Why the sophisticated expensive controllers?

[Deleted User]

said it better..... :-)

But, I would add that the maufacturers do it for the same reason a large male dog licks his testicle.

BECAUSE HE CAN!!

Don't make it right though...

ME

zeke

Why the sophisticated expensive controllers?

I questioned this in another thread but would like opinions on the following:

Why would you need control of temperature to the 0.1 of a degree, and the control literature talks about undershoot and overshoot, possibly of 1 degree as a BIG problem? And Bang-Bang and PWM for seconds and pulsing, etc, etc. The list goes on and on. What a snow job! Are they oversophisticating this market with inordinately expensive tools we don't really need in the name of "efficiency" and "comfort" or are these people using this for improved marketing and their bottom line? I will grant them that some of it is useful, but,on the whole, give me a break.

Where is the evidence that these controllers are cost effective or just "toys" that engineers who come from the aerospace industry and apply overkill techniques that were previously used to shoot down high speed missiles in space and control rockets and chemical plants? I hadn't realzed that thermal systems with huge time constants on the order of fractions of hours needed this pinpoint seconds control.They are talking integral and derivative and proportional control when on/off control can easily do the job sometimes with almost equal efficiency and more reliability at little cost.

Please show me where I am wrong.

zeke

Brad White

I would say

because accuracy of control is directly related to the ability to measure hence the better ability to anticipate and then react. When a control has a resolution of 1/10th of a degree, the PID and PWM control strategies can react that much sooner. One degree? 1/10th the accuracy.

Think of the stock market, a decision to buy or sell. Would you better manage your decisions by an end of week number, end of day number or real time number?

The controls we have today are derived from higher levels of control which were unthinkable 20 years ago, novel 15 years ago, expensive 10 years ago, commonplace in commercial work 5 years ago and now commonplace in residences today. I see that as a good thing.

Andrew Hagen

?

Which controls are too complicated? Are all electronic controls overkill? Are mercury thermostats, pumps, relays and aquastats all we need? How about modulating condensing boilers?

I think the market has already decided that Tekmar controls and modulating condensing boilers are extremely useful in the operation of hot water heating systems.

Steve Ebels_3

To a certain extent, you have a valid point Zeke

I had the "privilege" of changing a water coil on a Trane classroom ventilator/heater unit this week. It was an early 1993 vintage unit and was a virtual whorehouse full of relays, hydraulic cap tubes, actuators, dampers, motors, valves etc.etc.etc. I realize that newer units are probably (hopefully) not designed or built in this manner but........talk about designing a Rube Goldberg contrivance to address a simple problem...........It was unbelievable to me that it took a contraption like that to provide heat and ventilation for the classroom. Think how delightfully simple a rad with a TRV, plus a heat recovery ventilator would be. The energy efficiency and comfort level in the classroom would be in a totally different league, the maintenance would be practically non-existent plus the sanitary nature of those devices is head and shoulders above the Trane unit. Think dust, used gum, shoelaces, cough drops, pieces of sandwich and so on. Hard to hide those in a panel rad and much easier to clean if they do get in there.

While PID controls, mod con boilers and variable speed this, that and the other thing, certainly have their place, I remain a firm believer in the simpler is better philosophy.

Unknown

"Cost Effective"?

I don't know. Is it "cost effective" to let a floor get truly cold in october, instead of keeping it conditioned?

Is it "cost effective" to tell someone they can't do setbacks and it takes hours to change temperatures?

Is it "cost effective" to let the system pop and crackle when it starts heating?

Is it "cost effective" to let a mass emitter swing 3-5 degrees in room temperature?

How well do the 'bang bang' systems really achieve true comfort? Sure, you can heat a room. Does that mean you are really creating true comfort, or does the client just not know they could be even more comfortable?

Then we can start talking about function and cost effectiveness. How much is it worth to not fire the boiler every single time a thermostat wants heat (in fuel, maintenance, and wear and tear)? How much is it worth to be able to delay zones to fire in groups instead of whenever they like? How much is it worth to get your DHW priority in? How much is it worth to get some sort of reset in to get your water temperatures down for the particular boiler you are using?

How much is it worth to address every single thing in this post?

In some systems... not much.

In other systems... quite a bit.

The upcharge doesn't have to be a lot. When the upcharge is a lot, then you are bring a lot of things to the table, presumably for a reason.

Imagine you spend $1000 on top of the line electronics. In the system you are looking at, how much fuel would it have to save to give you a 5 or 7 year payback? 5%, 10%, 20%, more?

It all plays a part.

Weezbo

Zeke, dont think right or wrong on thiis stuff,

there are plenty of ways and means to turn out a quality heating system...there are also people who have balance points that they do their best to maintain or achieve...it is often blown by unless someone says, "i feel cold" when you might think,' i am sweating to death in this place'...and observe these things happening at the same time.

the controls over the years seem to have changed a bit... it is in keeping with the advances in various forms of mechanical and electrical incremental improvements .It did not "happen".it is from a combination of many people doing their work....

If you're able to buy something today, that you would like, by tomorrow there are ten greener ones ten faster ones ten shiney er er oners then if you Really Really would have liked a shiny faster greener one ,you can Got!

This is the way things go these days, one company touts We Don't Make any thing...We Just make it Better! now, after you go round around with that thought awhile, you finally make some sort of sense of it and you figure 'great ! my mind is bent now,... and i don't even remember what it was that i thought that they were talking about :)And Yet, You Remember, that's ok...'They make it better',... and its all Good:)

*~/:) sorry, i like doing that...that's comfortable to me and absolutely intolerable to English teachers.

deal is, when the control know that you want it to go to 70 and you set another for 69.9 and it uses a target within .1 from that, basically ,you have the controls behaving as though they were aware that things are changing "ahead of time" sort to speak. I think that works out like the American sidewalk light system (Ideally) yellow means 'ok...watch out somethings changing in the equation'.....these newer controls because they behave in the "Watch out! somethings about to change " mode, give some of the other controls a chance to get in line with what is Really going on

it is somewhat like MRS.Snipe lives up by the bus stop ..and she keeps a sharp eye on what is what...shes a cool neighbour...Window watchin Granny shes cool too she can tell you what time of day it is by the shadow on the side walk curb. If they see anything going amiss Hey buddy! the Young soldiers holding down the wall will be there immediately to sort That all out. the police...well, they might show up ... they might not .... maybe they would ... could be.. thing is , the little added satisfaction of having a slightly quicker response team gives everyone a little better sense of comfort in the neighbourhood. Cool?

This is for Steve, Holdin down the Wall:)

Thanks:)

Your dedication, to the evolution of the Hydronic control systems ,is un paralleled... in history *~/:)

Steve Ebels_3

typing this in bed

My Wall addiction has sunk to new lows (highs??) My poor wife has now given up all hope of a normal marriage between late night calls and now wireless connection to the laptop............but I digress.

I think an installer/designer has to strike a balance between 4 things on a typical residential job.

As NTR.Rob says, cost effectiveness has to be in the equation so let's call that number one. Especially since most customer buying decisions are driven by a budget number.

Next would be, in my book at least, system efficiency. Given the price of fuels and the background static regarding global warming/saving the polar bears, it's imperative to design the system to wring the most possible output from every unit of fuel consumed. Conservation of our resources and the ongoing operating expense has to be a strong number two and could easily be given the number one spot depending on customer priorities.

The third thing that I evaluate is the comfort level that the system will deliver to the customer. Keeping the home, business or facility at a point where the customer is not aware that it's too hot, or it's to cold, or too humid or dry, is what makes us technicians/engineers instead of hacks.

Lastly, we need to think about the reliability and serviceability of the equipment we are installing. Many times the selection of particular components can greatly affect this variable. Sometimes a situation will call for very technical control and sometimes a rad with a TRV will do just fine. In cases where either one will serve the intended purpose, the simpler device would receive the nod from me.

Maybe some of you have other criteria for system design and I'm sure these four don't cover all the bases but they are the basic ones I use. Please share your thoughts if I haven't covered something you think is important.

Perry_3

In 1978 Heathkit came out with the Modulus Stereo System....

It had an amazing claim: That it held sound distortion and background noise to levels better than the human ear could distinguesh.

For the first time... you could not hear pops, cracks, or other background sounds. For the first time you could hear the full dynamic range of a recording or transmitted signal.

For the first time... in any consumer electronic system... It produced music and sound with distortion levels better than the human ear could distinguesh....

Quite the accomplishment.

Today; if those numbers were published for a "high quality" sound system... People would laugh it right out of the room as how crude....

In consumer sound electronics we long ago passed the point where the human ear can distinguesh -- into a real where only laboratory equipment can tell things apart.

Yet, in the last 30 years... no one has produced a stereo sound system that sounds better than the Heathkit Modulus system; becasue we cannot notice the difference.

As much as I like modern electronic controls.... I think there is a point where what they are doing is overkill. I agree that regulating things based on 0.1 F increments is overkill and has no practical value (and as an engineer with a minor in controls... I suggest that the breakeven point is probably somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 degree on maximizing equipment performance).

But, it will continue becasue just like stereos they can show with laboratory equipment that it "works" better... even if us humans never notice the difference. I'll bet in 5 years or less the controls will be monitoring to 0.01 F or better. The technology already exist to do that as their are certain industrial activities where 0.01F is important; all it has to do is come down in price a bit.

Me, I'd just love to find an old Modulus Steroe System as the best of 1978 is just fine with me (and nothing will ever sound better).

Perry

Weezbo

You might like to check out the Caleffi Profile

it is sorta cool Perry.

i remember building a heath kit stero and disc with a ruby needle..in 68 or so *~/:)

And Talk about Transmitting a signal! I bumped it up a notch and turned it into a small radio station beaming out 50,000 watts of the North on the Christian Radio station:) was easy for a kid at the time:)
nearby radio station Loves me:))

Do you like the cooling on the lens of the orbiting telescope?

I would think it an honour to help put the heating and cooling in the next starship . "I'm Giving her ALL i Got Captain"

realolman

what're ya

gonna play on it? Yer Vinyl "albums" or yer 8-tracks.

I would like to respectfully disagree... to some extent

I have a digital recorder and there ain't no comparison to tape. With the sound quality , effects, editing, absolutely silent and precise dubbing capability it ain't even close. You remember the tape you used to see strung out all along the road? That's where it belongs.

My daughter plays a digital keyboard that cost less than $2000 that she and her mother on a piano provided all the music for two high school musicals... and I'm telling you it sounded great... through a couple of giant old 60-70's speaker cabinets and 60-70's power amp. left over from a two bit rock and roll band that I might have known something about.

Look at the computer you're using. I'd hate to go back to the old black screened > or OK cursor.

I used to think the sound of CD's were thin or weak or something compared to vinyl. I don't any more.


ANywho... I work with stuff that has been modulating gas for 40+ ( I don't know how long )years. I don't know why it took so long to get to residential stuff, but I'll bet it was the advances in electronics that did it. I guess you wouldn't want medicine cabinet sized "protect-o-glo"s and oil filter like "purple peepers" with 18" diameter Taylor chart recorders in your basement.

I hooked up a bunch of sensors to my bang bang boiler, wrote some software, discovered this and other websites, bought my very own electronic combustion analyzer, and learned very much about heating. I had a great time, and will be saving a little fuel and money, and just plain feeling better because I understand more.
None of which would have been possible without the technology.


Somebody will do something good with it. Somebody else will do something bad. I got a feeling things will be controlled to more that 0.1° in some respect... maybe just heating the area of the room that is being occupied... who knows? Maybe making you feel comfortable when it's only 50 °?

The stuff that's no good will fade away, the stuff that's good will stay. I personlly think Yamaha makes some good stuff... one time they made a speaker shaped like an ear.... I don't know what that was all about.

Gee, it feels like it's 71.8 in here instead of 71.9°

Is it overkill? yeah.

Oil is 2-3 bucks a gallon.

Do we need more? yeah.


Peace, love, and keep on truckin'

hr

You can still buy low tech controls

if you so desire. Plenty of cap tube type boiler controls and aquastats still in the catalogs. It is well know that they can vary in accuracy from 10- 15 degrees or more. Buy 6 and line them up and each one will regulazte at different temperaztures

When used on an indirect for example that could lead to a liability issue if they over temp. Or maybe bacteria issues if they are in-accurate on the low end.

Or lack of DHW if the differential is excessive and un-predictiable.

tekmar was one of the first to use thermistors and electronics to control temperature, in the hydronics world. their controls in my opinion, is not overly complicated or expensive, if we are talking basic tempersature control to within 1-2 degrees.Setpoint controls for example.

Of course the sky is the limit on complexity. Even computer interface to monitor and adjust from afar.

Point being, thankfully we still have choices. If cheap and un-predictable is your wish, it's still out there

hot rod

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Perry_3

Have you noticed...

That Vinly records are on a comeback. They sound better than CD - even the new advanced digital format. A vinly record holds something like 20 times the data as a CD for the same playing time.

So yah... Real audiophiles are buying tunrtables and vinly records still today. Don't believe it... Just look arround at what is being sold at the top music stores.

Why don't you hunt up someone who has the good turntable equipment with a vinly record and the same CD and compare sound quality. I suspect that you will be blown away.

However, my real point is that for each application their reaches a limit where the technology cannot really be effectively improved.

In electronics sound systems that occured in 1978. Any improvement beyond that can only be measured by laboratory equipment - the human ear can no longer note any improvement.

Digital control has limits (so does analog controllers). They must respond fast enough with small enough increments to properly control; but their is also a point where increassing the speed and decreasing the increment does not produce any better result. It doesn't matter if oil is $100 bucks a gallon. A 0.1F increment controller is not going to save you much of anything over a 0.25F increment controller. This is not a case where constant improvement buys improved performance. There reaches a real limit on improvement of the end process when dealing with control systems.

There are other technologies where improvement does still buy improved performance. General computers is one of those. But a modern digital desktop style computer is not normally used as a controller (and if it were it is a huge waste of resources). Also as you have noted they have developed a whole lot of neat compact sensors over what previously existed. So yes, improvements in various technology is real. But, don't confuse that with control systems.

Lots of industrial controllers still use the V20 chip developed about 1980 (the V20 is an improved version of the original 8088 chip). The V20 is pleanty fast and has a huge amount of capability. It's also very cheap.


Perry

joel_19

wow

Hey i bet you guys all drive cars with carbs on them, A.M. radios , bias ply tires and no A/C . I mean who needs all that stinkin stuff ? AntiLock brakes? Air bags? Seatbelts?

Don't tell me you have a color TV let alone one of those skiny ones,and what are you doing on a computer anyways when you can do all the math you want on an Abacus.

My home is infinetly more comfortable with it's sophisticated electronis package and we've got several customers who love the ones we've added for them. Not too mention lower fuel consumption.

Do we need them?? No nobody needs to be this comfortable but we can so why not?

Lets talk fuel efficency. The more we can cut down greenhouse gasses the better. Wether you believe the Global warming hype is inmaterial when it comes down to it wouldn't you rather BREATH cleaner air. Also remeber that every time your boiler fires up oil or natural gas that you are directly giving money to people that are activly killing young American soldiers and would beat your wife for not walking two steps behind you.They very much wish to dominate the world and are more than happy to do it with your money. if we where energy independent they could all go back to running around the desert cutting each others heads off,arguing about who loves god the most.Just like they where 100 years ago before we became addicted to the black stuff.

If you can do your part by selling and installing sophisticated controlls than the real question is why wouldn't you??

Spare the "homeowners can't afford it stuff"
Please, when was the last time you where in a house that didn't have multiple computers for familly members , Tv's, cars,boats,motocycles,guns etc. Even folks without any of that stuff could afford it if they just stopped smoking drinking beer.



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hr

The latest Jonh Mellencamp release was recorded on vinyl

first, then transfered to CD.

I heard an interview with Mellencamp on Sirius a while back and he still prefers the "sound" of a record. With the new album he feels he captured the record sound on a more sellable disc format.

Some great songs and lyrics by the way.

hot rod

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Andrew Hagen

simple

I love TRV's and FHV's. I prefer to design for global setback and let the thermostatic valves do their thing independent of the electronics. This may not be applicable to every home, but it works perfectly for most.

To me, a Vitodens with TRV's is keeping it simple, sophisticated, and uncomplicated. Just look at a Vitodens mechanical room versus a Vitogas mechanical room with Tekmar zone controls, and the difference is obvious. But that's just me...

...and where else but The Wall can you find the words "whorehouse", "relay", and "cap tube" in the same sentence? ;-)

Perry_3

Lets talk Fuel Efficiency...

I work in the power industry. We spend millions of dollars per year for fuel for each power plant. Efficiency is the name of the game way beyohd anything you guys think of. It is not uncommon to justify spending hunderds of thousands to millions of dollars to get even a quarter or half of percent of efficiency.

What you folks seem to miss is that digital technology has limits. Faster and smaller increments only improves things to a point.... after that, you get no improvement.

I drive a car with fuel injection - becasue it works better than a carborator. Yet, the rate that a fuel injectors "fires" has not changed in at least 20 years.... Because firing them faster does not buy improvement.

I have no problem with digital electronic controls - or even good analog controls (and good analog controls can control just as good or better than digitial - they are just expensive to build as they are custom to each application and cannot be easily modified).

My problem is with people who seem to think that just improving some response numbers actually improves system performance. In a range it works that way, out of that range it does not.

If you are cutting a piece of copper pipe - do you measure and cut to an 1/16 or 1/8 of an inch, or a thousands of an inch (or even a ten thousands of an inch.... I can get you a 10 Ft caliper that will accurately measure your piece of pipe to 0.0001").

More precise measurement will not improve your piping job or your efficiency on the job. Use of a common tape measure (that may be off 1/4" at 10 ft) works just fine.

There also comes a point where more precise mesurement and control does not improve the operation of a boiler and heating system. That's a fact.

I think that the question of why do we have controlers with theoretical increments of 0.1F for home heating systems is a very good question.

You folks can talk all day about how much better these are. Yet from a very real sense they do not control a boiler and heating system any better than a controller that would have an increment of 0.25F. All they have is better numbers - not better system performance.

Please note that I am not talking about the older controllers that were often at 5F to 10F accuracy.

On the industrial market - there sure are an awful lot of controllers out there with a 0.5 F and 1F increments. I assure you that factories are very concerned about energy usage in their processes and would buy better controllers if they actually produced better efficiency results. But, since they don't there is no reason to buy them.

Perry

Gordy

Perry is right !

About the sound. Nothing beats the rich sound of Vinyl. Digital sound has its limits. Once Analog warms up hold on to your hat. Talk to anyone who does music recording in a studio there is a huge difference between digital, and Analog. Advantage to CD not as suseptable to damage, and size.

Gordy

Couderay

AH another great thread

Yes sophistication and technology are great things every year they both get better. So when I used to go north and sit with my old transtistor radio, throwing another log on the fire and all the other simple things we had....GOD I wish I could go back.

bob_46

Electronic controls

Has anyone noticed that nobody approves electronic controls for use as a high limit?

Glenn Sossin_2

Resolution

Do you have HDTV ? More accurate reproduction - more enjoyable viewing. More accurate heat controls, more comfortable viewing.

Glenn Sossin_2

1978 stereo's

Yeah ---- and the music was better too.

Glenn Sossin_2

SX650

I still have my Pioneer SX650 and my AR Tower speakers. Still kicken just fine.

Weezbo

Check this underground Disc set up....

i think human beings do this stuff because our previous observation points have some unpredictable anomalies, therefore we change our points of view in an attempt to describe the results from a position where we can observe these anomalies and Predict the likelihood of future results in a comfortable manner. *~/:)

I am reading ...almost read ,...a cool book yesterday evening and a couple hours this morning...entitled...

FLUSHED

How the Plumber saved civilization .

*~/:)

realolman

I used to think the same way

Had my ol Pioneer, reel to reel, turntable,etc. One time, my wife bought me some new speakers for my birthday , and as I was hooking them up to show her how we didn't need them, I was trying to think of how I was going to tell her without hurting her feelings. I turned them on... and gave a kid my old speakers. You guys need to give some new stuff an fair listen.


I think a lot of "philes" make a big hub bub about a lot of subjective stuff that is all a bunch of self aggrandizing hooey. What would be on the vinyl or tape that would not be on the digital that your ears would be capable of hearing, besides hiss, pop, and scratches?



Re: heating, I think the only way any more improvements are possible is through technology.... probably mostly electronic. From where else would they come? I think even progress made in other disciplines is going to be dependent upon electronics for instrumentation and measurement.


Give me a thermocouple and digital controller over a mercury filled tube, variable orifice, and air motor any day. I would think it would have to be way cheaper, besides.

[Deleted User]

Uh huh... It's because...

The control manufacturers have no control over the control after it leaves their control...

That coupled with the fact that they can't "guarantee" that IF the control fails, it will fail in a "safe" manner.

I've personally seen mechanical controls that were supposed to fail in a "safe" manner fail in an UNSAFE manner, and I'm certain I am not alone in that observation.

Just another urban myth waiting to happen :-)

ME

Maine Doug_61

I imagine

the dog would argue this point.

>>>Don't make it right though...<<<

Steve Ebels_3

My cousin

Who worked for me when he was a young lad just out of college in electronics repair (back when a VCR cost $500) now owns his own audio business. (Amplified Audio out of Grand Haven Michigan) He sells and installs audio systems for schools, churches, high end homes and supplies sound equipment for various bands. He's on a first name basis with Matthew Polk of Polk Audio fame and does consulting and testing for JBL. He probably has $4-500K invested in audio gear, all of which would be audiophile grade to you and I. He used to be a 100% digital, transitorized, computerized, no holds barred, solid state type guy. Not so much any more. He's been telling me that more and more, the high end stuff is going back to tube powered amps and pre-amps. And studio recordings are done more now on tape than pure digital. The sound is more natural and warm. Where the digital stuff is noce is in the realm of mixing and effects, applied over top of an analog recording. Oh...........and yes.........vinyl is coming back. Mellencamp knows what he's doing. What goes around, comes around or as it says in Ecclesiastes, "there is nothing new under the sun".

I think the same is true of digital control on our heating equipment. As Perry has said, it has reached a point where improvements in comfort level can be measured in a lab but not detected by the human body. Further development along the electronics road as it applies to heating systems is rapidly reaching the point of diminishing returns comfortwise. Maybe cost and reliability wise also.

To me when considering the current crop of modulating/condensing boilers, there are virtually no improvements to be had in the realm of efficiency from the boiler itself. True, a design tweak could possibly raise the AFUE from 95% to 98% but at a reasonable cost? Hard to say. Digital control applied to most, or at least many older style heating systems will yield only marginal improvements in efficiency and comfort when compared to the elegant simplicity of a TRV system driven by any one of the many intelligent M/C boilers available today.

I agree with Andrew in his assessment of a Vitodens boiler room compared to any Cast iron boiler room choked with Tekmar and/or any other brand of aftermarket type devices. The best system form is a boiler with onboard intelligence driving a simple delivery system. That's my humble opinion.

hr

Is it because electronic controls

need power to operate? Cap tube controls just need temperature delta t to "move"

hot rod

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Perry_3

Vacuum tubed Amps never went out

There have always been companies producing vacuum tubed amps for high power levels. Electonics have never caught up to the capabilities of vacuum tubes for high power levels. Remember the recent thread on the fusion reactor at the UW Madison. The power circuit for it is controlled with a vacumm tube (at about $1 Million for that vacuum tube).

Lower power amps can be done with an analog electronic amplifier circuit - which work well up to several hundred watts. Unfortunately, many people fell for the "digigal" amp claim of superiority and simplicity which drove many analog electronic amps off the market. It just ain't so. A chopped, sampled, then reassembled sound stream is not the same as hearing the analog original. Compare any music on high quality sound systems: Master tape to Vinyl, Vs CD (even the higher sample rate CD) and almost everyone can hear the difference. Analog wins every time.

It does not surprise me that the music industry is dumping the digital amps and digital recording for the old style analog master tapes (I believe 48 tracks). Vinly actaully never disappeared entirely in the US, and was more popular in Europe and the Far east (its still a billion dollar per year industry outside of the US).

What I heard recently that it is moving from just selected albums in the US (several hundred titles per year) to a couple % of the music is now being released in a vinyl record format, with estimates that it could climb back to 5 to 10% of the "hard copy" music market as CD sales are being affected by MP3 file sales.

Several of the larger chains are beginning to restock new vinyl records now - even though the selection is limited to only several thousand titles per year at the moment.

But back to power amps and electronics. All digital ever did was try to mimic the analog equivilent. It never matches the actual performance of a good analog system. Digital systems are cheaper to build for most applications (except high power level amplification and control), and in the case of controls you can make a digital control work with many different things just by programming. Analog controls work only for the system they were designed for.


Perry

scott markle_2

Sensor Smarts

While .01 deg measurement may seem overkill, what is being missed here is what this level of measurement permits. These sensors look not only at change in temperature but RATE of change. No one is trying to regulate room temperature to .01 degree, but by watching changes in temperature at this level we are able to keep things within a degree or so of room target even with slow responding high mass emitters. This is not a snow job it's real progress.

And come on it's not that expensive, if your putting down a couple of thousand feet of tubing with all the related expense and believe that $1000 worth of tn4 is to much to spend.... Think again!

Weezbo

Comfort control.

Maine Doug_61

It must have

been really tiring to put all that stuff on the ceiling.
Very nice work!

Steve Ebels_3

And I would bet

The boiler is not approved for horizontal/sideways installation either! Condensate removal would be non asstisted by gravity

Nice install!!

Uni R_3

weezbo...

and after a few brown pops and crazy TV shows, Fluffy goes big game hunting

realolman

For my part

I am going to bag the analog / digital "stereo" discussion.

I like this site too much and the people from whom I have soaked up a bunch of information.


Zeke, (or anyone else) what kinds of things do you think would not be necessary, and what kind of improvement/ savings would result from not using them?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Heathkit Modulus

Would that be another name for the Heathkit "Pro Series" separate components? The 1978 date sure sounds right.

I have the pre-amplifier (STILL haven't run out of inputs despite VCRs, DVDs, etc.), active audio processor (dynamic range expander/noise reducer), graphic output indicator, octave equalizer, 125W and 250W amps. SOUND IS FABULOUS via a Yahama DSP-1 through Klipsch (front mains) and Ohm (effects) and Radio Shack (rear) loudspeakers.

LOVED building Heathkits and wish they were still available! All the Pro-Series stuff was discreet component--the only "chips" were for things like driving LED indicators.

zeke

"I love TRV's and FHV's. I prefer to design for global setback and let the thermostatic valves do their thing independent of the electronics. This may not be applicable to every home, but it works perfectly for most. "
--------------------------------------------------------

That is precisely my position. TRV's and outdoor temp setback and the necessary controls for modulation in condensing or non condensing units should cover 90% of the market with efficiency or comfort not compromised.

Do you always need expensive mixing valves and variable speed pumps and that Tn4-- and those outrageous prices for them, as suggested in the Tekmar literature? And three pumps plus zone pumps as I saw in the literture to promote their scheme.

On another note,as far as using the analogy of HDTV vs some lesser TV, I would say that if you can afford it and it gives you more pleasure, then go for it. However, if I were
selling to that old lady on a fixed budget, I wouldn't saddle her with stuff she can't afford or doesn't need.If she is 85 then how is she going to recover her initial investment in the name of efficiency? Just the basics.

I wonder how many of you HVAC pros out there have this fancy stuff in their own homes, even considering it would only cost you materials.

ALH_4

yes

I think TRV/FHV's are the most underused components in American heating systems. The control they provide takes very sophisticated electronic controls to replicate.

Jed_2

I would think

that manufacturers would have a bit more adaptive ability beyond what they "CAN" do vs. what they are "PROGRAMMED" by nature to do, as the poor, lowly, lovable cannine is destined to do. "BECAUSE HE CAN!!"?? How about "BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HE NEEDS TO DO"!!!

Jed