How not to install a radiant

Brad White_69

I am not a litigious person, Steve, (roughly one year of law school; another story) but with all that you have documented it would seem pretty straightforward even if it is "Back Documentation". The only snag is that there was an accepted award. The good thing to do would have been to reject it.

Did the HO have a lawyer? He should have advised not accepting for that can close further venues. (Along the lines of double jeopardy although this is civil -at this point.)

Because the AHJ and installing contractor have a standing relationship there is a matter of full disclosure and conflict of interest which is covered under state statutes. Was there a discovery period or interrogatory period? The $2K settlement seems like small claims court to me.....

I do not know Michigan law but here in MA there is an Inspector General's Office designed as oversight for public officials. (That here they could not find corruption and shoddy workmanship in the Big Dig however is a testimony to their willingness to hire the blind and deaf :) another story... )

Anyway, I agree with John T. regarding the grievance board but that may not obtain the relief the HO deserves. He was sold a house that does not meet State Law as you defined it, there are issues of the "Warranty of Merchantability" principle (whereby a product sold is deemed inherently to be suited for the purpose for which it is intended). The inspector, given his relationship to the contractor, should have recused himself or disclosed this especially in the court/arbitration session which happened.

There are issues regarding conduct of public officials to consider: Misfeasance (mistakes or abrogation of duty), Malfeasance (knowingly doing the wrong thing) and Nonfeasance (just mailing it in basically). Take your pick as I see it.

I would get him in touch with a good attorney with a sense of rage to match ours. See if you can get the previous decision vacated on grounds of non-disclosure during discovery (if even there was a discovery period), and lay out the entire case before another judge. Possible perjury? That could vacate the previous agreement and award right there, a good thing.

There are significant -obviously- documentable damages and consequential damages too (loss of use of his primary abode) and the remedy is to correct it. I would of course have the cost of doing so forfeited from the contractor, not have him do the work. The contractor carries insurance for some purpose I have to assume. All the HO wants is to be made whole. That is not asking too much...I am fuming obviously...

Your part, aside from being an expert witness is to keep the HO focused on any public statments being about the contractor not the technology....

Glad you resurrected this thread, Steve.

My $0.02

Brad

S Ebels

Sad radiant system, really sad

The Viessmann rep called and asked if I'd take a look at a very poorly functioning radiant system that happens to be attached to a Vitola. The fact that it's connected to a Viessmann product is why he was called in, but the poor boiler has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons the house doesn't heat right. The house is a beautiful log home with gyp poured in both levels wall to wall.

On the pic of the main manifold, the far left loop is the only one feeding the living room. It appeared from the floor temp readings that the tube spacing is about 16-18". Using that dimension to estimate the number of passes the tube makes in the room shows that about 800ft of 14MM Stadler pex is on that one solitary loop. That particular room has the highest btu/sq ft heat loss of any room in the house. The complaint is that the room won't heat, as in, it'll maintain about 55 degrees above outdoors when it hits 15 or less. Go figure!

Another problem related to the living room is the fact that the only thermostat for the entire house is located in it. HMMmmmmmm, I wonder why most of the rest of the house overheats? I always thought that one of the great advantages held by hydronic heat was the abiity to zone a house. Must be this installer didn't feel that way......

Also check out the breeching pipe. It's a testimony to the low flue temps from the Vitola that the duct tape is holding. Right! You read that correctly, DUCT TAPE! The condensation in the flue has ruined the clay liner and we'll have to drop a stainless one down the chimney. Note how the condensation is leaking from the bottom of the chimney by the floor, not out the breeching hole.

It's enough to make me want to choke the guy that put this in. To make matters even more difficult to comprehend, he was RECOMMENDED by the distributor that sold the boiler!!

I'm getting ticked off again just talking about it. I better just post the pics and you can see what I mean. This job is a waste of the finest high mass boiler made.

The installer came back to try and get the system to work via the typical method. Throw on a larger circ. The 0011 he has on the system can be heard screaming in the back bedroom of the second floor.

Pic 51 is the breeching

Pic 66 is the NW corner of the house showing all the glass in the living room

Pic 53 is the main manifold for the house, which by the way, is about 6,500 sq ft of heated space

69 shows the living room looking toward the lake, real stone fireplace and showing carpet that just compounds the problem with the radiant floor

Pic 60, Jason Hunt, Viessmann rep extrordinaire, and the living room fireplace. This georgous pile of stone is part of the problem in the room. Note the open hearth, there's a damper in there which was closed when we looked at it but we all know they don't seal up 100%. Gotta be good for 5,000 btu per hour loss at least.

The HO and I will have a heart to heart talk about what can be done to "fix" it.

Paul Pollets

Oh Well...

Sad that the best equipment went lacking for expert installation. I'm sure you're about to turn chicken **** into chicken soup....!!

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David Sutton_6

If anyone can fix it ,its you!!

you may have to do some grunting and tounge bitting but you make this system shine!!!

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Empire_2

Although I am new to Radiant floor...

I would be emarassed to leave any job even remotely associated with what I see here. Duct tape,.? The army can't be wrong!!!!!. Works on anything;-) Nothing organized here. "I'll bet the price was right, BOB"....

Mike T.

PS I can only look to train in the radiant field. Not to familiar at this point, but the Mess??? WOW!!!!!

J.C.A._3

Oh MY !

Good golly, what a mess . How do you fix stupid? (My old man always told me it can't be done)

So... Guru of the wet...what are the plans after getting the chimney fixed? Inquiring minds want to know. Chris

P.S. please quell the instinct to choke the installer....see comment #2. JCA

Constantin

Well,

... on the plus side, at least the LWCO seems to have been installed properly. The rest of the install makes me wonder if I couldn't do a better job. :-P

The leakage around the flue pipe is simply painful, never mind the tubing madness. Nice house though. I simply hope against hope that the rest of the infrastructure is not as botched as the radiant heating install.

There is a good reason that Viessmann is sending you in to save their face. You'll make that house sing with happiness, though I am not sure that the manufacturer's reputation with the HO's will recover from this episode... Either way, I hope they pay you well, because it's got to be darn frustrating to deal with this kind of a mess.

Lastly, I hope that the recommender will be forced to be your free personal flunkie for the length of the remeditation to ensure that he/she will know the difference between a hack that can't be even bothered to read a manual and a master of the trade. Argh!

Mark Hunt

Perfect example


of why no two contractors are exactly alike and no two proposal are alike.

I do not care WHAT equipment is being offered, the equipment is only as good as the last person to touch it. Engineering stops at the factory door.

Frustrating as all hell when a customer says, "Oh...the other guy is using (fill in the blank) just like you..."

Really????? "Just like me"????

We all know you can fix it Steve, just like we all know it should not have NEEDED to be fixed.

Burns me up!

Mark H

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Brad White_38

Resisting the Urge to Hurl

Breaks your heart. As Chris said, 'you can't fix stupid'...

The manifold hookup looks like a bulge in the pipe, nothing more. 800 feet of 14mm?

Excuse me, the Porcelain Bus needs a driver about now...

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Reminds me of the "problem" Grohe shower that the DESK GIRL at the high end showroom asked me to fix because she was tired of the calls. I made it work, but it still wouldn't perform to its potential because the HO didn't want to pay for a proper fix when he'd hired "the best plumber in town".

S Ebels

That's a good idea Constantin

The responsible party(s) should be the go pher/attaboy for the entire fix. IMHO they should be made to pay for it also.

Bill Nye_2

So , Steve?

So, Mr Ebels, what are you gonna' do ?

Could you do staple up under the gypcrete on the first floor? I saw ductwork, how about a hotwater coil?

Some panel Radiators or maybe big old cast iron radiators?

Maybe the 16 " can keep the floor warm if the room is heated to 70°. There oughta' be a law! The radiant police.

Rodney Summers

Holy condensation Bat Man!

EEwwWWWWWWW.

soot_seeker_2

PROPRESS!!!

Well thankfully all those gents out there (and maybe a few in here - however since we are all above average drivers I won't go there ) that are just a wee bit too rushed to wipe properly after a good solder can now rely on ProPress fittings to keep the Hall of Fame install shots separated from the Wall of Shame photos by a ot more than 8.2 years.

Thankfully, Mad Dog's gonna be a true outsider doing it the old way because it's better but only if you are a true craftsman and know how to clean up properly. It's all in the details. Maybe just until Hot Rod creates a robo-soldering wand and make himself many millions and then he buys a small boiler manufacturer and does the right thing for North America.

(this message was not spell-checked)


Oh and Dymo.com too...

S Ebels

Brad, here's the system piping

I think you'll have to visit the porcelain bus again after you see it. The 0011 runs constant circ and you can literally hear it wailing down in the crawlspace all the way up to the bonus room above the garage. I didn't leave any valves out of the drawing. There are none, save the two right off the boiler and on the returns on the first manifold. See any balancing problems with this layout? The piping is 1" entering the first manifold and reduces to 3/4" right downstream of it. (can't see it in the photos) The 3/4" line feeds all the rest of the house.

Constantin

Hey, that's not fair!

... not all of us benefit from HydronicCad... how about a PDF, JPG, PNG, etc. for the unwashed masses?

Pretty please! :^)

S Ebels

Hafta talk with the HO

But I'm thinking some panel rads in the living room. The Vitola has a mix valve on it for the floors and I can tap off the lines going to the DHW tank for an additional circ to run the panels. Even if I'd do a 4-way flow reverser setup ala HotRod and ME, there's just not enough tube in the floor to heat the room. Control wise, I'd like to split all the manifolds out somehow via circs or ZV's, in order to give the guy some control in the house. The problem is that all the walls are solid log so fishing a stat wire in them is no go. Maybe wireless stats.......... I don't know how far he wants to go yet, they're in Florida for a few more weeks. The tubing appears to be way heavy in parts of the house where it didn't need to be and light where the high heat loss rooms are. It's a mystery to me how the installer ever thought it would work in the first place.

S Ebels

I'll see

If I can convert it to a different religion but I've never attempted that B4..................

Sorry Constantin, Hydronic Cad won't let me save it as anything else.

Visualize this. A 1" pipe coming into the manifold shown in the picture. From there it makes a 90* turn and reduces to 3/4". Then it simply feeds through each of the following three manifolds. Between the 3rd and 4th manifold there is a ZV controlled by a T87 stat for the garage floor. Manifolds 2&3 have 3&4 loops on them respectively with 4 loops on the garage manifold. There are no control devices in the system except the TriMatik on the boiler and the t-87/zv for the garage.

Constantin

Ah, but there is your problem...

... you assume the installer was thinking while he/she was doing this. I think it's quite the opposite. A thinking person would have either:

• read the manuals, understood them, built a flawless system
  
• called tech support
  
• called an experienced fellow colleague
  
• etc.

Clearly, none of these things happened. As I see it, this install followed the "a boiler is a boiler" school of ineptitude, followed by the "oh drat, the circ must be too small" school of over-pumpitude. As the joints are holding, I presume whoever soldered this system together knew how to assemble joints but knew nothing about hydronic heating systems.

Never mind the judicious use of duct tape on the flue, which indicates an obvious desire to try a new career in a pen. It's a shame because much of the install does not show all the usual hack tendencies... inexperience is most likely to blame. But being inexperienced is no excuse to leave or install a system like that. The telephone, internet, and postal service were invented for a reason. i.e. giving people the opportunity to become educated no matter where they live.

[Deleted User]

Steve, heres how to share a Siggy Drawing

With the drawing centered on your screen, push the Shift key and the Print Screen key. Now start MS Paint. Click on Edit, Paste. THe screen shot is then pasted into the paint program. Save As a JPEG and then you can down load the JPEG to the Wall.

ME

[Deleted User]

Mark...

The next time a customer tells me "So and So Plumbing said he uses German boilers too..." I want to say "Oh yeah, which one, cause I'm going to QUIT using that particular boiler because HE now does"

Too bad we can't dictate who sells what to whom. A rotting shame as evidenced by Steve photography. This HO doesn't realize how lucky he is to even be alive and still kicking.

There OUGHT to be a LAW against this kind of stuff.

Maybe, some day when a senators family member becomes mortally wounded or worse we can expect some action. Until then we ALL suffer from jobs like this. The burned consumer tells ten people, who tell 20 people who tell 30 people and so on and so forth... Bad news travels FAST!

ME

thp_8

Here Stevie

thp_8

Stevie did it look like this

S Ebels

Yous' guys are so darn smart

I know pipes and boilers and stuff like that but when it comes to makin' the computer jump through the right hoops........I'm as ignorant about that as the dude that installed this boiler system.

Thanks Tom!

ME, I'll look n see if I have this paint thing on the computer. Do they come with that program or is it something you buy extra?

Constantin

Irfanview is free...

... and you can manipulate to your hearts content! See Irfanview.com to get your own copy. As for this system, I hope those "distribution" pipes are still accessible. That, in conjunction with proper circs (like a 15-58 ea) should do the trick for the "overheating" parts of the house.

I wonder if the HO would be amenable to you opening up the floor to reduce those loop lengths in the great room by 1/2. Sure, it's more work than hot rods 4-way switcharoo wonder, but it's also very simple... considering how rare these switchers are, I'd only install them in an area that I either serviced regularly or knew that the HO would tie their heating future to my business. Otherwise, I'd KISS.

A two-stage approach for the great room may still be necessary as you note due to exposure, tubing layout, etc. Considering the type of home you're dealing with, you could consider the very unobtrusive basboard rads from hydronicalternatives. With a two-stage stat, that could be the end of the room worries in there.

As for wireless t-stats and the like, that's a great approach. Honeywell seems to be selling wireless systems that can control 3 zones. Seems perfect for your application.

Brian_18

From a DIY perspective....

Please, don't misinterpret my comments, as I know all of you Pros who converse here are not of the same (low) caliber of the installer of this mess. But for me, this is exactly why I continue to be a DIY guy. Even if in the end, I decide to hire the job, at least I am educated enough to know if a proposal is real, or "smoke". I'm sure these poor folks have some legal recourse, but unless they decide to rip it all up, and start fresh, they will settle for a compromise. I was once talking to a roofing company rep., I made the comment that I felt that 80% of construction materials are NOT applied to manufacturer's instructions. His reply, "the number is higher than that". Scary stuff for un-suspecting home owners.

[Deleted User]

If you have Windows...

it comes as a part of the package, usually found in Programs, Accessories, Paint. Or there are hundreds of free paint type programs on the net. Siggy actually had a program I think it was called Screen SHot that essentially does the same thing for you.

ME

Plumdog_2

paint program

The info you can find on this site is astounding. I went to find my free Paint and found out that I had not used it in 534 days and therefore I lost my free license to use it. To buy it could cost $179-379. The Irfanview is free but I'm reluctant to download something from Austria. Whenever I download something it doesn't work right. 500 horsepower stuck in the mud up to the axles going nowhere in Colo.

Constantin

Well,

I guess you cannot be helped then? :-P

Irfanview has been used by me and many others here for a number of years w/o a hitch. Putting a geographical bias on anything from the internet is an interesting perspective. Are you afraid of virii?

Weezbo

*~/:~{

That is hurtin for certain.

Mark Hunt

I downloaded it @ C-Net


after reading this thread.

Not sure why "country of origin" would be a deciding factor.

Mark H

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Plumdog_2

yes; virii

not that it makes much difference on my system; which is dial-up only and takes hours to download anything of significant size. I was able to order the Paint in a box for 79.00 dollars.
Don't get me wrong; I love Austria. I just get paranoid downloading stuff because it never seems to work as well as when I slip in a disk and let'er rip. You must forgive me for being so ignorant. My 6 yr. old grandaughter is more computer literate than I am.

Brad White_9

Well, Steve, the lunch *was* good

Sorry I did not see this until just now. Small wonder...

The design set Hydronics back to where it was during the James Polk Administration. Maybe even pre-Revolution.

mikea23

wow

Thats a good one
Its funny every time my phone rings and its a rep saying can you look at a job for me It scares me. I think my first 10 calls from reps I felt proud and thanked them it feels good when someone that sells a product asks your advise. now I just say HOW BIGS THE CUSTOMERS CHECK BOOK.
One day I hope there will be a MASTER HYDRONICS license More and more I get told so and so had radiant in there house and its nothing but trouble now I dont only have to defend my prices but radiant heat its geting kinda old

GH

RADIANT DONE RIGHT

When does radiant heat done right get started? .When are
standards going to be used for proper performance and
efficiency ? Guess after enough Lawers get enough work
from bad radiant jobs. Then what ever radiant contractors are left after the high premiums we can join the LPA
(legal panel association) . Thats whats next I think.
Let me know what you think. WWWGCSRADIANTHEAT .COM

S Ebels

Finally met with th Homeowner yesterday.

The HO got home from Florida last week do I drove up to meet with him and see if he could furnsh some details about this project. Did he ever have details. He had a whole photo album of the construction project which included some nice detail shots of the tube layout.......It is truly beyond belief.

Picture this in your mind if you will. The rough dimensions of the house are probably 38x50. The tubing was laid out as pretty as you please making the loops nice and easy to see and count in the pictures. The installer simply ran the tube up out of the crawl space where ever


(sorry, duaghter #1 walked in (the one with the radiant fireplace) and I had to show her the pics.


Back to the story...

The boob simply ran the tube across the length of the house from wall to wall, with no thought given to zoning it by room. In other words the same loop of tube runs through the master bedroom, the master bath, the laundry, part of the living room and part of the entry. Then he just poked another loop through and continued on down the line with that, repeating until he ran into the opposing wall. There is no indoor feedback control whatsoever. The T-stat I saw on my first visit was A/C only. (The A/C system is a whole 'nuther story, it'll maintain the house at about 5* below outdoor ambient!!)

Now here's the REALLY good part! THE TUBE IS SPACED ON 24" CENTERS! I kid you not. Now I understand why there are only 7 loops of tube serving an area of about 2,800 sq ft.

I ran a quick heatloss on the living room while there and it came up to 38 btu's per sq ft. Try to get that out of a floor with carpet on it and tube run on 24" centers. It's not going to happen unless I convert the thing and run steam through the pex.......

I was just plain at a loss for words to say to the poor guy. The dupe that put this in was highly recommended. The HO actually took the time to go and visit another house he had done in the area, right on Lake Huron, and that HO was very happy.

Turns out after quizzing the HO a little bit that the only people there laying the tube were a couple of young kids who were unsupervised by the contractor. The gyp crete guys were pouring on one end of the house while the tubing was being laid in the other side. No inspection was done prior to the pour. No pressure test was done nor was anything checked for kinks or crushing before the gyp went on. This is a clear cut code violation here in Michigan.

Which brings us to another good part. The HO told me that the mechanical inspector is a brother in law of the installing contractor. Hmmmmmm, I wonder why this job passed its Non-inspection?

So after all was discussed and a remedy proposed. The HO looked at me with eyes a lot like those of my old Bassett Hound and said, "I took the guy to court and basically lost. I was awarded about $2,000 because the judge said I couldn't prove anything". The judge also said that from the paperwork he had seen, it all passed inspection. Plus the distributor was there testifying that all was done in accordance with their plan and layout".

So that's my question to the Wall. Does this guy have any recourse at this point? It's already been through court but the guy was basically bringing the suit himself as he had no witnesses on his side. Just his word against the distributor, the contractor and the inspector. All of whom appear to be in cahoots with each other. The only thing that I can see at this point is that the code book here in Michigan clearly states that a heating system shall be capable of providing 70* temps inside at design conditions. The place doesn't even come close. Are there any lawyers reading this? Please chime in!!

I get really ticked off about jobs like this because of what the HO said to me when I drove up. He said, and I quote, "I will NEVER recommend a radiant heating system to anyone". "This High tech Viessmann boiler won't even heat the place". They have to be the worst thing out there." Needless to say, he felt a little different before I left. But still, how many people has he dissed Radiant heat to in the 5 years since this atrocity was perpetrated on him? What kind of a black eye does that give to radiant heat and to our trade. I'd like to see the dolt that did this pay through the nose somehow.


PS Here's another good one about this job. The HO bought a Viessmann Vitola which was spec'd by the installer. One day after the heat is running, the HO goes down into the crawspace and there's a standard CI Slant Fin boier hooked up to his system. No Vitola in sight! So he called a raised some heck about that. The installer comes back in about a week and hooks up a Vitola. Turns out that the Viesmann is one size smaller than the what the installer spec'd, so out goes that Vitola and they put in the size listed on the bid. The Slant Fin is still sitting in the crawlspace. I also have a gut feeling that they left the same burner on the larger Vitola instead of upsizing it to match. (That could be why the flue is condensing so badly now that I think about it.) Have to check that out.

Anyway, just wanted to bring an update about this job and see if anyone had any thought as to how this guy can get some of his money back.

John T_3

State Inspector

Steve,

The HO should file a complaint with the state grievance board. I'm not sure how they would handle it since it passed inspection, but it certainly sounds like something the mechanical division should be involved in.


John T.

Custom Climate Systems, Inc.

Dexter, Michigan

Unknown

I'm biting

I'm biting my tougne on this one til I get my thoughts in order about those damn so called inspectors

Constantin

Agreed...

Accepting that award might have precluded the HO from collecting any further. On the other hand, if the inspector and his BIL can be found to be negligent for accepting the layout, not testing, etc. then perhaps that'll either cost them their jobs or make them more vigilant in the future.

I also question the judgement of the judge claiming that the system as installed meets specs, etc. An expert like Steve or Brad would have been an excellent team in addition to a lawyer... this is big bucks, I don't understand why the HO elected not to retain counsel and expert witnesses over something that could cost thousands of dollars to remediate.

Speaking of which, wish me luck in front of the Building Review Board here in MA with the local FD... that should be coming up next month!

As for the HO and his system, it sounds to me like you'll have to run the Vitola on two temperatures with a little bit of sideboard panels to give supplemental heat. Those baseboards from hydronic alternatives come to mind. A 2-stage stat then gives the supplemental heat as needed. These 2-stagers can then be put into rooms as needed where the radiant simply puts out baseline heat.

That way, you can cut in and out of the radiant system in the crawlspace to achieve the right lengths, even if you cannot zone rooms or zones efficiently. Make sense? Best of luck Steve, and I hope that you can fix this system so that it works and that the people are happy.

JK_3

Add my thoughts

It is a very unfortunate situation for the home owner but even more so for those of us that are professionals. It is these type of situations that give home owners a bad taste about being ripped off. Then when we try to sell the right job at the price needed to do the right job they are even more afraid. when Installers like that are recommended my manufacturers and suppliers then even having the recomendations becomes useless. It is the same as the scam repairman in that the consumer becomes leary of all of us and starts to accept the mentallity that if they are going to get ripped off it should at least be the lowest price. Good luck to you and the home owner. Hopefully he will realize that you are the best value and will only charge what is nessasary to do the right job.

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S Ebels

Update

I called down to the State Mechanical Division and talked to one of the head inspectors there, explained the whole scenario as I understand it and asked if the HO should pursue this any further. He felt that if things happened as I have been told, the HO definitely has a legit complaint. His feeling was that despite the issue being "settled" in court with the contractor, there are obvious gaps in the responsibility of the local inspector. Even though he is hired by the county, he still has to abide by the state and local codes. I'm going to give the HO a call and relay this info to him.