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Home owner
don_156
Member Posts: 87
The appoach layout by Timmie will keep you from getting your butt spank.It also keep your foot in the door on the
sale of a new furnace.
sale of a new furnace.
0
Comments
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Gas lock out
I was called a few days ago by one of my mechanics. He was at a home with a old gas fired furnace the chamber had a big hole in it. He turned it off and called me to stop by look it over and come up with A replacement estimate.
I got there told my mechanic to disconect and cap the gas line going to the unit informed the homeowner that the system was not safe and needed replacement. My company does not install hot air furnaces and gave him a few referals.
He then told me that I need to turn the heating system back on his family was there and cold. I told him I just cant do that its unsafe and could kill someone with CO gases. The temps in the area where 10 deg that day I offered to drain the homes domestic water and winterize the home but he would need to go to a relitives home or hotel till the stystem was replaced or repaired. He then called me every name under the sun. I then locked out the gas meter and called the Local gas company and informed them of the situation.
The next day the local building inspector called me and told me that I have no right to do that and if I didnt rectify things with the homeowner he would start fineing me. I also got a call from his lawyer telling me I damage the system so I could sell him a new one.I dont even install furnaces I dont do any tin work.
Is what I did wrong how can I let CO get pumped into the home from every air duct and have no liablity.Has this world gone nuts this homeowner should have thanked me. The only fee I recieved was a service call and he probably stoped payment on that. I stood to gain no profit here from replacment.
Mike A0 -
looks like you have
Looks like you have two a**holes here and the building inspector is the bigger one... Make sure his name and whomever he works for is on any lawsuit if he's dumb enough to go any further... Several times, I've condemed heating systems, capped the gas line and disconnected wires to same... If I don't get paid, so what, I won't in in the lawsuit as I didint get paid but I'll sleep better...0 -
Your not kiding
What I didnt put in my post was. We where not called there for no heat it was a leaking faucet. The wife told my mechanic that her co detector went off last weak and wanted him to look at the furnace her husband said it was fine and it was only the detector itself bad. We fixed the faucet then he looked at the furnace. The building inspector said we had no right to look at the furnace.
I am starting to think the inspector and homeowner are friends. I tell ya I have had it with this BS
Mike A0 -
No.....
....good deed goes unpunished.0 -
You did nothing wrong
and that "customer" should be thankful.
As far as the building inspector, I would ask him if he would like put his "order" down on paper. I would then send it to the local papers and TV stations. Let HIM explain it to the public.
Good job!
Mark H
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What Mark said
is the best way.
Someone needs to explain to the HO and inspector what exactly all that actually means.
I would have most likely done the exact same thing.
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You did okay with
capping off the supply of gas to the furnace. In fact as an expert witness on many gas cases over the last 40 years the courts will not accept just shutting off a switch or gas cock as "making it safe". You must cut off the source of fuel (oil or gas) to the equipment.
Here is an alternative however to leaving them without heat. Purchase a couple of electric heaters to have on hand for just such a situation. Keep them stored in your shop so all techs have access to them when needed. That way you can give them heat until the new equipment is installed. Then go back and pick up your heaters for the next time.
Did you test for CO? If not how are you sure that the furnace was the problem? If a combustion test had been run on the furnace you would have documentation as to your findings for when you go to court.
As to shutting of the gas meter that is a little extreme and technically even the gas company cannot shut off all the gas when the problem is just the furnace. Now they have no hot water, cooking, dryer etc. The courts may have a little problem with doing that,at least that is the way it is here in the northeast.
Did you "RED TAG" the furnace and document exactly what you found? It is a good idea when red tagging to follow up with the customer by sending them a registered letter advising not to use the equipment as it is unsafe. If they choose to be ignorant of their own safety then you are not liable.0 -
think of it this way....
what would have happen to you if you DID turn the heat back on then got a call from the coroner's office asking why you didn't shut them down?....0 -
Been there done that.
Have had HO's promise to repair items then did nothing after I walked out the door, gone to the inspector but they cannot do much. They do not even have right of entry anymore all they can do is put a letter in the file of the property.
Have shut down equipment just to have someone else turn it on after I leave.
Best thing to do is get the utility down show them the hazard and they can lock the service.
Nothing in the code gives us authority to lock out a service all it says is we must have the equipment running safely, it does not address a responsibility of action if it is unsafe.
Lost alot of sleep over some of the situations I have tryed to help people through but there wallet got in the way.
Timmy is wright about the documentation.
Think of what the inspector, lawyers and media would be doing to you if you left it running and someone got hurt.
Good luck.
Mitch S.
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The code doesnt give us authority but if you as a profesional dont do somthing legaly you are liable0 -
Funny how it works that way
You are screwed if you don't and you are screwed if you do.
I often base my decisions on how I can best defend them in court.
Not by mechanical ability.
Mitch S.
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If you have a lawyer
you need to consult him or her NOW. It sounds like you're up against a well-connected jerk and will need some legal ammunition. I would have done exactly the same thing your company did, but this clown is looking to get a free furnace out of the deal at your expense and needs to be stopped.
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well Mike and Mitch
As Timmie suggested. ---Your Honor I disconnected the furnace because my CO meter reading was off the chart and with my flash light I could see a hole in the combustion chamber. Hopefully the HO's lawyer will calm him down. best wishes J.Lockard0 -
replacing radiators
Since this last cold season in Chicago I could use some help. I had the thermocouple go out on my boiler and some of my radiators developed cracks. Can you tell me how difficult it would be to change them out? I have done other plumbing jobs around the house but this would be a first.
Or should I opt for using a product like a liquid weld/glass to try to plug the small cracks in the radiators?
I have tried to find older hot water radiators to replace the 100 year old ones that I have but size seems to be an issue-I'm having a hard time getting actual replacements and I have custom cabinets that I still want to use.
Any help would be appreciated.0 -
Still haven't seen anything in writing that allows me to disable a customers system. I guess you guys have different rules to go by. Even our State Inspectors won't disable. Too much liability with no legal leg to stand on. Just tell them the dangers, have them sign off and pray for the best. Until I get something from a legal AHJ stating that I have the right and responsibility to disable equipment I simply cannot do it. It is a terrible spot to be in, but we all choose our paths.
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We just had a conversation on this very topic.
The sad part was the outcome.
We have no right ( Other then Moral ) to turn off a system.
If we turn it off and there are damages because we shut it off. We are liable.
If we leave it on and the happy HO croaks we are up the creek and the HO is dead
Our solution
If we find a problem that warrants shut down.We provide tempoary heat if we are doing the repairs. If we are not doing the repairs. We have the HO sign the invoice which states there is a problem and the equipment should be removed from service. We also call the building inspector to notify him of a hazardous condtion and he removes the equipment from service.
We as contractors are placed in a no win situation.
David
> I was called a few days ago by one of my
> mechanics. He was at a home with a old gas fired
> furnace the chamber had a big hole in it. He
> turned it off and called me to stop by look it
> over and come up with A replacement estimate.
> I got there told my mechanic to disconect and cap
> the gas line going to the unit informed the
> homeowner that the system was not safe and needed
> replacement. My company does not install hot air
> furnaces and gave him a few referals.
>
> He then
> told me that I need to turn the heating system
> back on his family was there and cold. I told him
> I just cant do that its unsafe and could kill
> someone with CO gases. The temps in the area
> where 10 deg that day I offered to drain the
> homes domestic water and winterize the home but
> he would need to go to a relitives home or hotel
> till the stystem was replaced or repaired. He
> then called me every name under the sun. I then
> locked out the gas meter and called the Local gas
> company and informed them of the
> situation.
>
> The next day the local building
> inspector called me and told me that I have no
> right to do that and if I didnt rectify things
> with the homeowner he would start fineing me. I
> also got a call from his lawyer telling me I
> damage the system so I could sell him a new one.I
> dont even install furnaces I dont do any tin
> work.
>
> Is what I did wrong how can I let CO
> get pumped into the home from every air duct and
> have no liablity.Has this world gone nuts this
> homeowner should have thanked me. The only fee I
> recieved was a service call and he probably
> stoped payment on that. I stood to gain no profit
> here from replacment.
>
> Mike A
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START A NEW THREAD FOR BETTER RESPONSE0 -
You did the right thing...............................
Morally, ethically, and liabily. I've done the same thing in several situations, one time having to get physical about it. I would NOT LET THIS GO AS IT IS CANCEROUS behavior on the bldg inspectors part. I would demand to see the statute and get a copy. They won't be able to produce it. This is over-stepping on his part. If it goes further, obviously, you will need an attorney well-versed in this area. You did the RIGHT THING. This too shall pass. Mad Dog0 -
Timmie,
I have somewhat similar sentiments yet, hear this out as a solution...Tell a homeowner that they have a choice,...turn it off and leave it off
turn it off and have it replaced/repaired
let them know that you will file a report with the local Fire Marshall and should there be an incident that they will be held criminally and civilly responsible...
remind them that as a contractor your job requires far more than twisting a wrench,that part of our work is based upon the fact that we are the authority having jurisdiction when a county muni state or city official is not present. give them no quarter, let them know that it is not violating their civil rights it is a case of protecting the community around them. i lay that card on the table with major corporations. i have no compunction to bow out when i see something that endangers the people in the building or the surrounding neighbourhood.0 -
HO
The company I was with 15 years ago got sued and lost. The mechanic turned off the system after finding the chimney lining collapsed. The flue was loaded with tera-cotta, sand and brick. No draft. He shut off the furnace and disconnected the low voltage wires. After he left the HO or someone reconnected the wiring and turned the unit back on. The result was 2 pet birds in the house died and the HO got sick. The judge and jury said the Mech. should have done more to disable the system. The HO knows nothing about the sustem (enough, however to reconnect he unit)and knew not of what he did. The Mechanic was the professional on the job and he and the company bore complete responsibility for someone else reconnecting the system and turning it back on. So, your case was a total no win. You would be stuck no matter what you did. Expect no justice from the legal system. Our boss even sent a letter to the HO insurance company, who never responded. the moral is, you can make something foolproof, but not damn fool proof. As far as the inspector is concerned, all I can say is he obviously did not get his job on his merits. I have seen so many of those guys get the position strictly by political means. Some do it part time. Their real jobs have nothing to do with the building or safety trades.0 -
Years ago the attorney that has represented me for years advised me this way. When I go on a call and the equipment is working, but I find an unsafe condition that warrants replacement or significant work, leave it running, but have the owner or landlord sign the invoice that very clearly states what I found and did about it, and that the owner is aware of his liability and responsibility.
If the equipment is not running, leave it that way, and make the owner sign off as above.
Obviously, both scenarios require the service man to ascertain whether the unit is safe before tearing it down if at all possible...get good with the combustion analyzer, sniffer, a flashlight and a mirror.
He also has me keep a rough time sheet so I can rebuild a day on paper. If a claim results, every phone call gets logged with name, time, and details. I will do very little on the phone with an aggresive customer...I just calmly tell them to kindly make any further calls to my attorney...which almost always puts a stop to a stupid claim. If the claim is serious, but not aggressive, having the calls fielded by the attorney keeps everything civil and keeps me on the road paying his fees, which are very resonable compared to Rolaid Smoothies for breakfast.
Following this protocol, I have never had a claim go to court. The facts are that 2/3 of the homes that I get into have a lawyer on speedial because of a divorce...and they have nothing at risk for trying to scare me into paying or saying something dumb. It pays for me to stay out of the fight and do what I do best...letting my guy do what he does best.
If I were you, I'd call an attorney yeaterday, and I'd make a time sheet tonight, with any supporting paper you have, pictures, industry standard protocols, etc. that led you to do what you did. You acted in the best interest of the occupants of the home, there is no higher standard, although the practicality of the matter gets fuzzy in the legal end of things.
One more thing...never, ever forget this customers name.
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Here's what we do
Upon discovering a furnace with an obvious problem we first take pictures then drag the HO into the basement and show them. We do a copmbustion test and print it out twice, one copy for the HO and one copy for our records. After informing the HO of the problem we disconnect the furnace or what ever the offending applaince may be and install a temporary heater in the basement, This is just an unvented 30,000 btu heater that we have set up on a stand. We advise the HO that this is just temporary heat and they need to replace the furnace ASAP!!. We also encourage them to seek other opinions if they want and to seek other bids if they are going to replace it. If they choose us for the replacment there is no charge for the temporary heat. If they go with someone else then the charge will be $xx.xx depending on a few factors. We have nwever had a problem and neither have we ever lost a replacement job to someone else when this happens.
I guess the rules would be to treat them and their property as yo would like to be treated yourself. Disabling the equipment and walking away is not something that you would like someone to do to you, is it? That being said, if you don't handle replacements in house, I think you fulfilled your obligation by recommending some other contractors to take care of them.0 -
let them decide
I have only run into this a few times. I totaly agree about having space heaters avalible for peaple in this situation. I keep three 1500 watt heaters on the truck for this reason. Most of the time they are just for when the furnace needs a part that I wont have for a while. The one time a homeowner got upset about having his furnace shutdown I had him sign the work order that showed why I was disconecting the furnace. At this point he starts to get pissed and says it was working when you got here you mean to tell me I have to go with out heat know. (just a maintenance) So I showed him the disconected gas line and the unplugged furnace. I was very clear that running the furnace could cost him his life but he could get a wrench after I leave and be up and running two minuts after I leave. He calmed down and told me he would call us. We installed a new furnace two days later the gas was still disconected. I felt that this was the best I could do and that we were covered.0 -
Space Heaters
I do wonder about your liablility if the space heater malfunctions or is abused while in the customers house and something catches fire or someone gets burned?0 -
Maine Ken
The code doesnt put anything like this on paper but Legaly if we dont disable the sytem and someone gets hurt you are CRIMINALY resposible.0 -
MAD DOG
Trust me I am not leting this go. A building inspector has no power to demand anything from me that is not writen in his code. The inspector is hoping I will do what alot of other guys do and bow to him as an authority.
Inspectors are just like us there are a few good ones and a few bad. Unfortanatly most times just like with plumbers the bad ones get away with it. I have spoken to the State of NY they have a dept that test and licenses them hopefully with them and my attorney we can get this resolved. Maybe this guy will be in the papers like a few where last month.0 -
Mike A
What part of NY are you in ?
David
Norwich NY0 -
ken
I didnt think of that. now im getting paranoid. they do have a high limit and tip over switch in them. mabey those portable electric base boards would be better. they stay cooler and are harder to tip. kind of big for the truck though0 -
One thing I do do on a pre season checkup
Is get a waiver signed, they can accept a combustion analysis and if the unit does not pass they have given me written permission to shut down the unit.
The same waiver includes a place to sign refusing the combustion test and on the back side gives the peramitors we are looking for.
see attached
Mitch S.
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One thing I do do on a pre season checkup
Is have the HO sign a consent form accepting or rejecting a combustion test and stating what we will do if it fails
On the back side is the peramitors we are looking for.
We post the form at our web sight so the HO can down load read and sign it before we get there.
Mitch S.
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What "crime" would that be? Show me the Statute please. There is none! However if you disable anbd someone freezes to death you are criminally liable. I f you disable and property damage occurs you are criminally liable. Here in the Great State of Maine you have no right to disable someones equipment. And if you do disable it, you had better be providing heat and hot water for those you have shut down.
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It is interesting to
get all of the various answers to this very difficult situation. Let me however take a moment to tell you what the courts will do in 99% of these situations. I have been involved in seven cases in three diferent states as an expert witness on similar cases.
The courts will state that failure to make the equipment fuel source totally disconnected and unable to be used will result in liability on the contractor. They have stated in all seven of these cases that capping off the fuel supply and documenting same with a follow up registered letter is sufficient to protect the contractor and remove liability.
I want to go on record here in stating that any unsafe condition that will endanger life, limb or property demands that the contractor act in the best interest of saving lives. Shut it off,disconnect and the lawyers, homeowners, inspectors be damned.
I sleep a lot better nights and pay a lot of insurance for protection and my lawyer is a "barracuda" in court.
Our job is to save lifes and protect the health of the public and the legal system and local code people better get their heads out of their butts.0 -
its the path you chouse
I have come down that path before I now take a different path I am not the bad guy turning off there equment I in form the owner of what could happen. than i walk out to the truck and call the fire dept. I ask them verry nice to come down for a second app. most of the time they will come down I then walk in to the home telling the owner the fire dept wants to take a look just in case there is a fire so they would know about it. one look he calles the gas co they arrive and turn off the gas to the furance and tag it if its oil he will close the oil line all ways wrighting up a report. now if the owner turns the unit back on and there is a fire or soot or co2 am off the hook (I act dumb) the next day i do the replacement smilling like roses.0 -
It is known as Criminal negligence
it is somewhat akin to playing with fire.0 -
Hey Weezbo I am looking for Maine Criminal Statute number and section. Don't bother looking, it doesn't exist. I have checked not only my statute books, but I have asked prosecutor friends from both the Attorney Generals Office and the District Attorneys Office. Apparently Maine is a bit different from other States. Here the Homeowner has a few more "rights" than we as technicians do.
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Excellent topic
I intend to take this thread with me when I attend the Michigan Mechanical Inspectors annual state meeting later this month. I'd like to get their individual and/or collective opinion on this. I'll certainly let you know what I hear.0 -
Ken, I have to ask this
If a customer had a gas valve that would not shut off (Passing)and the potential for an explosion exists do you need a law to allow the safe shut off of that equipment?
The truth is there are very few codes that have anything to do with service and the few that do are very limited in their scope. This is for a good reason as the technician is allowed to exercise discretion at the job site to insure public safety. There does not have to be a statute for that. What you get nailed for in court in all the cases I have been involved with is criminal negligence.0 -
In my area
The gas company shuts off unsafe appliances and disables them. Liability is the reason. I do the same. I'd rather be sued for frostbitten toes or inconvenience than by an estate. That being said, I will provide a space heater(s) if it's necessary and the people are nice and understanding.0 -
documentation required
One of the more troubling responses, was the one you got from the local inspector. (S)He is seen as an authority by the homeowners & having the inspector take this stance will increase the difficulties you're facing. I'd start by politely asking the inspector why they reacted as they did.
We keep about two dozen small electric heaters to loan out under similar circumstances. Most homeowners are understanding, and appreciative, once we explain what's going on. The few who get irate, are mostly upset about spending money they had not planned for or might not have at their disposal on short notice.
It does sound as if you've run aground on dead-beat freebie-reef! Tim's certified letter is an excellent suggestion. You'll need to be proactive and take the lead.
We were in Florida this past week & the Miami Herald ran an article on legislation requiring CO detectors be installed in all hotels, resorts, etc. following the death of a tourist last year.
Lots of great advice in this thread.
0 -
Thanks John
Let us know0
This discussion has been closed.
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