Dangerous!! -DF

Dave Yates (PAH)

Interesting threads

Jerry,

After reading a number of the threads, I can agree to one thing - a great deal of education needs to be given/taken/assimilated & understood. The numerous threads reveal a deep dearth of understanding codes and what constitutes proper PHVAC installations. While the pictures here are glaring examples of work that’s so wrong almost anyone can identify they’re dangerous, your BB is chock-a-block full of questions and pictures where the HI’s should have known the answers if they were truly pros.

The thread "Possible water heater problems. CO > 100 ppm" is a glaring example of what's wrong with the HI industry. The lack of education and training BEFORE posing as "experts" is appalling. BTW, car exhaust will have much greater concentrations of CO.

I can appreciate your efforts at educating the masses, but it’s like locking the barn doors after the horses were let loose. Your industry needs a check up from the neck up. Standards and education must be beefed up and a cleansing of sub-par inspectors desperately needs to be done if the HI industry is to thrive and survive or garner the respect it desires.

In my industry, we aren’t given a Master’s license and turned loose to learn as we stumble along. Very few of us consider ourselves experts. We’re constantly faced with evolving technology and methods for keeping our customers safe, warm and healthy. We serve years-long apprenticeships prior to being able to obtain a Journeyman’s license and then must work for an additional two years before being permitted to take the Master’s exam. Even so, we still have oversight intended to police our industry. If a licensed plumber violates the codes, their license can be yanked by the governing body.


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Timco

Jerry,
You mentioned in some cases you would shut down an unsafe system...Is the first photo one of them? The inspector, WHOEVER and WHATEVER cert he holds, did not shut it down or call authorities. I believe it is that act of allowing a human to continue to possibly kill themselves that warrents the hacking on him. This is not a case of "well, they used a galvi 90 and aluminum pipe...." This is clearly a darwin award winner, and should have been shut down that second. I would not have spent another second in there without killing the system, and allowing it to air out. I see Sally Struthers bragging about people getting their home inspection license all the time on daytime TV for people who have no prospects or career, but she stops short of offering a hydronic/HVAC license. If you are soooo qualified in all the fields you mentioned above, be our guest and take the next "won't heat" post, or "furnace keeps running" post, or would you prefer to have a look at their systems and point out that the service cover is ajar and site that as unsafe...and make what...$500...$800...for that brilliant observation. Leave the pros alone. THEY are the real deal.

T

Jerry Peck

Dave,

"Even so, we still have oversight intended to police our industry. If a licensed plumber violates the codes, their license can be yanked by the governing body."

As a Stated Certified and licensed General Contractor, along with my other State Certifications for my inspector license, *I* am fully aware of what you saying. They did not come easy nor quickly.

THAT SAID, there are very few licensed contractors who screw up big time who lose their licenses UNLESS THERE IS ALSO serious enough economic losses to get an attorney involved.

Yes, Florida (where I am) DOES punish some contractor, but it does not do so often enough, nor with enough punishment to make the other contractors think twice about not doing those things.

Also (and I know some have compared my certification to those of that 'free on-line home inspector association, and mine are not, they are full state certifications after rigorous learning and testing), I have the same certifications as municipal inspectors have (typically, though, they only have one, I have to maintain all of mine), and, being as they are also issued by and through the state, we (them and me too) are REQUIRED to address the code, and THEY (being in their official code official and inspector positions) are REQUIRED to ENFORCE the code.

One of the biggest problems we (home inspectors) run into is work done by contractors which was not done to code, nor did the code inspectors inspect it to code.

Now, you are probably thinking - 'there you go, assuming that the work was done by licensed contractors' - well, it is not an assumption. I am referring to NEW CONSTRUCTION, and (at least down here in Florida) that means "licensed contractors".

As a Licensed General Contractor, I am required by my licensing (as all licensed contractors are) to AT LEAST meet the code requirements (the code is, after all, only a "minimum" level which MUST be met, no ifs, ands, or buts - code is the "minimum legally acceptable level of cheapness"), yet, even being required to AT LEAST MEET CODE, they do not do so.

As one Licensed Contractor to another (I am assuming you are also a Licensed Contractor), we both know that licensing DOES NOT mean quality work, experienced and qualified workers, not does it even mean MINIMUM ACCEPTABLE work (meaning 'does not mean it even meets code').

There are builders and contractor all over who advertise and brag that their work 'meets code' and 'we build to code'. All those contractors are saying is 'I build to the minimum standard I am legally allowed to get away with' - THAT IS ALL CODE IS.

Now, if you want to discuss 'quality', or even 'good' work, that means "code" is not referred to, it is recognized only as a 'required minimum starting point'.

Now, back to another point you are taking issue with: that home inspector must know it all about all issues. No, home inspectors must know enough about enough issues to be able to determine what is 'not good' and then to recommend 'qualified and licensed contractors'. By your standards, home inspectors would have licenses in all trades, and they you would not be needed.

When YOU know ALL and EVERYTHING of YOUR ONE LIMITED profession, and YOU are considered the 'go-to' person for your trade, then, and only then, are you in a position to downplay home inspectors for not knowing everything in YOUR trade, even then, you will not be in a position to degrade home inspectors for not knowing everything in every trade.

WE (home inspectors) KNOW *we* do not know it all, but we keep learning. IF *YOU* are interested in helping, excellent, come on over and "help" us. IF YOU only want to degrade home inspectors, you should first learn everything there is to learn about your SINGLE profession and trade. Then limit your degrading comments to 'home inspectors do not know all of the ... trade'.

When YOU know it ALL, then you can do that. In the meantime, if you are more than just mouth, then come over and help us learn.

Mitch_4

HOLY ****!!!!

Albert Huntermark

Unrelated-related question Ted!

Ted, I was looking over the photos of the deadly flue "octopus" on the two water heaters that you posted. I can't add anything about the way those yokels did the flue work!!! What can we say! Something else in the photo peaked my curiosity. In my 28+ plus years as a plumber, I have never seen those fittings with the black tops on the waterlines on top of the water heaters. What are they? In my day, I have changed many a water heater and never ran across a one! The 3/4 ips x 1/2ips x 1/2c tee in which it is screwed into used to be a popular item in our area, on water heaters in the 50's and 60's prior to having a seperate port, a 1/2" relief valve was installed there. I saw a few relief valve removed and plugs in there place!
amhwrite

Plumdog_2

I saw something very close to that

on a display board at the big Home Center. The title of the display was "How To Vent A Water Heater". In the next aisle over was another display board showing all kinds of incorrect ways to install DWV. I give up.

Jerry Peck

Tim,

Yes.

"The inspector, WHOEVER and WHATEVER cert he holds, did not shut it down or call authorities. I believe it is that act of allowing a human to continue to possibly kill themselves that warrents the hacking on him."

Oh, so it is okay to hack on him because you (we, none of us) knows what he did? Or that we know what he did not do? So, you KNOW he did not call anyone? (That inspector may not have, but we do not know that, or do you? And what about hacking on the licensed contractor who installed that, let's make that assumption too.)

Seems to me that you are making some big leaps based on incomplete information. I sure hope you make sure you get all the information before you make your repairs on whatever you are working on. Leaping to conclusions can cause one to be overworked walking back to where they started from. But I guess any exercise is good exercise. :-)

Jerry Peck

My turn to ask a question.

I am having a brain fart here, but when you enter a horizontal run, you enter with a wye, and when you enter a vertical stack, you enter with a sanitary tee. Correct?

If that is correct, that makes that wye entering from the left of the photo incorrect.

Also, the CSST gas line is not properly supported, secured or attached.

Bill_24

amhwrite

Those things on the water heater are vacuum relief valves.

Bob Harper

God syndrome

David Yates, I hate to say it but my stock in you just dropped WAY down after your attacks on Jerry and the home inspectors. I read your articles regularly and have been impressed with your knowledge and desire to further learning in the PHVAC industry. However, after reading your posts, I came away with an overwhelming sense of your arrogance, self righteousness, self importance, and being downright nasty. While you may have risen to the top of your profession, and I'm not doubting that, you obviously have lost any humility. To hear it from you, guys who "paid their dues" so to speak by climbing up from trade school to master are the only ones above the level of plankton. I invite you to take a stroll over on www.hvac-talk.com and read just one day's worth of chat over there from all the "professionals". Look in the Wall of Shame-- a forum made special because there are so many hacks in your industry. Every week I read questions from guys who have been doing HVAC for many, many yrs and, from their questions, don't have the first clue about certain basic things. Even when you point out the applicable codes, they invariably tend to rationalize there failure to meet code. Everyday you have guys trying to rationalize going against mfrs. specs., codes, and listings. That's why there are so many hacks. It is tolerated.

In my work, I come behind PHVAC men every day and in almost every house, I see problems. However, unlike you, who obviously gets a rush from putting others down, I try to minimize their short comings by telling the homeowners things like, 'oh, those ducts leaks that are causing the backdrafting are not required to be sealed in some jurisdictions' when what I really wanted to say was that ASHRAE 62.2 calls for sealed ducts, provisions for makeup air or proof of adequate passive infiltration with a blower door test showing 0.35 ACH min., that the missing cover for the filter slot is a code violation as it requires an interlock with the gas control, and the lousy leaky ducts are inhaling dank, foul air and distributing it throughout the house because the tin knockers are low wage and unsupervised. Or, how about all those boilers and furnaces that get changed out without even looking into the chimney to see if it is blocked, rotten, or oversized? Where's the cleanout on most oil installations? Look where they put the test hole for combustion testing. Why do they install water heaters taller than the chimney breeching?

Don't get me wrong Dave, my industry along with home inspection, carpentry, painting and most any other trade or profession is so full of apathy and incompetence you wonder how the country holds together. But it does. Because there is still a group of people with pride and ethics that continue to attend courses, trade shows, seminars, etc. and improve themselves.

So before you go about bashing people who are providing a very valuable service and are constantly trying to improve themselves as evidenced by their participation in these online chat sites, why not take a look at yourself and ask what are your real motives? Is it because you really care and want to help people or just build a bigger name for yourself. Shame on you for misusing such valuable knowledge and experience!

You may be an expert in your field but I'll bet water still has to be frozen before you can walk on it.

Dave Yates (PAH)

Bob,

> David Yates, I hate to say it but my stock in you

> just dropped WAY down after your attacks on Jerry

> and the home inspectors. I read your articles

> regularly and have been impressed with your

> knowledge and desire to further learning in the

> PHVAC industry. However, after reading your

> posts, I came away with an overwhelming sense of

> your arrogance, self righteousness, self

> importance, and being downright nasty. While you

> may have risen to the top of your profession, and

> I'm not doubting that, you obviously have lost

> any humility. To hear it from you, guys who "paid

> their dues" so to speak by climbing up from trade

> school to master are the only ones above the

> level of plankton. I invite you to take a stroll

> over on www.hvac-talk.com and read just one day's

> worth of chat over there from all the

> "professionals". Look in the Wall of Shame-- a

> forum made special because there are so many

> hacks in your industry. Every week I read

> questions from guys who have been doing HVAC for

> many, many yrs and, from their questions, don't

> have the first clue about certain basic things.

> Even when you point out the applicable codes,

> they invariably tend to rationalize there failure

> to meet code. Everyday you have guys trying to

> rationalize going against mfrs. specs., codes,

> and listings. That's why there are so many hacks.

> It is tolerated.

>

> In my work, I come behind

> PHVAC men every day and in almost every house, I

> see problems. However, unlike you, who obviously

> gets a rush from putting others down, I try to

> minimize their short comings by telling the

> homeowners things like, 'oh, those ducts leaks

> that are causing the backdrafting are not

> required to be sealed in some jurisdictions' when

> what I really wanted to say was that ASHRAE 62.2

> calls for sealed ducts, provisions for makeup air

> or proof of adequate passive infiltration with a

> blower door test showing 0.35 ACH min., that the

> missing cover for the filter slot is a code

> violation as it requires an interlock with the

> gas control, and the lousy leaky ducts are

> inhaling dank, foul air and distributing it

> throughout the house because the tin knockers are

> low wage and unsupervised. Or, how about all

> those boilers and furnaces that get changed out

> without even looking into the chimney to see if

> it is blocked, rotten, or oversized? Where's the

> cleanout on most oil installations? Look where

> they put the test hole for combustion testing.

> Why do they install water heaters taller than the

> chimney breeching?

>

> Don't get me wrong Dave,

> my industry along with home inspection,

> carpentry, painting and most any other trade or

> profession is so full of apathy and incompetence

> you wonder how the country holds together. But it

> does. Because there is still a group of people

> with pride and ethics that continue to attend

> courses, trade shows, seminars, etc. and improve

> themselves.

>

> So before you go about bashing

> people who are providing a very valuable service

> and are constantly trying to improve themselves

> as evidenced by their participation in these

> online chat sites, why not take a look at

> yourself and ask what are your real motives? Is

> it because you really care and want to help

> people or just build a bigger name for yourself.

> Shame on you for misusing such valuable knowledge

> and experience!

>

> You may be an expert in your

> field but I'll bet water still has to be frozen

> before you can walk on it.





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Dave Yates (PAH)

Bob

Sorry if I offended you and I'll apologize to Jerry as well. I've visited HVAC-Talk many times and read through many threads. Interesting board, but my time is limited for visiting internet BB's & I haven't visited them for some time.

If you had read my column regularly, you would have read my two-part expose on the home inspection industry that exposed the problems I confronted Jerry with. The problems I detailed were also exposed by a TV news investigator's report in Pittsburgh shortly after my column appeared. The reporter, his father, the news station's janitor and other friends of his all took the on-line inspectors exam and passed! Jerry admitted the charges were accurate.

If you'll back up a bit, you'll find it was Jerry who started the spat. I got my hackles up too quickly and didn't give Jerry the benefit of doubt. Arrogance and the other attributes you've assigned don't fit, but passion for my craft and freely acknowledging I'll always have more to learn are correct.

It ticks me off when others who lack the training and knowledge we've worked long and hard to gain pass themselves off as experts in our fields. I too attend numerous conferences, training seminars/schools and strive to pass that along by teaching whenever possible.

As for the licensed hacks getting away with "murder" where installations are concerned, that's supposed to be caught and enforced via codes officials - fodder for another story. If HI's catch legit problems, that great, but too many (read Jerry's BB for examples) make pronouncements in their reports that are wrong. Those same "defects" detailed cause a great deal of stress and expense for property owners.

One of the problems detailed in my expose dealt with the lengthy list of exemptions HI licensing agencies grant themselves. The homeowners I interviewed were not given that information and were shocked to find the very things they thought were being checked were ignored instead. The felt their trust had been violated.













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Bob Harper

Thanks Dave

I appreciate the more conciliatory reponse. If everyone in the trades had your ethics, passion, and drive, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I think the Nat'l Certification you are referring to is one run by a character who is a loose cannon. There is no consent within their industry (I'm not a home inspector)as to National Standards and there's a simple reason-- the industry is still in its infancy. When you and others on this list were first cutting your teeth in the trade schools and turning wrenches, the home inspection industry was being born. Early on, some well meaning guys got fried when they got into too much detail. The damn lawyers pounced on them exploiting every opportunity. If you went into a lot of detail in one area, then why not others? It became apparent, you had to literally be an expert is EVERY aspect of homes or you'd be in court more than on the job.

Let me try an analogy: You go to your family doctor, who diagnoses a problem then refers you to a specialist such as a cardiologist or surgeon. Your doc didn't know nearly as much as the specialist but at least he knew enough to point you towards the guy who did have the answers.

Most H.I.s I know do a pretty good job picking up on problems with the mechanical systems. They find overloaded breakers, disconnected bonding straps, plugged/ missing TPRs, etc. When they have questions, they wait until they get back to the office to check some references including codes, textbooks, websites, and fellow inspectors or specialists in the trade in question. That sounds to me like they're looking out for everyone's best interest to get it right. Again, he didn't build the house and make all those goofy repairs. He just calls it into question.

AS I tried to point out in my first post, for every David Yates, there are 100 hacks. That's my personal perception based on coming behind them.

So, if the H.I. is so frought with incompetence and lack of training, what can you do about it? Well, we can sit on chat sites slamming them or we can meet with them. I've attended several meetings with the local ASHI chapter and was asked to make a 4 hr. presentation at their annual training conference. If you want to be part of the solution, I think it would be appropriate to offer yourself as a featured speaker at both local and national events. I recommend you go with open ears and be willing to walk a mile in their shoes before passing judgement.
Thx

Dave Yates (PAH)

offer stands

Bob,

Arlene Puentes asked me to do that a few years ago for a Baltimore HI convention, but our schedules conflicted. Otherwise, I'd have been there to meet and address some of the issues.

No doubt I only get to see the inspections gone bad. But, I've seen far too many. I've seen the stress this puts on owners of real property where listed defects either don't exist (like the one where a HI using a combustible gas detector had the owners freaked out that their home was about to explode - no leaks were present. The gas co & I spent hours checking every single joint and performing a disconnected high-pressure test.) or the obvious was overlooked because the HI had no clue. The wife was in tears: the husband furious: they had added expenses as a direct result of the HI report & the HI refused to reimburse them.

Another analogy: If I posed as an expert installer of heating, but failed to mention I don't do ductwork or the supply piping on hydronic systems, I'd be deceiving my customers every time they hired me. I'd know going in that they assumed I'd be giving them a job that totally encompasses all aspects because I would have positioned myself to promote that image. When questioned, I could produce a blanket exemption list that I’ve granted myself for all I'm not responsible to complete in any given scenario. Top that off with an insurance policy protecting me from any omissions.

Now, on the other hand, if I were to present any potential customer with my total disclosure of things not included and/or didn't bury that in a bunch of mumbo-jumbo designed to numb their senses, I doubt many would hire me to install their heating systems.

If a prospective customer had to deal with a wholesale house in order to obtain a heating system and the supply house only gave out names of contractors who paid to be on their list – knowing full well there were professionals who would provide a completed installation, but that giving out that info might cost them the commission on goods sold - and that took you back to the beginning of this analogy - that too would be something I'd view as unethical.

Lawyers! Some of my best friends are lawyers (seriously - through Scouting and others as customers). They freely admit their profession is part of many problems we see. My yearly insurance bills alone would allow us to purchase two new trucks - for cash - and hire several additional employees – every year. And that’s absent a single claim against my firm – in 105 years of doing business. No doubt hacks have contributed to these costs, but frivolous lawsuits have played a larger role. If British Law rules were ever to be placed in effect here, you'd see a dramatic reduction in lawsuits.

100:1 ratio? Don't know, but I sure hope that's skewed. As I admitted in posts above, it's a real problem that exists. The majority of PHVAC contractors I know and that I've met during Comfortech Roadshow events and at seminars, conventions, trade association events, etc... are honest, hardworking, ethical men and women striving to keep abreast of the rapid changes we face every day. Almost without exception, I've found these trades folk to be a humble group freely acknowledging there's more to learn than we'll ever be able to assimilate. I get a bit stupider every day that passes. The more I learn, the less I seem to know. But, that's also what draws me back in each day and will until I cease breathing.


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Jerry Peck

\"If I posed as an expert installer of heating\" - YOU ARE

Dave,

"Another analogy: If I posed as an expert installer of heating, but failed to mention I don't do ductwork or the supply piping on hydronic systems, I'd be deceiving my customers every time they hired me. I'd know going in that they assumed I'd be giving them a job that totally encompasses all aspects because I would have positioned myself to promote that image. When questioned, I could produce a blanket exemption list that I’ve granted myself for all I'm not responsible to complete in any given scenario. Top that off with an insurance policy protecting me from any omissions."

YOU ARE an "expert installer of heating", right?

WE (home inspectors) DO NOT pose as expert installer of anything.

We pose as "generalists" (like your family doctor Bob referred to) and do a "visual inspection", kinda like that family doctor, a little probing, finger up the butt now and then, but if you need, or want, much else, you will need a specialist.

"If you had read my column regularly, you would have read my two-part expose on the home inspection industry that exposed the problems I confronted Jerry with. The problems I detailed were also exposed by a TV news investigator's report in Pittsburgh shortly after my column appeared. The reporter, his father, the news station's janitor and other friends of his all took the on-line inspectors exam and passed! Jerry admitted the charges were accurate."

There you go again, Dave, that would be like me saying that the PHVAC industry is full a quacks and no-nothings. YOU referred to ONE national association, and I agreed that that ONE national association was a rotten apple in the home inspection profession - then YOU go and say "you would have read my two-part expose on the home inspection industry" when you are really only referring to ONE national association.

Guess old hacks just get grouchier?

Old, *did I lump YOU in with your industry*? Gosh, sorry.

See what I mean? Not only does it sound stupid when *I* say it, it sounds just as stupid when *YOU* say it (lumping entire professions and industries together based on some bad apples).

YOU many be very good at what you do, and to hear Bob tell it, you are, however, with an attitude which lumps an entire profession together with ONE bad national association, like Bob, that causes me to lose some respect for you.

Then again, you will probably say you don't need my respect, which would only point out that attitude problem even more.

Ted_9

Sorry, i was reading this thread in a while.

Yes vacuum break.

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Jerry Peck

final note of agreement

Dave,

"My intent wasn't to ... slam an entire industry, but rather to point out there are some serious issues that need to be addressed. ... Ones that don't appear to be governed by anyone with sufficient authority to reign in problem inspectors."

With that I, and many others, are in full agreement.

That is why I have worked 14 years (since 1991) trying to get home inspectors in Florida licensed. Last year was finally supposed be "the year", and the second time we had licensing legislation on the governor's desk (one other time back in 1993 or 94) ... I am now leaving the fight for licensing up to the younger guys, I will be retiring from this profession in 1, 2 or at most 3 years.

Here is to hoping that real and meaningful licensing will occur for home inspectors, and by "real and meaningful" I do not mean the watered down stuff pushed through by the largest national association - their goal is 'well, if you met our membership requirements, you are a good inspector' (kinda like what that other national association also thinks about their members, the one with that free on-line test ).

Take care.

If you and Mark (or others) get a chance, come on over and help us learn, thanks.