Dangerous!! -DF

Dave Yates (PAH)

It's time we let this post pass on and fall away off The Wall. I apologized previously & do so again. My intent wasn't to tick you off or slam an entire industry, but rather to point out there are some serious issues that need to be addressed. (I could have stated that much better than I did.) Ones that don't appear to be governed by anyone with sufficient authority to reign in problem inspectors. We have the same issue with inspectors governing our own trades who have no one to answer to and sometimes stray far afield of the codes intent while abusing the powers granted them. Getting a PI inspector removed from office is almost impossible – regardless of numerous abuses of power. Been there & did that.

The only reference I made to "one" organization you referenced was an on-line exam I took & passed. That, by itself, did not grant me a HI license. There was also an ethics and some other exam to take, which I also passed. Pretty easy since the answers were provided in literature on the site. But, there were other conditions and tests that I did not take, such as the several home inspections I would need to perform and have reviewed and a fee of several hundred dollars I would be required to submit. Was the test too easy? Lots of people outside the HI industry found it easy to pass.

The remainder of my concerns are industry-wide and should be addressed - in my opinion. If there is a rogue organization within the HI industry (as you've indicated is the case) giving you all a black eye, that's up to your industry to flag or sanction.

I have a great deal more respect for you and the HI industry (as a whole) than you'd imagine. No doubt, you feel much the same regarding an inspection with blatant omissions or incorrect findings as I do when I'm confronted by some image of horrible work that was installed by a licensed contractor.




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Robert O'Connor_3

Unbelievable

Take a look at these photos but you will not believe what you see. This job had repairs done by a home warranty company and was just inspected by a home inspector.

Where to start? The water heater was originally a sidewinder using PVC vent pipe. This was recently replaced with a standard natural draft water heater. They tied it into the PVC vent!!!!!??

The boiler had 40 PSI pressure on it when my tech arrived. Someone had replaced the pressure relief valve with a water heater T&P rated at 150 PSI. There were other wiring issues not to mention the Plex-Vent vent pipe on the boiler.

This job was an accident waiting to happen. Someone is lucky to be alive - yet we are the bad guys for shutting it down! unbelievable. -DF

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Mitch_4

OMG!!!

Talk about deadly! They should be eternally grateful to you,and suing the company that did those atrocities.

Thank you for saving lives today.

Mitch

Jeff Lawrence_25

yuck!

"That powervent WH is too expensive, can't you do something cheaper? We're about to sell this house and don't want to spend any more money than we have to!"

The people that did that are what gives our industry a bad name, regardless if it was the home owner or a professional (hack).

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John McArthur_2

Glad no one died from that mess. I especially love the vinyl vent on the boiler. :-<>)

Constantin

You're not the bad guy...

... you just saved another house and its occupants. So, you're quite the opposite. It takes guts to do the right thing, yet this was not a marginal call...

Scenes like this ought to be documented and forwarded to the local inspectional supervisor so that the inspector who signed off on this madness is reprimanded, then trained to do his/her job right, and finally put on probation until he/she has proven him/herself to be worthy of being an inspector.

kevin coppinger_4

what was the...

CO level in there? kpc

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Dave Yates (PAH)

looks like

purple primer works as a fire retardant too! Sure would love to see the home inspector's report and which organization they're affiliated with. Errors and omissions insurance co they use would no doubt be interested too. It's far too easy to become a "nationally certified home inspector". Hells bells, I passed the test on a Sat morning in less than an hour's time - without studying in advance - and I have no business being a home inspector! The test is not proctored, which means anyone can take it for you and cheating by looking up answers is possible too.

Then there's the clown who did the actual work. No doubt unliscensed, which no doubt means no one will prosecute the bum. Just go after the licensed contractors is the mantra around here & this is what we can expect to find when hacks get a free ride.

Same thing was done (twice that I know of) in our area.

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Mr. Bill_2

Reference

Dan, I hope you saved these pictures. The next time someone says your price is to high, you can show them how they can save a few bucks.

Shawn Bisgrove

Wow, what idiot ever thought this was safe should be locked in a garage with the car running. Even if no one died from this it would sure be interesting to see how much CO2 was in the living space. Thanks for the pictures...

Weezbo

Dan ,it must be the purple primer...

clouded the installers judgement and maybe just maybe the inspector was in the room at the same time .... that is scary for far more reasons than one can walk up and See.

those dont appear to be long sweep drainage fittings ))

Ed Lentz_2

OK I am a HO and even I know that is a disaster!!! I have a friend in the inspection business, around here (Michigan) he says that all they can do is point out the bad stuff. And they aren't supposed to quote code or are they under any liability for missing something. Way to go shutting that down!

Albert Huntermark

The probable scenario!

"Dem plumbers charge too much money" The homeowner's handyman buddy laughed as they shopped at the local home center that Saturday morning. "Look, we can buy the better heater and still be half the price than that guy wanted for his."
"He tried to tell me that I needed some special water heater, can you believe it, what B.S." the owner added.
"Why buy a new relief valve for that boiler, hell we'll just put the one from the old water heater on it." "It still works," his buddy explained.
"Ya, the guy told me I needed a special one for that too." "Of course that would cost more than a regular one!"
It's hard for me to believe that a professional would have done the things in the pictures. If one did, he/she should be jailed. It had to be a homeowner/handyman job. Don't get me wrong, I am not against homeowners doing jobs in their own homes if they are done correctly. But in this day and age, what used to be simple water heater replacement job, is not so simple anymore.
Its also a shame that both of these got by a "certified home inspector." Very scary indeed. The inspector only new that plastic pipe is used on venting, but didn't know or look closly enough to see that this was not a side vent heater that uses plastic exhaust. As for the bolier relief, the inspector new it required one, but didn't know about or look closely for the correct rating. This further fuels the fire, (no pun intended!) "what's dat expensive plumber trying to pull now?" We now have to try to explain that what is in there is not only wrong, but in this case extemely dangerous. After all a "certified home inspector" didn't say anything about it. The inspector dropped the ball on this one. However, I had a case where a "certified home inspector" stalled a closing at the last minute because a couple of panels on a garage door were peeling and need repainted, "very dangerous situation," possible lead paint. Can't let that one slide by. Not to make light of the dangers of lead paint, it is bad, but these "certified home inspectors" need better educations on some of things that pose a more immediate and potential catastrophic danger like in those photos. Hey at least purple primer was on the vent!

jerry scharf_3

a claim against the home inspection company

Dan,

Since this is far beyond not being code, and it was not picked up by the home inspector, I don't think the new HO should be out a nickel. They should file a claim against the home inspection company and the prior owners for trying to kill them. If they get it fixed for near free in the long run, it might make the people happier.

Ask them whether they have experienced flu-like symptoms off and on since living there. Long term low grade exposure is not well researched, but there are clear indications of permanent brain impairment in some cases.

Also, send the HO here. Maybe they can understand the degree to which they should count their blessings eevry day that it was you and not another hack that walked into their basement.

jerry

Timco

The inspection company / installer must have seen white plastic sticking out the side of a neighbor's house and assumed that's just how they vent now...and never would have suspected that indicates a whole different type of system. "Codes change as people realize that lesser materials can do the same job!!!"

T

Kyle Kubs - Benchmark Home Inspections

As a Home Inspector that spent most of his previous life in the building trades I unfortunatly have to agree with you about the skill level of most of my competition. But hey, what great advertising they are for me... The other problem here is the buffoon that actually did this work. I see this all the time from these home warrentee companies, just like the "garbage depot" the job goes to the lowest bidder and we all know his skill level - "uhm, Yah! I can do that..." Similar situation six months ago the seller had a home warrentee and the water heater went out a week before my inspection, the company covered it and had it replaced. I get there and fire it up... Burner is orange/yellow, more exhaust gases pouring out the diverter than going up the flu. Put a smoke pen to the boiler diverter (while the boiler was off and WH running) and WH exhaust is pouring out there too. Dam sad for a new unit installed just day's before. I made sure to advise the home owner of the danger and when she told me about the warrentee co. I told her to make them come back and left her a list of what was done wrong.

We're not all idiots, just most of us...

Kyle Kubs
Benchmark Home Inpsection Services
Northern NJ

Anna Conda

I showed these photos to my boss, who just about had a conniption right here *lol*

Dan, you should send these jaw-droppers in to the Safety Photo of the Week website, safe-webmaster@navy.mil

(I'm still choking every time I look at the vinyl dryer venting on the boiler stack.... the kind my dryer says not to use! o.O )

S Ebels

Dan

Who's calling you the bad guy? The Homeowner? He should be kissing your feet for saving his life for cryin' out loud!!
The more I look at the pics, the more I can't believe it. Anyone with even a glimmer of activity between his ears can see that was a statistic waiting to happen.

Call me baffled up here in snowy Michigan.

Rich_25

Did you notice the dryer vent in picture 4? (No text)

Jerry Peck

HVAC techs and THEIR work (if you can call it that)

Get your laughs about "home inspectors" while you can ... if could you see what WE see the YOU GUYS did, you would crap in your pants.

I'm "just" a "home inspector".

AKA
Certified General Contractor; Certified Building Contractor; Florida Standard Inspector; Certified Building Inspector; Certified Plumbing Inspector; Certified Mechanical Inspector; Certified Electrical Inspector Residential; Certified Electrical Inspector Commercial; Certified Structural Masonry Inspector; Certified Pest Control Operator; that's most of them

Be glad we treat you guys better on our forum.

Mark Hunt

Seen more than a few

like that.

Attached are some photos of a power-vented water heater that wasn't working properly. Seems the PVC kept melting and the HO kept having to replace it. After a while he got tired of buying PVC couplings and used a fernco coupling. When I pointed out that this was wrong.......he removed the fernco and used silver tape.

Now what could cause a power-vented water heater to melt PVC pipe? It draws dilution air from the space to cool the flue gas low enough for PVC. Well......the HO decided that the return ducting on his FHA system was "causing drafts" in his house so he tore ALL of the return duct down and blocked off ALL of the return openings in the house. THEN he cut two 20"x20" holes through the sheetrock on the walls of the stairwell to the basement. He left the return drop in place, but there were just openings on each end where the old return duct USED to be attached. His basement became his return duct.

Which fan do you think is more powerful? The fan on the power-vent? Or the blower on his FA furnace??

The basement depressurized SO much that the power-venter could not bring in ANY dilution air when the blower on the furnace was running. Presto! Melted pipe!

Also adding some pics of another home where an atmospheric water heater was used to replace a power-vented unit. They didn't use PVC for the vent, but they did re-use the side-wall termination.

Enjoy!

Mark H

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scott75

Must be nice to be an expert at everything. Don't get me wrong, I don't know you or your qualifications, but as we have seen from this thread "certified" has no value.

Jerry Peck

"but as we have seen from this thread "certified" has no value"

And, as home inspectors, we can tell you - being "licensed" only means you are "legally" qualified do the work, it does NOT mean you are "qualified" to do the work.

If it did, and you guys did it the way you were supposed to (and the other trades did what they were supposed to), WE would not have as much business as we do.

To err is human, humans screw up, but if one human wants to laugh at another's screw-up, they need to be prepared to be laughed at themselves - for their own screw-ups.

And we see those screw-ups all the time. Only we try to be professionals about it.

Mark Hunt

Jerry


You are correct, blanket statements lump the good in with the bad and that should be avoided.

I wonder if you would mind sharing with us the procedures that you follow when you find screw-ups like the ones in the photos here?

Are you allowed to shut down equipment? Do you call the utility? What can you do when you find an appliance that is installed or operating in an unsafe manner? Do you test fuel burning applainces for proper combustion and draft?

What does a home inspection include?

Thanks!

Mark H

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Well Jerry

I've met and worked with a few multiple certification experts in my area and about all they've got is the certs. The PI that carries about the same number of certs as you've got bragged that he studied just 30-minutes before taking the PI cert exam. That does not garner any respect from me. Now maybe you're the exception to the rule, but I've yet to meet anyone who truly is an expert in so many areas. Instead, they're typically blow-hards with the authority to make everyone's life a little bit more aggravating. Funny how that kind of authority seems to attract a certain type of personality.

Are there bums and idiots in our trade too? No kidding. Can they obtain a Master Plumber's license? Sure can, but they won't be able to go on-line and get one in under 30-minutes as I could for becoming a nationally certified home inspector.

You (that is, the collective you - as in home inspectors) have so much work because realtors like the idea they can call for one-stop cheap shopping, rather than pay the real experts in various trades to come and give qualified inspections that actually reveal the truth. There's also a good deal of collusion between many realtors and home inspectors via a pay-to-play scam that only serves to short-change the consumers they're supposedly "serving".

No doubt there are fabulous home inspectors out there. I have yet to witness any first-hand, as I've only seen the trail of misery and deceit left behind by ineffective and incompetent boobs who have missed obvious defects by a country mile as witnessed above.

To be fair, I see things like that from so-called trades-folk too. That's why I stepped in last week when our local water co called to ask me to help a 93 year old widow who was being ripped off by a licensed mechanical contractor. Not only did we take over and do the work for her, I'll be testifying in court on her behalf. The police were also called in as it was an honest-to-goodness scam of an elderly person. Will he be driven out of business? Eventually. Same goes on another case where I've been called in as an expert witness. I don't care if it's a home inspector or another licensed trades-person - right is right and wrong will be outed.

In the case outlined above in the pictures, the home inspector will skate off scott-free and so will the installer unless he or she is licensed and the municipality has some backbone.

And, from what I've seen and read on the home inspector BB's following a threat to sue me for an article I wrote, I'd be wary of bragging about the content. We pros were not being treated any better and the in-fighting exhibited by the members was embarrasing to witness.



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Dave Yates (PAH)

It's what they don't include that counts Mark

Go to their web sites and download the long list of things they've given themselves an exclusion for - tis very enlightening. Many of the things you & I would target as vitally important - like CO testing as an example - are exempted.

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Jerry Peck

Finally in agreement

Dave Yates,

"To be fair, I see things like that from so-called trades-folk too."

That is what I was saying.

You also said "It's what they don't include that counts Mark", yes, that is important, as is what home inspector DO look for.

Let me guess on this now ... just guessing, mind you, but ...

When YOU go to replace a water heater, DO YOU exempt everything else? ... pause ... You do? Golly gee, HOW COME?

NOW do you see why we (home inspectors) exempt so much?

"Are there bums and idiots in our trade too? No kidding. Can they obtain a Master Plumber's license? Sure can, but they won't be able to go on-line and get one in under 30-minutes as I could for becoming a nationally certified home inspector."

Yeah, and WE (home inspector NOT part of that association) ridicule them too. In fact, their "certification" is one of the biggest jokes in our profession. One which we would like to see go away. Gives a bad taste in the mouth for anyone who has laughed their way through that "test".

By the way, my certifications are from SBCCI, ICC, and the State of Florida. I hope you are aware of what SBCCI and ICC stand for (I trust you do, as a "professional" in your trade).

Mark,

"Are you allowed to shut down equipment?"

Under some circumstances, we would, yes.

"Do you call the utility?"

Many of us have when the needed arises.

"What can you do when you find an appliance that is installed or operating in an unsafe manner? Do you test fuel burning applainces for proper combustion and draft?"

WE tell them to call YOU guys in. Hopefully YOU are "qualified" to take care of it. Any more questions?

Oh, and many of us also have good working relationships with the local code officials, trying to keep up with the codes, and sometimes even find ourselves a step ahead of them. Not all home inspectors address code, MOST 'do not', but 'many' do.

See, WE are "not the bad guys", not any more than YOU are. Obviously, I am lumping all of "we" into "WE" and lumping all of "you" into "YOU", neither of which is fair - but you've already agreed with that, right?

Mark Hunt

Jerry


I already stated that blanket statements were not fair.

"What can you do when you find an appliance that is installed or operating in an unsafe manner? Do you test fuel burning applainces for proper combustion and draft?"

>WE tell them to call YOU guys in. Hopefully YOU are "qualified" to take care of it. Any more questions?<

One more.

How exactly are you determining whether one of US needs to be called? What criteria do you use to make such a determination?

Mark H

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Tom_35

Flue disasters

A number of years ago we received a call to do a real estate inspection. What we found was incredible! The flue on the furnace had been installed with the vinyl clothes dryer venting that was connected to the double wall vent. A puddle of plastic was on the furnace and only the helix of wire was connected from the furnace to the vent pipe. The furnace was on a raised base next to the hot water tank and return air openings were drilled into the base in the mechanical closet, as well as the surrounding walls. By saying "drilled", I mean drilled. They had multiple 1" openings that were drilled at random and visible in the mechanical room, but were covered by return air grilles in the adjoining hallway and bedroom.

Another job that we went on had a lot of horizontal run on the double-wall vent. The job had been installed by a distributor/dealer outfit who is supposed to set the example for their dealers. This vent job had multiple "drains" soldered into the side of the pipe, as well as single wall pipe that had completely rusted and all the flue gas was leaking into the attic, which had another furnace and duct system installed in it (think duct leakage). We had opted out on installing the HVAC for this job when it was built because of the builder, who was "married" to the HVAC contractor.

It is a wonder that we don't have more CO instances, given the feedback on this thread.

Tom Atchley
Ft. Smith, AR

Jerry Peck

depends

Mark,

That depends on the appliance, water heater, a/c system, heating system, we are "inspecting" and what components we are inspecting.

The best way to find out those answer is to come over here: http://inspectionnews.com/insite/BB/bb-frame.html and click on 'HVAC Systems' or 'Plumbing & Water Heating Systems'. Come on over. Besides, there are questions WE need REAL expert, qualified, and professional answers to which we sometimes can not get. Thanks.

Oh, and someone suggested that I remind you guys to replace the service access covers and all of their screws and fasteners after performing service - you would be surprised how many we find left off or loose.

Ted_9

water heater

I saw this on a job. This made it hard for me to sleep.

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Mark Hunt

Just registered Jerry


Looks like a cool site.

Mark H

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Jerry Peck

Mark,

Thanks for coming over, we are always asking questions and we don't always have the answers between the participants.

We can use the knowledge from the different trades/professions, we are all still learning.

Brian (Tankless)

Icemaker & fridge T

coming off the HOT side of the water heater. Plus, I don't see a cold water inlet valve.....anything else besides the plastic flue?

& I'm not even a plumber :O)

Mark, you sure do find 'em

Brian in Freezswampland.

Edit: And I just love that Romex JB above the PVC.

Tony_23

They call that

a "liner extension" don't they ?

Today, without my camera , I saw a boiler and water heater vented thru the sill with a stackboot ! There was another one on the outside going back to round, but still single wall ! Good tight fit, too
The lady says," We've had a CO detector for 15 years and it's never gone off" I said it did, the deep end

Tom_35

Another flue story--

Seeing some of the pictures also reminded me of a job we went on where the customer's CO detector kept going off, but "we don't think we have a problem, it's just a bad detector." Our tech got to the job and found a horizontal furnace "mounted" on an old dining room table in the basement. The furnace had an induced draft ventor on it and the flue ran off the ventor motor, down under the dining room table, then back up into an old masonry chimney that their original floor furnace had vented into.

The flue pipe was just stuck into the much larger hole in the chimney and had a piece of 2-conductor thermostat wire holding it up.

The company that had installed the system was a bigtime dealer that sold Lennox and Trane equipment. They finally bellied up owing in excess of a million dollars to suppliers, not to mention all the extended warranties that people had thought they had purchased. The owner moved to an adjoining state and opened up another business, and Trane, who had taken a hit for several hundred thousand dollars, signed them up as another one of their dealers.

It's not about the job that's installed for the manufacturers, it's about how many boxes they sell and what their market share is. Pretty sad.

Tom Atchley

Weezbo

Jerry...what makes you so sure none of us have every

one of those certifications and Then Some? i am certain the state certification is relative.....do we seemingly illuminate people by just how much schooling or examinations we have attended in just this year alone? or how many computer programs we have studied in the last month or the amount of trade journals Engineering mags Jama periodicals or codes we have studied, the homeowners and businessmaen and ladies that drop in usually find a second opinion and third and fourth minimum ,oblivious as to where we come from other than a good place in the heart ...what makes you the authourity on what any one of these individuals DO during the course of a day in enlightening a Variety of committees councils professionals educational facilities or communities....I think i might be offended were it nothing more than a jab in return of like kind. if you can honestly look at that picture and NOT SEE a single malfraction then sir perhaps you should do the right thing and step out of your current field of endeavour and work at something that is slightly more worthy of the publics trust. because right about now you are seriously suffering me to extend anything of the sort to you.

in no way would this type of work slide by as OK in my books...and i have to think that the person who paid to have this work done certainly had no idea his life and limb was in peril after having had an inspector assure him everything was up to code.

maybe you are just testing the waters... jump on in

i specialize in entertainment *~/:)

It may suprise you buh even on this internet forum you cannot judge a book by its cover.or to turn a phrase..One Smoke Covers another.

i am thinking that Rings clear as a Bell.

Weezbo

Ted That looks almost identical...

to a pic on the wall of shame over at HVAC. it looks to be designed by crackheads.

Ted_9

Crackhead

That is funny. The scary part is that it was the homeowner.

You may have seen it, someone else from this site got the job i believe.

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Jerry Peck

> one of those certifications and Then Some? i am

> certain the state certification is

> relative.....do we seemingly illuminate people by

> just how much schooling or examinations we have

> attended in just this year alone? or how many

> computer programs we have studied in the last

> month or the amount of trade journals Engineering

> mags Jama periodicals or codes we have studied,

> the homeowners and businessmaen and ladies that

> drop in usually find a second opinion and third

> and fourth minimum ,oblivious as to where we come

> from other than a good place in the heart ...what

> makes you the authourity on what any one of these

> individuals DO during the course of a day in

> enlightening a Variety of committees councils

> professionals educational facilities or

> communities....I think i might be offended were

> it nothing more than a jab in return of like

> kind. if you can honestly look at that picture

> and NOT SEE a single malfraction then sir perhaps

> you should do the right thing and step out of

> your current field of endeavour and work at

> something that is slightly more worthy of the

> publics trust. because right about now you are

> seriously suffering me to extend anything of the

> sort to you.

>

> in no way would this type of

> work slide by as OK in my books...and i have to

> think that the person who paid to have this work

> done certainly had no idea his life and limb was

> in peril after having had an inspector assure him

> everything was up to code.

>

> maybe you are

> just testing the waters... jump on in

>

> i

> specialize in entertainment *~/:)

>

> It may

> suprise you buh even on this internet forum you

> cannot judge a book by its cover.or to turn a

> phrase..One Smoke Covers another.

>

> i am

> thinking that Rings clear as a Bell.

Jerry Peck

Weezbo,

"if you can honestly look at that picture and NOT SEE a single malfraction then sir perhaps you should do the right thing and step out of your current field of endeavour and work at something that is slightly more worthy of the publics trust."

??????

Not sure where you are getting where ANYONE said there is nothing wrong in that photo.

However, now that you brought that up ...

This is from the first post:

"This job had repairs done by a home warranty company and was just inspected by a home inspector."

And NONE of you assumed or thought that the "home warranty company" hired a LICENSED contractor to do that work?

Guess what, YOU (and I and all of us also JUST INSPECTED that by looking at the photo), now, what did that home inspector report?

My guess is you don't know, I don't either, but that sure did not stop any of you from going off on the home inspector. For all we know, he may have reported back that the work needed to be done all over again. But that was not considered, was it.

The first response, from 'mitch' said "They should be eternally grateful to you,and suing the company that did those atrocities."

That was well said and not blaming ANYONE, just "the company that did those atrocities", as we do not know WHO did them - could be a licensed contractor, or even a home owner.

The next response by 'Jeff Lawrence' was along the same vein, "The people that did that are what gives our industry a bad name, regardless if it was the home owner or a professional (hack)."

Then it starts to deteriorate into blaming the home inspector with 'Dave Yates (PAH)' when he says "Sure would love to see the home inspector's report and which organization they're affiliated with. Errors and omissions insurance co they use would no doubt be interested too. It's far too easy to become a "nationally certified home inspector". Hells bells, I passed the test on a Sat morning in less than an hour's time - without studying in advance - and I have no business being a home inspector! The test is not proctored, which means anyone can take it for you and cheating by looking up answers is possible too."

That even without knowing what was reported. His response is a professional response, I guess? Not.

'Dave Yates' also added "Then there's the clown who did the actual work. No doubt unlicensed, which no doubt means no one will prosecute the bum."

Hmmmm ... gosh, Dave, do you know who did the work? MAY have been a licensed contractor. But I agree, HOPEFULLY NOT.

Then it goes on.

More responses making ASSUMPTIONS with not further knowledge than what was presented, all based on their own private biases and prejudices.

And YOU are accusing ME of not being nice? Read those responses and reply to your fellow contractors who like jumping off cliffs chasing assumptions based on little information.

Yeah, the home inspector MAY have said it was okay, just like that work MAY have been done by a licensed contractor.