System 2000 for cast iron radiation???

Laurel Kayne

Hi! We have a 1920's house, 1900 sf, an oil burner/hot water system, cast iron radiation on the 1st floor, baseboards on the top floor. Climate is Northeast. Our heating guys have told us the System 2000 EK1 is not suitable for cast iron radiation due to the quantity of water that needs to be heated. They recommend the Burnham MPO, whose tank is 7.7 gal vs. 2.5ish for EK1. HOWEVER, in comparing IBR/MBH ratings, the EK1's output is 60% greater (GPH is also higher: .85 vs. .60 for the Burnham). So it looks like the System 2000 would be better...can anyone help me?? Thank you SO much!
-Laurel

Ken_40

The EK1 is grossly oversized. It would NOT be my first choice in any case. You do NOT want an oversized boiler. Oversized boilers short cycle like mad. The less cycling the boiler/burner does, the better for economy. If your heat load is 40,000BTU's you want a boiler as close to 40,000 BTU's output as practical. Since most boilers are too large in most cases, other more closely matched firing rates are preferable - always.

BTW, the water content of the boiler is NOT an issue here.

You might want to consider a condensing high efficiency boiler as well. At least two I am aware of burn oil and get well over 92% AFUE.

Is gas an option?

chapchap70_2

Laurel,

It seems from what you posted that your heating guys do not know much about System 2000. See if you could find a heating contractor in your area that is a System 2000 dealer to look at your heating system. Usually they offer other equipment as well so if they think another piece of equipment would be better for your high water content cast iron piping, they would be able to tell you. The piping may have to be different with the System 2000 but the low water content as well as other features saves money on oil.

Norm Harvey

An EK 1 like most other oil boilers may be too large for the heating load, but not for the DHW load.

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jim_57

System 2000 w/rads

> Laurel,

>

> It seems from what you posted that

> your heating guys do not know much about System

> 2000. See if you could find a heating contractor

> in your area that is a System 2000 dealer to look

> at your heating system. Usually they offer other

> equipment as well so if they think another piece

> of equipment would be better for your high water

> content cast iron piping, they would be able to

> tell you. The piping may have to be different

> with the System 2000 but the low water content as

> well as other features saves money on oil.

jim_57

System 2000 w/rads

Two very important points here: 1) When you compare the water volume of the System 2000 and the MPO, the heating system holds much more water than either. By piping the EK with an injection loop into the main you accomplish 2 things. The burner and zone valve don't short cycle and the heating loop has a constant flow of heated water for the entire heat call. 2) As recently confirmed by Brookhaven Nat'l Labs, the post purge feature of System 2000 virtually negates the effects of oversizing.

Mad Dog_2

I agree with Chappy

Me suggests you get a true heating pro in there to do a heatloss and a design. Be prepared to pay a few hundred well-spent dollars for this pro. System 2000 is one of many excellent products out there, so don't let them take a bad hit because of incompetant installers. The Find A Professional feature at this site has the best in the business here. Good luck and keep us posted. Mad Dog

heatboy

Pipe the 2000 in a ..........

....primary-secondary arrangement with two pumps. Let the system pump run continously on a call for heat and use the boiler with its pump to inject hot water in to the main loop. The control on the EK will guard the boiler against too low a water temperature while the mix point of the piping becomes a self modulating system and the radiators will come up to temperature at the same pace.

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Will_5

My Choice

would be to stick with the MPO, I've done a couple jobs with them involving radiators and they work extremely well. The MPO has a built-in low return temp protection which makes it ideal for your application, couple it with a outdoor reset and it would be a very good uncomplicated system. I can't speak for the System 2000 as I only have limited experience. Just my thoughts.

C

Cosmo_3

the main point here is.....

The MPO is no different than the System 200 as it relates to the type of system you have. Both will need protection from return water temperatures that are too low. Both will have to be installed Primary/secondary to work correctly with a standing radiator (most likely converted gravity) system.

When sizing boiler the first thing that needs to be done is to complete a heat loss on the structure to determine how many BTU's you need to heat the house. Then decide how you will heat your hot water, and if you use the new boiler to heat an indirect hot water heater, check to see if the boiler sized to heat the home will also be big enough to satisfy your hot water demands. If not, then figure out how many BTU's you need for hot water. In my opinion if you have to double the capacity of the boiler to get the hot water you need, then you may want to look into a tankless wall mounted gas water heater.

Or not...it DEPENDS!!!


Cosmo

Ken Field

System 2000 is great choice for that installation

I agree with the fact that the domestic hot water load probably exceeds the heating load. The System 2000 allows a smaller input than comes installed. That would put the output not too much oversize. The beauty of the primary/secondary setup other than what has already been said is that the temperature of the radiators is proportional to the outdoor temp. by virtue of the fact that they all get their fair share of the water being heated. It is very similar to a gravity ho water system that may well have been the one that came with the house. No other system will yield the comfort of warm radiators on a cool day and hot radiators on a cold day like the primary/secondary system. At least not with a reliable highly efficient oil system. The simplicity of making the primary/secondary system work with the System 2000 makes it extremely inexpensive to add to a boiler installation. It is also possible to have higher temperature water if needed for modern zones added later in other areas of the house. The MPO is a good boiler but only if you are not planning on using it for domestic hot water.

Ken

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Ken_40

Why would anyone

want to buy and install a boiler that must be "modified"?

You agree withe the "fact" that D/H/W load "probably" exceeds the heating load? Based upon what information? Did you happen to do a heat load calc.?

The "beauty" of P/S? The only "beauty" is that the S2000 CAN'T run with cool return temps without corrosion city!

"No other system will yield the comfort of warm radiators on a cool day and hot radiators on a cold day like the primary/secondary system."? In fact, almost ALL boilers will work as well or better (like the Buderus that DOES NOT need P/S to survive cool return water.)


"At least not with a reliable highly efficient oil system."?
Any other boiler I can think of is AS RELIABLE.

The real beauty of "any other boiler" is anyone can buy and install it, and anyone could service it as well. If the S-2000 is chosen, only "authorized dealers" can install it, and unique parts are only available from that vey limited channel of distribution.

A MAJOR consideration when buying anything that may go "bump" in the night.

The S-2000 is indeed a fine boiler - given its rather obvious limits. I suggest the homeowner look at all options, including condensing gas boilers.

Ken Field

Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the rock.

I have no idea what you meant by the statement about modification. Every boiler we buy needs configuration. If you consider that modification, go buy a package boiler and connect 2 wires and 2 pipes and viola, you are a hydronic expert.

I believe you were using 40K btu as an example. Do you think the domestic load would be less than that? I don't.

You are correct that the System 2000 cannot tolerate low return temperatures (below 110 degrees F) but there are only a very few boilers that don't exhibit problems with low return water temp. It is our job to design the system to prevent that low temp water from reaching the boiler. Unless we buy packages. Then the reverse aquastat handles that for us as we watch each radiator in the system heat up ONE BY ONE on each pump cycle.

In addition to the efficiency that comes from P/S I don't have to heat up 450 lbs. of cast iron and 8 gallons of water all summer just to make domestic hot water.

The problem with any other boiler is that too many unqualified people DO buy and install them.

As far as things that go bump in the night, I would rather have a phone number of a registered dealer at 3am than hoping to reach the moonlighter who may be at his real job.

The beauty of our industry is that we have these choices and can offer them to the homeowners for them to decide on what they want to heat with. When an uneducated installer bashes a product or system design, it is usually more because he can't admit his lack of experience with that product and can't substantiate any negative claims about it. As long as the customer does his/her homework on the product and the installer, the end result is fully controlled by the homeowner. And it should be, it is his/her money.

When a customer requests one or an application lends itself to a Buderus, Burnham or whatever boiler, we happily install them and have great results with all of them. Reading the instructions is not optional, but after 20 years of using the System 2000, I have yet to hear one factual attack on the system design or its application. My mind is not closed and I will keep listening.

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Robert O'Brien

Ken

with all due respect, then why do you have a Monitor FCX? How "rare" are those? And they go bump in the night as well! As you well know EK parts are much more readily available than FCX parts

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jim_57

Cool returns

System 2000 can't be hurt by cool or cold returns from the stand point of possibly cracking or splitting a seam. You can dump ice water into one that is at full temperature and not cause damage. However, I've had to ream out enough cold start boilers with no reverse protection to know that condensation is the issue. System 2000 manager has builtin reverse protection so condensation isn't the issue here, it is, as Ken F. ably explained, stop and start of the heat flow to the rads that is the issue.

I don't believe I ever installed many boilers that I hooked up straight out of the crate without adding something to it, be it zone valves, extra circs, etc.

As far as oversizing is concerned, I mentioned in another thread that the post purge feature built in to the system manager negates the effects of oversizing. Sizing to a small heat load can mean that domestic hot water production suffers and may require a larger storage tank or indirect than with a higher output boiler.

Ken_40

Sorry if

I hit a nerve lad.

You write, "I believe you were using 40K btu as an example. Do you think the domestic load would be less than that? I don't. "

We handle the "domestic" load all day long with water heaters that only have 34,000 BTU input.

Given modest indirect storage capabilities, the heating load basis alone CAN be the operative, not the other way around. In case you were unaware, there is other technology available besides the flat plate exchanger or tankless coils.

Indirects allow boilers to be minimally sized to the heating load alone; unless of course you live in a well insulated dog house.

Norm Harvey

I dont understand all this talk about system 2000 not being able to handle cool return temps.

When the return temp sensor feels return water temps less than 140 it shuts the zone valves until the temp rises.

That works great in my book, and thats why we suggest the P/S piping arrangement so that the boiler can tank in only what it can put out.

I fail to see the claim about low return temps.



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Robert O'Brien

Other

than the Viessmann Vitola what non -condensing boiler doesn't need protection from low return temps?

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Ken_40

Why did we suddenly

eliminate condensing boilers?

Laurel is considering all options, including gas.

Besides the Viessmann? Buderus, for just one. And, there are others. But I sense we are not attempting to inform, we are attempting to sell.

Anyone who does not consider a condensing boiler has been remiss IMO. The fact that the S-1000 can't - is not the issue. The fact that many CAN, is.

Norm Harvey

The only Buderus that can handle thermal shock is the G215, and that would be grossly oversized.

If you want to get into an oil versus gas debate, thats a completely different thread right there.

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Ken_40

Thermal shock?

Thermal shock is not the issue - never was. Condensate and resulting corrosion are. Even the poorset quality boiler can handle 212F out and 70F return. Every steam boiler does that on almost every cycle. Since most steamers are also water boilers, the technology is hardly hi-tech.

The issue is corrosion not "thermal shock."

You were just testing us - right?(;-o)

Perhaps you should bone up on how these things work, before trying to sell them?

chapchap70_2

From reading Laurel's post, it seems she was asking about two boilers; System 2000 and Burnham MPO. I gathered she is already leaning toward the System 2000 and she was concerned that the Burnham her heating guys are trying to steer her to would not be able to give her enough heat. I do not know where the 40,000 BTU's or that she is interested in gas/condensing boilers came from but it was not from her post.

Robert O'Brien

Ken

Since She mentioned the EK and MPO it is a fair assumption that the fuel choice is oil which would eliminate condensing boilers unless you want to be a Pioneer(no pun intended) and go with a Pinnacle or FCX

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Ken_40

But...

I don't have to be the rep to get 'em. Anybody (even you) can get 'em.

Unlike the nightmare we read about a month or two ago, where someone wanted to buy them; a lot of them - and they wouldn't give him the time of day because he wasn't a rep/dealer. When the nes hit The Wall, all of a sudden he was "taken care of."

I don't like that style of business and still don't. Reminds me to much of the way Lenox does business.

Based on the last thread like this one, few others feel real fond of them either.

Ken_40

Sorry,

We (Laurel and I)have been e-mailing each other directly.

I am aware of what she wants and initially she wrote what she was told, not what she needs.

Happens all too often IMO.

We discussed the FCX and it is not for her. She thinks her water temp requirements on a design day would exceed the capabilities of the FCX (which is 165F max.)

I'm sure she now realizes she has numerous options. Which is as it should be.

Brad White_9

Ken

I have seen thermal shock up close and personal. Are you saying it does not exist or that the term is without meaning? Not a challenge so much as curious.

The corrosion aspects are clear and if prolonged are an issue, if dried out even each cycle, they can be lived with.

While it is true that all cast iron boilers at some point in their lives see 70 degree incoming water as they warm, rare enough is the condition where such cool water enters a hot boiler in quantity. Where it does occur, watch out. I have seen sections removed which were as good as hit with a sledge hammer. This of course was standard grade 30 non-eutectic cast iron. HB Smith if memory serves but it could have been any. (A poor control job did the boiler in, long story short the boiler was fired to limit and the boiler circulator came on when it should have been running already. But it happens.)

Steam in your example would rarely if ever see cold water introduced in quantity, just what is displaced from the Hartford Loop upon startup. Once fired, that condensate should be fairly warm, too hot to touch. But as a function of a wet return, the quantity/flow rate is small and typically tempered. Even on a cold start, the inflow is pre-tempered by the first flush from the equalizer; an inherent tempering is normal and I assume by the boiler, appreciated.

Will_5

Boiler Protection

I will chime in and say the the MPO is in the same class as the Viessmann and Buderus 215 in that it can handle the low return temps without the need for a by-pass, even the 84K Model unlike the Buderus 115 series.

C

Norm Harvey

Okay, I'll bite...

Correct me if Im wrong, because if I am I want to be right.

Flue gasses condense because too much heat is extracted from them before they can exit the chimney. Then the resulting water mixes with the physical products of combustion to form a corrosive.

This extracting too much heat can be caused by sustained return temperatures under 140 degrees.

Best way to stop return temps under 140 degrees,.. a boiler bypass. great. System 2000 has 2! Low water content, 2 boiler bypasses, pump stopping controls,..

I really fail to see where this is a bad system that cant handle low return temps. Really.

The g215 has multiple internal bypasses to bring the return water temp up also which is what I was getting at.

So please, if Im wrong, educate me.

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Cosmo_3

We have to remember

Who our audience is here.

Lets answer HER question.

System 2000 is a fine boiler. Just like many of the other boilers out there. Main thing is who is installing it.

If the contractor you pick is experienced with the Energy kinetics boiler line, fine.

If I had a choice of boilers, and you do have gas, or are willing to switch to propane I think that it may be worth your while to look into condensing/modulating boilers. these boilers have an advantage over most oil boilers in that they can both receive cold temperatures back but also can modulate the output of the burner to match the heat output needed. Some models of which are the Top of Line Viessmann Vitodens, also the Knight, the Munchkin, the Buderus GB-142, and others.

To work with your radiators, no matter what boiler you use save the Viessmann Vitola (which is probably to big anyway), primary secondary piping is in my opinion required no matter what.

Find your self a good contractor and work with what he recommends. This site is always a great tool for you to test the knowledge of the contractor you are interviewing. Also to mull over choices of brands vs application vs budgets.

There is more than one way to do a good job! Thus the debates.....

Cosmo

Ken_40

Lots of boilers crack,

but not from thermal stress. Oh sure, I can name a brand that was notorious for thermals stress cracks. Does the model 28 ring a bell?

Think about the thousands of boilers out there with tankless coils. The boiler sits there at 180 all day and all of a sudden the circulator comes on. 180 boiler temp, 70 degree return water. Granted, those boilers only lasted 40+ years (;-o)

I will concede, a steamer that's been dry-fired will have true thermal stress. But 500+F iron with 50F water feed is NOT thermal stress as you and I know it, or meant - in this discussion.

Thermal stress does exist, but after seeing and working on thousands of steamers and an equal number of water boilers - from 4 to 400 HP, I have never seen anything but poor castings create a crack. The the manufacturer blames it on thermal stress, of course.

I'm not buying it. Not yet anyhow.

Ken_40

The convoluted manner

that you explain it - suggests you already know the answer.

All boilers condense like mad when they cold start; regardless of whether fitted with old fashioned reverse acting aquastats or not. Just because you don't pump water through, doesn't mean condensation isn't ocurring!

The boiler's at ambient. The flame comes on. There's a ton of condensing occurring. Once the flue gasses get past ~140F, the condensing nearly stops.

Surely your not suggesting the S-2000 has magical powers and transends the ambient to R.A. aquastat set-point by going to 140 in nano-seconds?

Think of all the fuel the S-200 wastes as it tries to go from ambient to 140, before any heat is actually pumped into the emitters!

If was doing a steel boiler, I'd have concerns as well. Cast iron's bad enough, but steel? Can you spell "rust city"?

Norm Harvey

with a mere 2.5 gallons of water the system 2000 heats to 140 degrees in about 90 seconds.

In all the system 2000's Ive done annual maintenance on Ive seen not a single one with evidence of condensation in the flue ways.

On my testo it shows the dewpoint of the system 2000's flue gass at approx 120 degrees, and the flue gass at 300 degrees minimum,.. thats enough practical field experience with my metersto back up the fact that I see no ecidence of condensation in the flues.

- Norm

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Ken_40

OK...

90 seconds, times 10 times a day times 100 heating days a year times ten years comes out to...

36-billion dollars?

Can that be right?

Ken Field

Only for System 2000 dealers

When the facts get in the way, throw up some smoke.

Experience is a good tool for confirming what we learn about our trades and it can't be bought. You can argue/discuss all day long about theoretical formulas and corrosion and low return water temps and fireside condensation but when I open a 20 year old System 2000 and it looks like new, I know I have a winning combination. I'll stick with it until I see otherwise with my own eyes.

Ken Field

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chapchap70_2

Laurel,

If you are still paying attention to this, you may want to disregard Ken's posts and emails regarding the System 2000 (if you haven't done so already).

Ken wrote:
"Think of all the fuel the S-200 wastes as it tries to go from ambient to 140, before any heat is actually pumped into the emitters!

If was doing a steel boiler, I'd have concerns as well. Cast iron's bad enough, but steel? Can you spell "rust city"? "

Ken,

I don't know what your gripe is with Energy Kinetics but may I suggest that when you use the concept of "is" that you try to be in agreement with the truth?

I do not have a stake in what piece of equipment Laurel has in her home since I do not own an oil burner service company and I do not work for Energy Kinetics.

Laurel Kayne

Wow

Holy cannoli! Who knew a stay-at-home mom could become an expert on boilers without leaving the house?!:) You guys are awesome -- I am reading, re-reading, studying, and filing every post!! I think I know more than the techs at some of the companies I call. I love a good debate and have been fascinated by all the information going back and forth. Thanks a million - I'm very grateful for your help, and yes I'm still reading...

One related question...One reason the S2000 appealed tome was the Digital Heat Manager, which sounds similar to Buderus's Logamatic Control, and also the Beckett Heat Manager?? Thoughts? How important is this kind of feature for efficiency?

Thanks again,
-Laurel

Brad White

Laurel is a Wallie, Laurel is a Wallie.....

How cool!

heatboy

If your heating guy says........

..the EK is not suited for your application, he is (1) just trying to sell his stuff by tearing down the other guy, or (2) he doesn't know hydronics at all. Either one would have me re-thinking my installer choice. The EK, MPO, Vitola, etc., can all work or not depending on who it is doing design/install.

hb

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Ken Field

System Manager

The System manager on the EK boilers is not as complicated as it appears. It basically uses time delays to be sure that no high temperature water is left in the boiler at the end of a heat or hot water cycle. In the summer time the last thing you want is to have 180 degree water sitting in your boiler after the storage tank has been reheater. The manager puts the hot water remaining in the boiler to use and post-purges that heat to the last zone that called for heat (or hot water). It also has some handy error checking and an interface for a home alarm system or other notifiation device in case of a malfunction. The Beckett heat manager attempts to maximize the run time of a burner based on output water temperature and can be a good idea to add to an existing system that wasn't equipped with any kind of intelligent control from the factory but would probably not play well with the EK boilers or the Logamatic control.

Ken Field

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Joe Brix

The Digital Heat manager

Brings the boiler up to temp before starting the circulator. It also controls post-purging the boiler to the last zone that called. It does not do outdoor reset, as EK wants the boiler to run up to full temp each call.
Burnham relabels some excellent Tekmar boiler controls for the MPO that can do outdoor reset and priority for an indirect so you can size the smallest possible boiler you need. I think you get the greatest savings with a properly
sized boiler using outdoor reset. A boiler putting out 40-50K BTUS's can heat a 40 gal indirect in 10-15 minutes. Maybe it's me, but I feel more comfortable now using outdoor reset. The baseboard only goes to 180 when it's zero outdoors. Durring most of the winter, the boiler water temp is around 140 to 160. The air in the house just doesn't seem as dry. I only run a humidifier on days when the temps drop below 20's.

jim_57

Not to nitpick

but the system circulator starts with an input to the manager simultaneously with the burner. Due to the spiral configuration of the converter (boiler) forced circulation is necessary. However, all zone outputs, whether they are zone valves or zone circs, are kept off until return water temperature reaches 140º.