Win, lose, or draw...censorship?

Unknown

Alan.. it's ridiculous to personally approve or disprove every applicant in 90% of cases. An email confirmation link kills the vast majority of "impulse spoofers" and ALL identity stealers that are trying to co-op another active poster's identity. The rest that bother to create or use a temporary/junk email account to sign up you can deal with in a lot less time than having to approve every applicant up front. the other thing to consider is the target audience here are not exactly the foremost computer hackers. A few simple safeguards would stop nearly all problems. No one here is going to throw up proxy servers and target a spambot on the site.

Maybe you have security access issues I'm not aware of, but for a forum like this, very little more than email confirmation links are required to filter account applications.

Alan R. Mercurio_3

I think I understand what you’re trying to say Rob but let me give you an example of what I’m personally dealing with. A new user with a legitimate e-mail address registers to Oil Tech Talk. I get an e-mail notification of that new user that is awaiting activation.

When I review the new potential account it’s anything from gambling to porn to bloggers. Naturally I delete the new account and go on with life shaking my head. That all takes time. And yes I block their e-mail and IP but they always come back with a new one. That’s what I’m dealing with anyway

Your friend in the industry,
Alan R. Mercurio

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Unknown

Oh, I gotcha. You're using a forum software that they have spambots set up to go through the whole registration process for.

See if your provider can set up a visual confirmation code like Dan has on our posts now, but in a picture graphic ("PLEASE ENTER THE CODE YOU SEE HERE"). Require it to make new accounts. No spam bot made today can break that yet.

Though not all forum software supports that yet... If you can't, well, best of luck. At least I know who to contact if I'm looking for good porn or gambling sites

Alan R. Mercurio_3

I am working on having some changes made but like anything else time and money come in to the equation. LOL on your last remark

Your friend in the industry,
Alan R. Mercurio

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Mainemike

Registration

Just wanted to throw my .02 in as a frequent reader of the wall and occasional poster. I agree with Dan that requiring registration and a password to gain access to post on the wall would reduce the number of "non regulars" who would take the time to post. I have experienced that myself with boards on other topics I stumbled across or searched for info. Oftentimes I might have some information or an answer to a question posted, but I don't take the time to register in order to post it. If this is to be a forum for both the pros to network and brainstorm as well as allow customers/ homeowners etc to gain info and ask questions I think it is important to allow easy access... Just my long winded .02. Great job Dan keep up the good work.

mtfallsmikey

Common sense, courtesy, professionalisim

Dan, you need a surrogate webmaster while you are away, as for the rest, remember that the general public comes to this site for help and knowledge. When the pros start to pit their brainpower against one another to see who's the smartest, no one wins. There are many threads I could make a comment on, have experience with the subject matter, but if someone has already answered the question, then I let it go...move on! No one is forced to come to this site and post. I have learned so much from so many of you that I would hate to see things change.

chris_86

Another fine mess i've gotten into olli,...

Keep it free. Still I don't approve of censorship in any form; these things tend to be self-policing in the long run.

On another note my e-mail account was closed by yahoo because of some "activity" I just got it back...after a number of lengthy phone calls, which took an act of congress to find, yahoo is pretty private at its core, anyways they asked if I belonged to any chat rooms, xxx sites, and or other services? They eventually told me that my account was accessed repeatedly from an address that uses this site, wonderful experience. Reminds me of many of the things the defendants lawyers do to us in another area of the plumbing business. Try and remember I have been around for a while and I also deal with many different characters that certainly do not have safety or the public’s interest at heart. Remember that I have resources available to me to protect others even though I don't know much about computers, but certainly I have learned and am the wiser for it.

And being a plumber at the core I frequently find myself conflicting with other duties and the crudeness of years of working on the decks of exposed floors in the middle of winter takes a certain acquired attitude to survive on the 80th floor in 50 mph winds trying to place 18”SV by muscle power alone, and then calk the joints with lead that cools too much by the time you pour it…well anyways this thick skin is very thick and is here to serve the unwary and naive it is one of the reasons so many union trained individuals are in public positions…not patronage or connections, it is because we continue to be first into the fight.

Al_19

I'm not knowledgeable about all these technical solutions being suggested, and I know that the anonimity of the Internet allows some people to act/speak impolitely. But the old saying holds true, "You can't 'legislate' morality, civility, common sense, etc." It has to be an attitude in the community in general.

For the most part, to me, it works here. Just as some posters occasionally get out of hand, they are also quick to offer support, prayers, donations, and so on, as the situation calls for.

Thanks Dan.

Unknown

as far as people being jerks, you're absolutely right.

as far as people stealing other people's identities, that's a problem that can be fixed without changing anything for anyone who doesn't want things changed.

The only question is how much it costs

Ken_40

And...

When you see nearly half the posters with fictitious names, phony e-mail addies and "crank" personal comments, many misss-spellled woids. Ya sorta know it's a slippery slope to hell before you get involved.

Quite obviously, and rather surprising I might add, a lot of "baiters" came out of the woodwork. There's always some whacko lurking in the bushes of life, but they rarely take on the appearence of a large faction.

It may very well have been one or two guys hi-jacking the thread - appearing to be many.

So, now, how about dem Bears, huh?

Ken_40

Wetstock XII in

Hawaii?

Cape May?

Franfurt?

Milan?

Would these be a tax write-off? Business after-all...

Dave_4

Mine was locked also for 12 hours

Too many password attempt screen said. I didn't call, just waited. Big brother may be watching. The price of being hijackable I guess.

Ken_40

For God-sake...

We're making it sound as if there was a freakin' murder here.

A few intruders got rowdy. A few poster's identity got mis-used. Some things were posted that made no sense at all or were down right rude and obnoxious.

They were words. A few got heated, most were revealing. The thread is history.

This is Dan's site. He runs the show as he wishes. We are his "guests." If we see something we don't like we have three choices: Don't respond; respond thoughtfully; or, unthoughtfully and get deleted - either pesonally or just the thread.

If you are personally deleted, you will end up dead. Dan has killed more than a few offenders, e.g., you never hear a peep out of Denny Adelman, do you? Ever hear from Jeffie? How about Mr. PEX?

All dead. Last seen on the banks of The Mighty Passaic River, smoldering inside an upside down rusted shopping cart at low tide...

Let's move on. There's real trouble in the world. I got a foot of snow already and another two coming.

Which of you is coming by to help me shovel?

I have a bad back.

jackchips_2

I love

the red gummies, Ken.

Jack

:-))

Mark Hunt

I there for ya' buddy!!!


Murph is gonna' pick me up and we'll be right over!!!

And PLEASE remember...........shaken....not stirred....three olives.

MArk "watching it snow" H



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Ken_40

Grey

Goose okay?

D107

However

publicly posting email addresses with each post creates a rich harvest for the bots and all of us would be getting double or triple spam. I have been advised by webmasters re: my own website to keep my email address off it; those who want to contact me have to hit a contact button.

I think Dan is right; the key is self-restraint. Many of the interlopers might disappear if they didn't attract the kind of fireworks they're looking for. A post from a hijacked email address might have to be refuted, and perhaps the hijacker's name and company publicly outed if possible but it could end there.

These episodes do show a kind of road rage many of us experience from time to time. I'm sure it's in all fields and walks of life. Hydronics has its own particulars. I was trying to figure out what the trigger is. Someone's opinion that contradicts another's experience seems to do it.

I have to admit SOME of the retorts from the wallies rival anything on SNL or from high school days for hilarity. I often hurt myself laughing; the wit is very thick here. Dan didn't call it 'the big ugly' for nothing. Even my wife appreciates my accounts --ordinarily her eyelids instantly snap shut at the mere hint that a heating anecdote is about to begin.

David

Mark Hunt

Sure


Got any hickory for the fire?

Mark H

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Murph'_5

once we get....

The paddy wagon out of the snow, we can swing by the Island and get the cell door Keys!


Murph'
(SOS)awol


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Steve Ebels_3

Leave it the way it is!

I visit a few other forums on a variety of topics and there is no place like the Wall when it comes to the level of genuine respect everyone is usually treated with. I like it the way it is.

Some sites try to provide different "areas" for those who want to delve into religion or politics or those who delight in flaming someone they disagree with. I like everything all in one "pot" cooking away like the excellent stew this place is.

LET IT BE!

That being said, I'll post a few guidelines that I try to follow personally, not only here but in any situation. I'm not saying I always hit the mark but I try hard Adhering to a few thoughts like these would help us all to keep our discourse civil and avoid scaring away any customers.

These are quotes:

A man who lacks judgment derides his neighbor, but a man of understanding holds his tongue.

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.

As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Mockers stir up a city, but wise men turn away anger.

Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.

John R. Hall

The idiots won't pay to post

A few years ago The NEWS took its forum into the paid section of the website. Only people with a paid subscription could use this online feature. The move eliminated all of the riff-raff and hit-and-hide posters because they probably couldn't imagine having to pay $29 a year to subscribe to the NEWS. The problem is, the forum turned into a ghost town and the feature is now rendered useless. It only remains as a courtesy now -- nothing else. I guess if it ain't free it ain't worth the bother.

Perry_3

There are two sides to this issue...

There are those who feel that the current system is just fine.... and we tolerate those who hijack threads using names of regular posters.

Then there are those who feel that actions should be taken to protect the user names of the people on this site.

I fall into the second class.

Dan is right that some solutions are not easy - and have issues.

There are several forums out there that have a registration process with unique password protected user names for people who wish to have an identity - and allow "guest" to post under the name of "Guest" without registration or a password.

The registration process could use a random character input like the current post process to defeat the spybots (a real problem), and be automated with an email activation. Whatever problems get through the registration process could be handled by deleting the account.

If I were bulding such a feature for this site - I might expand the "guest" posting for this site to allow people to select an option of "Guest - Homeowner", "Guest - Heating Contractor", "Guest - Heating Rep or Designer"

I do admit that it would cost some money to build; but protecting people identity - and preventing newbies from getting the wrong idea about someone - is also important.

Perry

ALH_4

flaming trolls

This bulletin board has incredibly few problems with people simply causing trouble. I have participated in other boards where it was nearly impossible to find content because of the junk. Occasionally there are disagreements and people can get personal, but even these are relatively tame. I, for one, probably would not be here if there was a registration process to join. One can argue whether that is good or bad. ;-)

Incidentally, I have never had a spam problem, but then I have never clicked on one of the Google links. I think some of those links result in the "Wall cookie" being read and the person's email address being added to a mailing list.

Uni R_3

Remember the survey?

It said the Wall is mostly frequented by mature guys in their 40s and 50s. It also tends to only appeal to those who have a specific interest in this field. While the amount of animosity in here is remarkably low, I'm surprised that there is any at all.

jackchips_2

John,

if they change their mind and pay will they no longer be idiots?

:-)

Jack

DanHolohan

There is one thing of which I'm certain

and that is that there is absolutely no way that a click to a Google ad from HeatingHelp.com gives that advertiser any cookie information whatsoever. It's just a link.

ScottMP

My opinion may not amount

to a hill of Beans but .....

Leave The Wall the way it is !!!!

If you don't like the way it is ..... go somewhere else or buld your own place. Take your ball and go away ... quietly !!

Stop trying to change something that drew you in, in the first place.

Scott

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Tony_23

In those famous words

"Can't we all just get along ?"

Personnally, I've gotten much better at laughing at a moronic post and not validating it by replying. Why get all worked up by someone you never met and probably never will ? I like the saying, "Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience".

I know I've become much richer by coming here for the last 7 years or so. The diversity of experience and knowledge along with the generosity displayed by sharing the same, as well as the compassion for others at a time of loss, makes The Wall a treasure we should all appreciate to the point where NO ONE posts anything derogatory.

Now, it's still below zero here and people need me.

JoeV_2

I've been following these threads somewhat and if this has already been suggested, forgive my lack of attention.

Many of the technical sites I visit have an off topic area where people can discuss everything and anything-within reason of course. If people want to talk about something other than boilers or blow off steam (no pun intended), they can go there; kinda like ask Carol Fey or Ask the professor.

Regards,

JoeV

Leo G_99

But Joe,

this is what makes the Wall so darn good. It is like a big house party, and like all house parties, all the rooms are empty except for the kitchen!

I can't say for sure, but I would wager a months worth of wages, that the reason why this site is always in the top three of hits for heating sites, is this comfy feel that Dan has fostered. People come here with questions and stay for the friendships and fun of this ever evolving (think living) site.

The wall is by and far the most "real" website that I visit. I really feel a keen interest in everyones lives here. We share! And that is what makes this place unique, WE SHARE!

Whether it is news of new family members or ones that have parted from this mortal coil. Whether it is pride in our installs, or pride in learning something new, or best yet, the pride that a homeowner feels, when directed by some of the more generous minds here, replaces some near boiler piping, or changes the position of a circ, or just says thanks to one of the pro's here for making their lives more comfortable.

I really believe that we are all living on the same cul-de-sac when i launch onto this site, and all I have to do is walk over to the Prof's house to see his data logger, or maybe drop by Gandpah's to celebrate in his son's moving on to college, or climb that darn hill on the east side of the cul-de-sac, to share a Guiness with Ken, and listen to his poetry about the Mighty Passiac!

This site is the first real evidence that magic is real, and Dan is a Master Wizard. Let it be this house party that it has always been and let us realize that in the end, we really are our brothers and sisters keepers!

Leo G

JoeV_2

I agree whole heartedly Leo, but I think some subjects are controversial and off topic. If people want discuss controversial topics they can go to that section of the wall knowing there will be arguments.

Meanwhile, the main part of the wall can remain an unadulterated place to ask for advice and share knowledge. Just a thought. I usually avoid topics with mre than ten followups. too much reading.

Ken_40

Define...

"Off topic."

Define: "Controversial"

We have human interests that transcend basic wet-heat issues and focus.

Once you start defining fixed boundries, it becomes a subjective world of someone - at someone else's expense.

The ultimate boundry is the option to not read a post, a thread, or any particular one author.

If you are a long standing WetHead, maybe going to at least two of the four somewhat infamous "Wetstocks" may be a "qualifier" as to bearing to reveal personal things that you might call "off topic"?

A well know guy's Mom died. He mentioned it here. We know this guy. We ate with him. Got a tour of his plant with him. Drank far too many brewskies with him. Spent two great days with him in a class that helped us run our businesses better.

The condolensces were so far off-topic as to be insane. But if you knew John Barba, you'd know it was at the center of what goes on here, not "unrelated."

Stick around Joe V. There's more here than you could ever imagine.

JoeV_2

I know that. I've been haunting this site for three years now and am familiar with most of you. The subject of censorship is controversial and off topic. So is politics. Anything that people feel passionate about or has a polarizing effect is controversial. Maybe inflamatory is a better word than controversial.

The passing, family tragedy, or illness of a friend and contributer to this site is neither controversial nor polarizing. It's informative, supportive, and helps with healing. Not to mention this site IS an electronic Memorial to "The Dead Men".

It was only a suggesion. And, only Dan H. can decide how to deal with it. Not us. I can live with that.

Enough from me. I'm going to sink back into the shadows.

Cosmo_3

off topic

I have always seen the Wall as a place where me and my buddies can talk about stuff. Kind of like Archie Bunker's place. Or Cheers.

The Wall has been invaluable to me over the years by giving me a basically free education using everyone else's experiance. I owe a lot to this site. But to me it is not exclusively for technical issues.

just look back and remember all the "offtopic" posts over the years.... Births, marriages, divorces, vacations, funny grooming experiances, talking about our favorite pets, trucks, fishing, hunting, bars, beers, relationships, and sadly occasionaly the passing away of loved ones.

One of the best reasons I love the Wall is because it has taken a lot of TV time away. That in itself is great.

The Wall is a live entity. We all contribute, and we all must thank Dan for keeping things going, and giving everybody the chance to speak their minds, make mistakes, and even correct them later. How unselfish of Dan to keep things going for free when he probably could have started charging us to be here. Sure we buy books, and a lot of guys are using the Find a Contractor feature, but I wonder whether or not the Wall is a liability to Dan.

If Dan feels he has to censor some idiots who take advantage of the liberties we enjoy here, I cannot complain. The site has his name on it.........

That my 2 cents

Cosmo

Mad Dog_2

Chris...I have been in your shoes many times here

First, and foremost, this is DAN'S Pub here. When the "drunks" get out of hand and start to impose on the nice quiet couple in the corner, Dan will politely ask you to "take it easy." If one carries on, he will gradually step it up, and in severe cases, toss you THRU the front door. I for one - especially in the earlier days (as is my nature) HAD to test the waters and see how far I could go. I have been through some of the nastiest verbal fussilades in Wall History and Dan always gives LOTS of leeway. Like my Pop always said growing up: "THIS IS NOT A DEMOCRACY HERE< BOY....but a benevolent dictatorship...when you pay the bills and the mortgage, come talk to me. Bottom line, we all need a little "check" at times. When it comes from love (as it always does with Dan) I cut the ---- and listen up. I forget what the topic was about, but it doesn't matter...I probably eevn agree with you. This is one of the most uncensored places on the internet. Your newspapers and media ARE CENSORED ALL The time. Chris, take a blow - have a beer or 5 and chalk it up: you have had your first brawl-at-The-Wall. This is STILL!!!! the greatest interactive website EVER created!!!!!!! Your potential buddy. MaD Dog

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