Win, lose, or draw...censorship?

ALH_4

I have become a little heated at times, though I get heated about technical issues and not people. Later, I usually look back and wonder how I could have gotten so upset about ball valves, for instance.

I am not sure how everything is set up currently, but might multiple moderators help relieve some of the load on Dan? It just takes someone trustworthy and level-headed to nip these personal disagreements in the bud.

chris_86

I do get hot under the collar at times,...

and the truth is not always fun to look at, but censorship...we all lose,... why? Dan?

Steamhead (in transit)

This is Dan's site

and he makes the rules. I would have done the same if it were my site.

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Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

If I may....

That wasn't censorship IMHO. The thread had long since gone way past any reasonable discourse and descended into anarchy where otherwise fine folks had lost any sense of decorum.

Having a different opinion, especially here, shouldn't be legit grounds for nasty & rude responses that would garner you a black eye or lost tooth in a real-world face-to-face meeting scene.

Having opposing viewpoints can, at times, be enlightening. Or, as was the case in that thread, an excuse to cut loose with what comes out of a goose!

Rich Kontny_3

Happened to Me

It happened to me about 4 1/2 years ago and to tell you the truth I needed a time out to get my head straight!

I was bitter over the flat-rate issue and truly was way too passionate about my stance.

Since I have come around to respect Dan and the great people who post here. We all can be jerks sometimes, the key is to admit it, adjust and move on (or out)

Rich K.

DanHolohan

Exactly.

Respect each other and I won't have to do this.

Tim P._2

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me." --DF Malone

Just do it with respect!

Tim

Maine Doug_52

When a

dog poops in the house, it needs to be cleaned up. The guests would start to ask questions otherwise.

Steve Ebels_3

It helps to remember that we are all in the same boat

The human boat.

Not one of us is greater than the rest of us, no one has the corner on all knowledge and everyone has a right their own opinion even if it's wrong.

It is indeed a fact that we have complete freedom of speech in this country. What is unsaid but implicit in any of our nation's founding documents, is that with great freedom comes great responsibility to use that freedom wisely. When we use our freedom of speech in a vindictive and condescending manner which does nothing to advance a discussion our freedom of speech is being abused.

More than once I have caught myself beginning to type an acerbic (to say the least) response to someone who richly deserves it, (at least in my estimation) only to remember the Golden Rule, which is indeed a higher form of government than our beloved Constitution. I think that Dan would have us all adhere to that code of ethics when dealing with each other at any level, not just here on the Wall. Something tells me that an even Higher Power than Dan would have us live by those words also.

Uni R_3

A politically incorrect yet humourous follow up...

But, I've learned plenty from agreeable women!

John R. Hall

A journalist's perspective

I used to be a hot head when it came to e-mailing people and leaving unflattering messages on website chat rooms. The newness of the Web made this so COOL. But as I matured (in some ways) I realized that I was making a fool of myself. The written word is out there for a long time, sometimes forever. The spoken word only lasts a moment (if it is not recorded). Yes, I still get angry and start to write something retaliatory. But then I reread it again before hitting the send button. And the next step is usually to hit "delete." This is even more apparent to me now that I am a journalist and have to fight for credibility all of the time. Dan has allowed me to spout off and show off -- and I am grateful.

Brad White_170

I saw that UniR

Agreeable women indeed!

Happy Valentines Day- You are SHUT OFF!

Enjoy the couch.

Your Wife.

realolman

So...

are people posting under other people's names or what?

I suppose that was really Mrs Uni?

Joannie_12

Not Censorship

People need to stop using that word on private websites. Censorship is something that is done by a government. This is a private site. The owner can do as he pleases, and it's NOT censorship.

Heated arguments are not touched by our host, as long as people are respectful. You don't seem to have mastered the art of disagreement with respect yet.

Dave_4

Dan

Is there a way to prevent hijacking? The past couple of days were brutal.
Thanks,

Rick

Al Corelli_2

Did I miss something?

Please don't tell me I offended someone and don't have the satisfaction of making a total butt of myself. Actually, I'm a total butt all the time, I just don't publicise it.



Somebody please splain me what happened. Email is fine.



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DanHolohan

Yes,

we could set up the Wall with user names and passwords that I would have to approve, and that you would have to use before being able to logon or post to the Wall. It would essentially make the Wall a private club.

Is that what you want?

jackchips_2

No

and it works just fine they way you have it Dan.

Thanks,

Jack

heatboy

Absolutely not.

I don't think it's that difficult. If someone says something completely out of line, just let it go. Don't dignify the post with a response and the poster will probably go away if he is ignored. Naturally, that means the rest of us can't take the bait when offered. When I read a derogatory post, the whole thread beacomes dead to me.

I have very little patience for wasted bandwidth.

hb

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DanHolohan

That's a mature approach.

The only time there seems to be a problem is when Marianne and I take a vacation and I'm not here to monitor each post.

Another option would be to shut down the Wall whenever I go away. We could vacation together.

Bob Bona_4

you mean

you'll take your laptop to the beach, Dan?

Unknown

Dan, is it possible to simply add user names and passwords, and allow guest access?

At least then people who want to protect their identity in this very visible forum can do so, without locking out guests, and hijacking would not be possible.

Would probably make your job a lot easier as well. I can't imagine why you would have to approve each new account either...?

Frankly, I love this place, but this forum software is in serious need of an upgrade. Having posts dissapear after 3 days, findable only through a fairly weak search feature, is pretty old-school. There are a lot of good software programs out there these days...

Just two cents from a long time forum addict either way I'll be here and you're doing a great job. Thanks Dan!

DanHolohan

Why I would have to approve it:

Day One - some knucklehead logs on as you, with your name and e-mail address. Next day, he logs on again as someone else, with that person's name and e-mail address.

So I have to know that it's you, Rob. I'll have to give them a test.

How many people will go to the Wall when we have to do all of that?

And for this, I will have paid thousands of dollars.

Unknown

If I already have an account with a PW, he can't log on as me.. that's the point. Then I have a personal account that verifies that it IS me when I post.

If you're worried about someone actually trying to create an account pretending to be me, that's pretty uncommon in any online forum, first of all. Secondly, there isn't much point in people trying to pretend to be people who don't come to the forum typically... and if the "victim" does come to the forum already, they probably already have an account, which makes "spoofing" pretty difficult... the hijacker would have to figure out not only your email address but also your private password. In all my years of forum hopping, I have never, ever seen anyone's forum account passwords get hacked. Worst case I have see disgruntled Ex's log on and act like a jerk for a day or so during a breakup

*Right now* anyone can log on as me any time they like, and you have to check IP addresses to see if is me or not... maybe. Hopefully they aren't on my ISP or you'd never be able to tell if my dynamic IP happens to change!

If we actually could use PW protected accounts, I guarantee you would not have to do as much as you do now, and I don't see a single reason why you would personally have to police every account creation... maybe, once in awhile, you'd have to check up if there were a problem. Maybe. And if you allow non-account posting as you do now, you get the best of both worlds... people who are invested in their online identity have their password protected, recognizable accounts, and guests can post without registering and everyone can see they are not registered.

JimH

validation doesn't have to be exclusive

Although the guys over at plbg.com are pretty cranky and
I don't go there that often, they have a good tight validation process where they email you a link that you
click to activate. There doesn't seem to be anybody
scrutinizing applicants, but there probably is some software checking to see if anybody is trying to create additional ID's from the same email address. Although
the regulars are a kind of prickly bunch, they don't have trouble with imposters stirring up a bunch of crap.

I would favor a slightly tighter ID and login policy. In
an environmemt where anonymity is possible, a small percentage of people will engage in name calling and personal attacks.

-JImH

Mitch_4

Mr. Holohan

I too get Hot under the collar, when I see inflamatory remarks and I apologize to youfor any of my posts you felt you had to remove.

Please leave the site as is.

(my word if you have user names and passwords, Mr. Reardon will have a field day. He already thinks this is an exclusive place)

Brad White_9

\"Daylight is the Best Disinfectant\"

Dan- I would keep the forum the way it is. You have rights of refusal, it is your house and home, your rules. You are a fair, tolerant and gracious host.

When the flaming starts and anonymous or scurrilous postings postings occur, it is obvious to any and is often pointed out. There is a lot of self-policing here and interlopers or those whe bend or outright break the rules are called on it.

Those postings under assumed names are sometimes made in a light vein, nothing wrong with that; it is the ones aimed to insult and hurt in a by definition cowardly way, that stand out and are rejected accordingly by reasonable minds.

Reasonable folks see this and filter accordingly.

As The Wall stands now, it is an incredible forum of spontanaety, real time thinking and re-thinking, the existence of which leaves me grateful.

Paul Fredricks_3

I think he means he's taking us all on vacation next time. I'm packed, let's go!

Uni R_3

Ha ha Bradford!!!

Constantin

Hmmm...

Rob,

I agree that allowing people to create their password-protected accounts could be a first step in the right direction. It would cut down on the impersonation problem. Some BBS-softwares like the one that Alan uses over at OTT or the RPA site do a pretty good job of minimizing admin requirements.

Some of these programs limit the amount of messages that Newbies can post and the IP address is noted every time that a new account is generated. Should a particular IP block become the source of trouble, then that entire IP block can get banned from the Wall.

Trouble is, the minute someone gets a hold of an anonymizing proxy service like Tor then the whole IP-based protection scheme falls apart. The delays that proxy services add to the connection may be enough of a deterrent to prevent people from using them, but some of the trolls here seem to have an ample supply of time on their hands.

As someone who has been attacked repeatedly by cowards posting under false names, I could see why requiring logons, tracking IPs, etc. could be a good idea... that is, if I allowed such attacks to get under my skin. Plus, the diction usually gives away the real author, making the whole dress-up excercise ever more pathetic.

I think the real issue is that the Wall would require a whole new server technology to make such a transition, away from the stuff that Invision has crafted for Dan. I doubt that the risk of implementing such changes or transitioning to a new BBS is worth the benefit.

What could be inexpensive to implement, however, is posting the IP address alongside the message when one is posted. That would flag red herrings pretty quickly, and for all to see.

Any escalation re: verification, etc. does not solve the underlying issue that some posters here are not ready for polite company. Countermeasures against IP-logging exist, so there is no permanent solution to keep trolls off of boards other than requing an government-issued ID everytime someone wants an account. But then the Wall would be a pretty quiet, sad place indeed.

For me, the most important thing is that Wall can continue to exist as the open community it is, warts and all.

Uni R_3

Dan, it's not that drastic and has HUGE advantages...

The board can always be set up so that anyone and everyone can see it -- it's just we'll need to provide a real email address and have a unique name before we can post.

In order to post, a user does a quick registartion and the authorization is emailed immediately. You are completely hands off. Whoever posts is doing it with a valid email address and a unique name. For some strange reason, every Dave here seems to think they have a unique name here. No offence to the Daves... ;-)

The yin and yang of all this is that certain people feel they can act with impunity here under the cloak of anonimity and the software is far too polite in sharing cookies and getting everything messed up for different people at different times. I really think that works better than cookies.

I really feel it would be a positive step and people would still post their questions - and they may even get more responses via email that way. A LOT more people read things here than post.

2¢

Constantin

Hear hear!

I totally agree.

Posting IP addresses alongside message content could deter some of the more exaggreated flaming here, however, and is cheap to implement.

Norm Harvey

Your right Brad, people here do a good job policing anyone who pirates anothers identity.

I tried to get an account at HVAC-talk.com and there were so many hoops to jump through that I said screw it. You had to make a minimum amount of posts to get access to professional forums and all that. Its a shame that I could have helped some people but the administrators had such an "attitude" it was like a power trip.

HeatingHelp not only has a mature gentleman like atmosphere, but it has tremendous credibility.

I can imagine it would be pretty frustrating having someone else post as you and I do agree with other posters about having some kind of registration for tose that want it.

Example, our "find a pro" listing is tied to our email address, if it could be tied to a special log in, you would know it is really that poster if their find a pro add was there.

If nothing is changed to the posting protocals of this website, it will still be the best heating site out there with no competition in site. (with all due respect to RB)

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Uni R_3

Public IP addresses

Publicly posting IP addresses would and should discourage anyone from posting in here when their employer thinks that they are looking busy... *cough*

Googlebots capture most posts here.

Constantin

... and your employer doesn't already log your posts?

Logs can be kept at both ends of a transaction, remember?

If an employer wants to nail you for goofing off on the job, they don't have to use post data here to do so.

[Deleted User]

Count me as

another vote for the status quo. Less is best.

Uni R_3

They do...

But my point is still vaid. Anyone can look at Google, not everyone can or has time to review IT stored logs. I really feel IP addresses shouldn't be made public.

DanHolohan

What most of you don't realize

is that we share this bulletin board with other Invision clients. Invision wrote the software, and it's capable of doing some things, but not others. It won't post IP addresses, for instance.

If we went to a stock bulletin board, where we could see IP addresses, those who pay to have Find a Professional ads wouldn't be able to have their posts linked to their ads. There's a value to that, and I don't think it would be fair to take it away from those who support us by advertising here.

Also, if I ask Invision for something that isn't going to apply to all of their forum clients, I am asking them to tinker with a small part of the overall system software, and this gets very expensive. It can also make things unstable, and we don't want that to happen.

I believe that the occassional user, or any visiting homeowner, would be very unlikely to post if I insisted that they register. And without these people, the site would be far less, and those who support us by taking Find a Professional ads would also get fewer sales as a result. The Wall would become a sterile little club. We've all see that happen to other boards.

We're a small company and we have to carefully weigh costs vs. benefits in all that we do. The Wall is free to everyone, but like most things in life, it's not perfect. I think that if those who post here behave like mature adults and simply ignore those who won't behave like adults (as HB suggests) none of this would be a problem. We could get back to doing what we do best, which is helping each other, and learning from each other, and having fun.

And I should be able to take a vacation without having to worry about all hell breaking loose while I'm away.

Leo G_99

This forum

reflects the real world in my eyes. good/bad etc. We are all mature enough to do the right thing most of the time, and the wrong thing some of the time.

Leave this site as is, and let it help us to grow, not only as pro's, but mainly as human beings.

Thanx Dan for this bit of shelter from a sometimes very preesurized life!

Leo G

PS - am not interested in having my IP or e-mail addy out in front again.

Unknown

Believe me Dan, I know about custom software developement. I've been involved with custom built sites in the past. What I don't know is everything Invision has built in that might not be used currently.

Again, these are just some ideas that invision may be able to support easily or not. If not, then you might want to consider checking out alternative forum software out there... there are many. Or maybe you don't.. I'm just thinking about your workload. Running a forum doesn't have to be much work.

-allowing people to have password protected identities helps, especially if it's not required. It helps a LOT more than it hurts, even if you just have a simple email confirmation link process. The system we have at the RPA is way too complicated, for instance, but there are many forums with very simple, two or three step processes that would in the vast majority of cases allow guest posting as well as PW protected identities that you do not have to police the creation of.

-having a moderator look over things while you're gone helps, since it seems that either you do constantly have to police this forum OR people wait for you to leave to act like jerks.

And just in terms of usability, the dissapearing thread structure and search feature is, with all due respect, very sub par. Obviously not so bad that it hurts your traffic! but in terms of this being a repository of knowledge, it could be much more.

Again, I"m not trying to be super critical.. I love the site, and obviously you're doing something right. Just throwing out food for thought to be considered or dismissed at your leisure. I do hate the idea of you being chained to the forum and dealing with issues you really shouldn't have to deal with though. It's a waste of your time and very considerable talents.

Alan R. Mercurio_3

I don’t mean to be sticking my nose in but as a web host I’m compelled to clarify something here. And I can only speak for my own web site and the software being utilized there.

Though there’s a lot to be said about password protection please believe me there’s a lot of work (time) being spent in the background many do not see. The more popular a site becomes the busier the web host/administrator becomes. With regard to just the password administration end of it. I receive a minimum of 50 submitted registrations a day. I personally review and approve/disapprove each and every one of them. Imagine how frustrating and discouraging it is when 80% of them are not legitimate.

In my opinion Dan and the folks from Invision have done and continue to do an outstanding job here! Keep it up Dan and thanks for all you and your family does for so many of us.

Your friend in the industry,
Alan R. Mercurio

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