PLEASE PLEASE help !!!!UST abandonment or removal.

chapchap70_2

Hi Alex,

Speedy dry is the common term for an oil absorbant which is used to clean up spills. There are many brand names. You could use kitty litter if you wanted to because it is pretty much the same thing. There may be 5 gallons or so of oil/sludge on the bottom of a tank when it is properly pumped out via the fill pipe. If it is a remote fill, the top of the tank is dug up to get to a tapping. The absorbant takes care of the rest. Usually, if the tank is cut open to be cleaned (by a person in hazmat gear), the tank is coming out of the ground.

From what I understand, the chemicals (resin) that make the foam are similar to foam insulation which is used in houses. This stuff expands and hardens as it dries. The fill and vent piping are cut and capped below grade right after the foam is put into the tank and before the expansion of the foam is complete.

One of the companies I worked for either dug the tanks out or foamed them depending on the situation (customer's needs and wants, local law, etc.) If foaming were not a viable option, it would not be acceptable to towns/cities/states as a way to properly abandon a tank. If someone were to go to a town and state he abandoned a tank by filling it with water, would the town give him a certificate stating the tank was properly abandoned?

alex_11

I am just trying to understand the steps involved.

My town officials mentioned that foam filling is DEFINITELY acceptable in NJ.So NO questions or debate about it...

But am trying to understand as to how the foam fill contractor will ascertain that the tank is not LEAKING,since no one stepped in the tank to visually inspect it(do they do some kind of test with some tools).Can you shed some light on this since u mentioned you have worked with a foam fill contractor?Was it by any chance LOMBARDO ENVIRONAMENTAL in elmwood park NJ?

Perry_3

Alex:

The long and short answer is that foam filled tanks do not remove any future liablity on you if the tank has leaked - or if the "remaining" oil in the tank leaks in the future.

The Local government may claim that it is "acceptable" - but your questions are right on.

Let's put this in perspective: Building owners are legally liable for the cost of removing asbestos - and any other chemicals that have been stored or spilled in the building {and the list of strange chemical products that can be found in people's home when they die is really long... the best one I've recently herd was the guy who had a couple hundred pounds of "yellow cake" (uranium oxide) in boxes in his basement...}.

Now there was nothing ilegle about people buying and storing the vast majority of substances or chemicals (and there was nothing ilegle about the guy storing the yellow cake when he acquired it). Thus - there is legal "approval" that is completely separate from the liability to ensure proper use or disposal of the products or items.

You, or your successor will be legally liable for that tank and any spilled oil for as long as it remains - regardless if the tank is filled or not.

Foam filling a tank is nothing more than an "approved" stop gap measure. What happens in the future if they decide that they were wrong and it is no longer "approved". I assure you that the government will not accept any liability for their past approval. You or your successor will have to absorb all such cost as they may be in the future (there are many examples of the government changing their minds about what is approved and forcing people and businesses to pay the cost of complying with the current standards - not everything gets "granfathered in").

In the end - this is your choice. If it were me - I'd pull the tank - do whatever cleanup I had to do - properly backfill (tamping every foot or so) and deal with some settling if it occured. That removes - permanently - any future liability.

I am really not sure that anyone here can add any more that what has been said. It's up to you to decide what is right for you at this time.

Perry

Ragu_5

Alex...

What did you finally decide to do?

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chris_86

Chapter 70 in NJ,...

Listen...DO YOU KNOW when YOU are BEING SCAM'D!!!!

Chapter 70 in the State of New Jersey pertains to Taxicabs!

The State DEP does not recognize any method of filling in buried tanks!

Prove, in writing, that you can leave a tank in the ground under all applicable NJ State DEP regulations?
It shouldn’t be too difficult to post your results here…

chapchap70_2

The only way I can see to prove that a tank is not leaking is to plug all the tappings with the tank empty and do a pressure test. If it holds pressure, it does not leak. This does not prove that there never was a spill. If there had been a spill, it would be difficult to grow things in that spot.

I did not get involved in that aspect of tank removal or foaming. I live and work on Long Island.

How far do we go with this? Spills can occur with basement tanks. The oil goes in the ground by the foundation. Will pre-requisites to all real estate transactions have to have soil tests done? After all, how does one know that a vacant lot was not used to dump used motor oil in the 1950's? How does one prove where the oil came from when all the houses in the neighborhood had buried oil tanks? Isn't asphalt oil based? Maybe we should dig up all the roads.

This all seems like lunacy to me. We are more worried about theoretical damages oil may have to people under the asphalt then actual death and destruction that occurs on top of it. We scream "bloody murder" when cameras are being installed to catch people running red lights. If fewer people ran lights and obeyed the traffic laws, it would lessen the number of actual people who die in accidents but nooo, we can't have that, it violates our constitutional rights. Lets just make people lift up their houses and spend hundreds of thousands to clean up oil because it may raise the pollutants to the water by a couple parts per billion.

Barry_6

At this time there are no New Jersey laws regarding UST's. New Jersey uses National EPA guidlines and regulations. If you have your tank pulled and the contractor does not dispose of the waste properly you still have liability for waste cleanup. A few companies still do pressure testing on buried tanks, but the newer technology uses vacuum and audiological methods. They drop a microphone into the tank, seal all the openings and draw a vacuum. If they hear bubbles you've got a leak (that's another problem). If the tank holds a vacuum, the sludge or oil residue can be diluted, pumped out and the tank can be legally abandoned in place by whatever method a certified contractor sells you on. Once you have the certification from the INSURED contractor your liability is minimized and home inspectors, attorneys and funding agencies will accept this. The important thing is to disclose the facts so there are no surprises.

chris_86

ya, if someone suspects oil???

It is past being a pain when/or if oil spills anywhere, your point is noted however more than one unlucky new owneer has had to lift their home up or remove the basment foundation because of an oil spil. There have been a number of pictures and stories you can search when this has happened. How do you balance the law with those homeowners that want assurance that no spill has taken place versus those that don't think this issue is a big deal? Whole communities have been moved or condemed because of this issue...think Woburn MA and Love canal in the buffalo area amongst just a few. In NJ anywhere near the airports and refinerys soil samples are included as part of home inspections...no one is questioning them anymore...good junkyards are closing nationwide and if you want to build a housing complex you have to get a number of agencys involved...a lot of old junkyards have to wait and sit idle because of this...

chris_86

Barry,...

It might be helpfull if you stop'd trying to persuade us who deal with this issue on a daily basis that there are "not laws" on this issue when there are a multitude of regulations and laws. Feel free to post the NJ office of the DEP they have 3 pages of laws regarding UST'S alone never mind a number of other local cumminities with more stringent laws that the DEP, Atlantic City as one example has more stringent laws than the State. And as far as certification from your contractor, you are sorrily mistaken!

And for mr. Chapter 70 here is a link to 70 http://www.waldwickpd.org/code/Chapter 70.pdf

Perry_3

How far do we go with this...

How far do we go with this?

I have been involved with the abandoment/demonlition proceess of one commercial facility - and sale of another commercial properties.

In the Sate of Wisconsin an environmental assessment is required in order to sell certain types of properties(this is not cheap and involved a fair amount of research and testing - including shallow drilling samples). If the environmental assessment does not find any indication of contamination or problemm - and it is later found the new owners can get cleanup money from either a state fund or some kind of insurance program.

There is talk of expanding this to homes as well - with a program similar to "tittle insurance" as part of a normal home sale transaction.

Of course - if they find something..... Lets just say that it either has to be cleaned up, or the value of the property adjusted, etc. I know of properties that became impossible to give away when they were done with the environmental assessment.

I have never heard of a commercial property selling with an existing abandoned oil tank - regardless if it had been filled years ago. They always tear them up. No one wants to assume that liability when purchasing a property.

Now I cannot speak for other states... But, I suspect that in the next decade or so that this will become part of the home sale transaction... If nothing else because people will want to be able to collect the insurance money if something is later found.

Perry

chapchap70_2

Fuel oil contamination is a bit different than what was found at places like Woburn and the Love Canal. Chemicals such as trichlorethelene (sp?) which is extremely hazardous to peoples' health has been found to cause cancer and leukemia. Fuel oil only has to be placarded according to D.O.T. regulations in cargo tanks because it is combustible. One can legally fill a 53 foot trailer with 55 gallon drums of fuel oil and transport it with no hazardous labels, markings, or placards. If I filled the number of tanks I have with stuff like triclorethelene instead of fuel oil, I may be dead from the vapors. I think the environmental gustapos have gone a little overboard with fuel oil since the health risks seem to be minimal.

By the way, I have been posting here and other forums for a couple of years with this handle.

Barry_6

Chris, perhaps you made a mistake in copying the link...what you have referred to is a link on public transportation. New Jersey and some other states are presently developing regional standards for the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act which governs, among many other issues, commercial and residential underground fuel storage tanks. New Jersey is not yet in compliance but I assume are working on it since there is a federal timeline. Check out http://www.epa.gov/oust/fedlaws/cfr.htm.
Again...what I have stated above is correct.

chris_86

Barry,...

here are just a few NJ web pages,...

http://www.nj.gov/dep/srp/publications/brochures/homeowner/

http://www.fmanj.org/oilheatinfo/undergroundstoragetanks.html

http://www.fmanj.org/oilheatinfo/undergroundstoragetanks.html

The abouve link is from an association that points out insurace for 100,000 is recommended for underground tanks.

You will notice also that this site also states that residential tanks are exempt from most regulations...nothing could be further than the truth Sorry but the wording here is hotly debated and part of a long standing scam by an orgainization that has nothing to loose unlike a hapless homeowner who will be stuck with the bill! Aparently those with nothing to loose are pretty free to say whatever they want! Let the buyer beware and take you scam elswhere...

The chapter 70 reference is to taxi cabs, an eailer poster was again trying to scam some of us who have been thru this before...

Perry_3

I note that...

The state of New Jersey site says that the homeowner is responsible (and they will send you a detailed explanaition of that responsibility if a leak is ever detected).

The State of New Jersey is also offereing a "No Further Action" letter for all tanks voluntarily removed with any spills remediated. That letter can be used for Real Estate transactions.

Alex: This is the letter you want for the future sale of the house. Really. But it requires you to pull the tank and do testing and any remdiation needed.

I will note that Voluntary action is usually described as actions taken before a tank leak or spill is detected. If someone else complains and a leak or spill had occured... It is probably no longer voluntary on what the homeowner can do...


I note that the second site states that "all residential tanks are exempt from federal regulations.." That might currently be true.

However, note that it only claims that they are exempt from "most" state regulations.... and then the site list NJ's requirments that indicate responsibility for the homeowner. OK - you are exempt from 99.999% of the state regulations that do not apply to underground oil tanks. I get it... (hardy har har)...

Not very helpfull or accurate in this case... because NJ has - as indicated by both sites - specific regulations that apply liability and resonsibility to the homeowners of a leaking or a overfilled (spilled) underground tank...

Perry

alex_11

Perry

Can you post the link for the page that describes the

"The State of New Jersey is also offereing a "No Further Action" letter for all tanks voluntarily removed with any spills remediated. That letter can be used for Real Estate transactions."

Thank you very much.I am keenly reading all posts and want to thank everyone.Do not hesitate to post your opinion.

I would also like to know how the contractors LIABILITY come in play if leak is found after abandonment.Any details on how environmental contractors liability insurance works?

Ragu_5

Alex...

What did you finally decide to do?

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Perry_3

Alex:

All I did was just reword slighly what was posted on the above link - the NJ state one. There are really only two links in the above post as the second link got repeated twice.

Go up to the post above mine - go to the first link - and read it carefully.

As far as the contractor liability. The contractor is not liable at all for any existing leak or spill (or even for the rupture of a seriously degraded tank with oil in it).

If the contractor should create a leak in an otherwise very sound tank - they would be liable for cleaning up that leak.

I can't imagine any contractor - or any insurance company for the contractor - doing anything but that. They are not liable for how degraded your tank is - and are not liable for any leaks or spills that have occured.

You will also find that foam filling companies are not liable for any of those things either... But you do get a tank that is filled mostly with foam - which may actually be harder to dispose of in the future (what scrap yard wants that...).

Perry

pete_22

"6. Is my heating oil UST regulated?

Heating oil USTs with an aggregate capacity of 2,000 gallons or less are exempt from the UST regulations.

Heating oil USTs of any size, used exclusively to heat residential buildings, are exempt from the UST regulations"

Read this on http://www.state.nj.us/dep/srp/bust/faq.htm#b6

Perry_3

Difference between regulated and liabilities - READ Question 10

However; Question 10 is most enlightning...

"10. Do I have to remove my UST?

No, if your tank system is not temporarily closed as described below, and is in compliance with all applicable regulations, you do not have to remove your underground storage tank. All regulated USTs must be upgraded or closed by December 22, 1998. It is, however, good practice to remove USTs not currently in use and may reduce ones environmental liabilities.

See link for part on temporary closing of a regulated tank.


------------------


Note the difference between what is leagle to do... and what you are liable for.

Many are right. You do not have to remove your tank. You can foam it, fill it with sand, heck - even fill it with cement.

That does not change the fact that you are still liable for any spill or leak associated with the tank - and all cost of removal or remediation at that point.

May I suggest that the next person who wishes to state that Alex does not have to remove the thank offer to fund the necessary insurance to handle any future liability associated with the tank.

I have never claimed that he should just do what was legal. I have always claimed that the best option from a liability and future affect on his property would be to remove the tank and clean up whatever needs cleaning up.

Perry

Mad Dog_2

Enough already....Alex

I think you have enough information to make a decision. Time to fish or cut bait, dude. No disrespect meant, but C'mon. Mad Dog

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