PLEASE PLEASE help !!!!UST abandonment or removal.

brucewo1b

ask the contactor to fill in 9 inch lifts and compact each lift and that will reduce settling to a minimum, and if you want to get two prices to just backfill and you may decide to just live with settlement and fill later. You can also ask to have an equivalant fill as to what is there now but make sure it is sand within 12 inches of the foundation.

alex_11

Alex

I am a home owner and need advise from fellow wallies.

This home has an active UST.I am planing on replacing it with a ROTH above ground tank to be installed in the basement.

This UST is under a concrete walk way and is not leaking.

I have the following three options

Option 1 : I know that removing it will be the best option but it is going to damage the walkway and distrub the set up.It is also too close to the (finished) basement wall and I fear that once its removed water may start seeping into the basement.

For option I my question is:if I remove the tank will the tank removal company refill the hole with COMPACTED debris (will they also crush the concrete slab or just leave it in place).Fearing that they may just fill the hole with loose dirt (and possible water seepage into the basement)I am lingering on to the in place abandonment.

Option 2: If I abandon and have it sand filled,it requires the concrete slab to be ripped open for a man hole to be cut into the tank,per the local codes here.Thus disturbing the surrounding and so I am not very keen on going with this option.

Option 3: Is to get it foam filled(I am most interested in).This (foam fill contractor) tells me that as long as the tank is not leaking,he will fill it with foam thru the fill vent.So nothing gets disturbed.Also the tank is not in a high water table zone,so tank becoming buoyant is not an issue.

At this point I need advise as to which way to go.I would sincerely appreciate if any one has gone through this experience and would like to share their story.The most important reason to undertake this adventure is to improve the house's future re sale.

Will a legally abandoned tank pose issues to potential buyers.I am in Northern NJ where oil heating is not out of the norm.

Please advise.Thank you in advance.

chris_86

Ya, buried tanks in NJ are a problem, filled or not! Bite the bullet and dig up the yard! The problem is you won't find anyone to certify there is or isn't oil there! And any foam installer is interested only in selling their pricey foam! And come sale time yo will take a hit because the issue is a non-defensable issue, the more you talk about it the worse it gets and potential buyers walk the other way and if you get caught not disclosing the exsistance of a buried tank no home inspection in the world is going to stop the new owner from finding a lawyer to find you!

alex_11

Any thoughts on my specific questions?compacting the fill after the tank dig up?

chris_86

Dig a big hole and your going to need fill, most reputable companies the landscaper will compact near the top esp if you are going to repair with a new walk. As far as increasing the risk of infiltration into your basment...ya it's a risk but most basments if they leak are going to continue to leak anyways. This is a common concern, and if you have a wet basment there are a number of books on the subject as well as basment waterproofing companies out theere. If you want to compact the material as the hole is filled in you are free to do this, nothing bad will come of this, but of the million or so homes we have seen when foundations are back filled no one generally bothers to compact the fill at various elevations, they generally only worry about the last foot or so. Except at the nuke plants and grade over 3 feet WAS compacted every 2 feet per the spec. did not doing this cause more than one depression, yes it does, and I am willing to bet if you walk around your hood or any spec home tract development you will see more than a few depressions because of people in a hurry near the foundation wall. But don't go jumping into any holes over 3 feet that are not shored up, the risk of collapse is all to great and this type of death takes place on a regular basis by those who think they know better. You can always add more dirt to a depression but come sale time it's hard to explain away an undisclosed tank.

alex_11

thanks cris

I appreciate your reply.Anybody else would like to share their opinion.I am more interested in knowing whats options most folks went with,given the situation I am in.,

Any and all replies are appreciated.

Bob Bona_4

pull it

As a former tank Amnesty program member here in CT, and a HAZMAT certified contractor, the right thing to do is pull it. Chris said all the right things.

Future buyers are going to want to know that your tank never leaked, and the soil below is not contaminated. They are going to want documentation that the tank was pulled according to current DEP/EPA/HAZMAT standards, and you have soil tests to prove you are clean. Not having this will kill any real estate deals in the future. Pulling the tank can even prevent possible near future incidents such as neighbors complaining about contaminated wells/property from underground plumes that happen upon a tank leak. Seen too many, and seen the astronomical cost of clean up.

Abandoning in place is a bad idea-foam, sand, whatever, and is shortsighted.

clammy

NO FOAM /Removal

Alex do yourself a real favor and just grin and bear it have the tank removed ,filling with foam is bull i have seen a few which only had about 1/8 of the tank filled with foam and and the rest took on rain water .as for distrubing your side walk that a small bag of shell compared to what a leaking tank would cost you to clean up ,do yourself a real favor have it removed the soil re graded and compacted and a new section of side walk poured or removed and put back in place it can be done ,all that would still be probalby 1/4 of what a leaking tank would cost .I am a native jerseian where are you located there are a few guys i know who are very good at this and not over the top on price and do the job .Here,s is my e mail maybe i can hook you up with them they are excellent at what they do peace and good luck clammy E mail RDEUZA@aol.com

Mad Dog_2

Put this future headache behind you NOW

If you don't it will come back to haunt you when you least need it, i.e., you're trying to sell and retire or you need to refinance. Concrete is cheap enough. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

jeb

foam

I have had 6 tanks filled with foam and no problems yet.
I used www.lombardoenvironmental.com

Perry_3

How in the world do you know....

How in the world do you know you have no problems.

Did you dig a tunnel under all the tanks and test the sand/soil for leakage?

Short of something like that - you really have no way of knowing if the tank leaked or not.

Also, are you sure that you got all the residue out of the tank. It could leak in the future.

Without proper cleaning of the tank (with record) and without testing under the tanks to verify no leakage... all you have is the "I don't see a problem - thus I'm going to believe that I don't have a problem" syndrome. That has proved very costly to many other people when the unseen problem was found.

Perry

Ted_9

gasoline clean-ups

I don't have and experience on this, but the family business is a gas station. I know how expensive soil clean up is. Have it pulled professionally(no comments Perry) and hope there is no soil contamination.

EDIT: wow Perry, you beat me to the post. Please, no comments on the word Professional.

Massachusetts

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swanmech

Had 1500 gal. removed

I recently had a 1500 gal. tank removed. (underground) at my residence. (NJ) Not too costly ($1800). Tank did not have no holes or leaks but there was evidence of an overfill. DEP had to be notified, And now i am in the process of having a Plume Delination test($$$) to determine if thre is further contamination or not.
I'm Not very happy about this but i rather deal with it now then later.
.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

alex_11

Bruce, can you please elaborate on what u mean by 9 inch lifts.Any internet link that can explain more in detail or if you want to describe it a bit.

As for the foundation,I think you are implying that the side of the foundation be sand filled,right?

Please forgive me for my lack of knowledge on this subject.

I will sincerely appreciate all you comments.

alex_11

Bruce, can you please elaborate on what u mean by 9 inch lifts.Any internet link that can explain more in detail or if you want to describe it a bit.

As for the foundation,I think you are implying that the side of the foundation be sand filled,right?

Please forgive me for my lack of knowledge on this subject.

I will sincerely appreciate all you comments.

brucewo1b

Sure Alex

All I mean by 9 inch lifts is that they dump enough soil in the hole to raise the height by 9 inches ie 6 to 12 is ok and then compact the soil with a gas type tamping machine to compact the soil to a 90 to 95 percent compaction desity. That way you will have much less settlement of the hole in the end. And then keep doing the filling in lifts and compacting until the hole is full. the twelve inches of sand beside the foundation is to promote drainage and keep any large rocks from contacting the foundation. In my area there is a lot of clay soils and clay holds moisture and expands at a large rate when fozen therefore another reason for the sand by the foundation. Unless specified by code simaliar material should be used in the hole as found around the hole so that freeze rates and water perculation are about normal and your sink hole fears should be nil. I would as a precaution give it one winter to freeze and thaw before rebuilding the concrete walkway.

alex_11

Thank you bruce.

I see lots of NJian replies..but can you guys add the name of the contractor and price you paid to have it done.I am totally illiterate on this issue and any advise or insights will go a long way and will sincerely tank you for all your feedback.

alex_11

> All I mean by 9 inch lifts is that they dump

> enough soil in the hole to raise the height by 9

> inches ie 6 to 12 is ok and then compact the soil

> with a gas type tamping machine to compact the

> soil to a 90 to 95 percent compaction desity.

> That way you will have much less settlement of

> the hole in the end. And then keep doing the

> filling in lifts and compacting until the hole

> is full. the twelve inches of sand beside the

> foundation is to promote drainage and keep any

> large rocks from contacting the foundation. In my

> area there is a lot of clay soils and clay holds

> moisture and expands at a large rate when fozen

> therefore another reason for the sand by the

> foundation. Unless specified by code simaliar

> material should be used in the hole as found

> around the hole so that freeze rates and water

> perculation are about normal and your sink hole

> fears should be nil. I would as a precaution give

> it one winter to freeze and thaw before

> rebuilding the concrete walkway.



Thank you bruce.

I see lots of NJian replies..but can you guys add the name of the contractor and price you paid to have it done.I am totally illiterate on this issue and any advise or insights will go a long way and will sincerely tank you for all your feedback.

Steve Garson_2

If are really are concerned about water in your basement, install a trench parallel to the house. Drop in four inches of crushed stone with a perforated pipe on top, pitched toward a dry well. Then fill the trench with stone and you'll never have water from that side of the house again.

Maine Doug_52

Ahhhh, New Jersey

Lived in NJ for 13 years. Watched that big "chemical waste recycling" place blowup and burn for 3 days-- pretty colors. The advice was don't drive behind tankers on rainy days because they were unloading.
And you have to do a plume test while there are thousands of leaking tanks all the state. Can you imagine what the Deepwater DuPont place has in the way of plumes? oy vay

Perry_3

Another item

If the tank is near the basement wall. It would not be that much work to excavate and waterproof that area of basement wall (and even put up a layer of 2" insulation against it either).

Perry

alex_11

how easy it

is to waterproof?Can I DIY,any pointers?

Perry_3

Several ways

One of the more common ways to waterproof the outside of a basement wall is to spread a goey tar like substance on the wall with a heavy duty brush. Clealy something a homeowner could do (just plan on tossing the cloths you are wearing - a good job for old cloths). Just be sure you get a really good product (not likely to be the cheapest product). I am no longer sure which products are out there - except old fashion bitumin (asphault) which works well for a while. I am sure there is some form of laytex or other rubberized compound out there now that will probably last 100 years.

Profesional waterprofers may spray something on. Check with new construction people on what they are putting on new basements.

Perry

chris_86

ALEX!!!

Don't worry about the dirt and the hole in the ground, pull the tank, have a beer and watch the back hoe fill the hole full of dirt! Basement waterproofing is a huge subject that you have already spent too much time worrying about. Is it a diy project, only if you want arms bigger than Sylvester Stallone without taking steroids? If you work for a living you don't have the time to move 6 yards of dirt, it would take a year of weekends and cost you your marriage. The foundation will be ok!!

Be warned however that there are a number of misinformed individuals that think they know better about underground tanks...talk is cheep when it's not your house!

alex_11

But will the backhoe

compact it.Uncompacted dirt will seep water into the basement(very likely) and I just finished by basement.If water seeps in it will DEFINITELY cost my marriage.

Thank u all for your replies.However no one has recommended any contractor they worked with here in NJ.Any reco will be highly appreciated.Clammy provided me one,thank you for that.

chapchap70_2

I've worked for two companies that foamed tanks. I never used the foaming equipment. Getting the tank empty enough for foam is not expensive. I've gotten tanks prepared for foaming by using a vacuum pump truck for one company and with a small transfer pump into drums for another. The tanks had less then 1" of liquid, usually about 1/2" when I was done.

I do not know the laws of New Jersey. On Long Island, foaming is a legal way to abandon tanks. When the company completes the work, the homeowner gets a certificate stating the fact that the tank is abandoned. I believe this is sufficient for transfer of property and no more testing needs to be done.

I would check into this, Alex because it seems that some posters to this thread posted with no first hand knowledge saying such things like "the tanks are only properly (oops partly)foamed, they don't get the oil out, and they only want to sell their foam." We all know there are bad companies in every field but to call a whole niche illigitimate without the facts is irresponsible.

Get in touch with your town or county regarding the laws of abandoning tanks. Foaming may or may not be sufficient.

Edited to add last two sentences.

pete_22

foam

chapchap70,
Good point. In NJ foam is fine for abondoning a tank. I'd rather foam fill then open a can of worms by taking out the tank. As long as you have the have the certificate stating you tank was properly abandoned you can transfer your property. I have never been asked by a attorney or bank to do soil testing on house that previously had a oil tank. Call your attorney and ask him what he thinks.

Perry_3

OK what about...

if the neighbors find contaimination 5, 10, 20 or more years down the road... and it is traced back to that foam filled tank. Turns out it had leaked prior to being foamed - and that last 1/2 inch left in the tank before foaming does not help it. It just took a number of years to migrate to the neighbors...

Is the Foam Company going to be responsible for cleanup cost... or the homeowner.

From a long term liability standpoint. You are far better off to pull the tank - and deal with whatever problems exist now.

From an ability to sell the house... There are people out there that will not consider your property if it has a tank - foamed or not - buried on it.

Foam may be legal, and may even work more often than not. But it does not remove the liability if there is a problem. It does not remove the tank either.

Perry

chris_86

It is not legal,...

It clearly isn't legal and if you read the posters fine print "you get a certificate" IN NO WAY DOES THIS ABSOLVE THE HOMEOWNER OF THEIR RSPONSIBILITIES UNDER THE STATUTE!

Again feel free to cite any foam/ insulstar dealer that will back you up with a bonded life time insurance policy or will stand behind what they do! In a world full of people selling services to unsuspecting homeowners remediation is a dreaded and feared word having a piece of paper to wave in front of a Judge is like telling a cop because you joined the local police association you shouldn’t be ticketed. Asbestos and oil are very hot environmental issues that many unscrupulous companies are taking advantage of! Don’t be a victim of this scam!!!

Again feel free to cite your company that places foam into ust's.

In NJ the njdep and the more stringent federal "navigation" laws cover residential tanks. The paper work is lengthy and under NJ law as well as NY prior approval is always required. Foam and many other scams are not recognized period. And feel free to post chapt 70 because the dep doesn’t have a clue as to what you’re talking about. All of the oil tank regs and laws are listed on the internet, it is not difficult to find the truth there...

chapchap70_2

Have you looked at a tank chart to see how many gallons a half inch to 1 inch of oil is? Oil absorbant (speedy dry) is also poured into the tank before the foam.

pete_22

I guess I a gambler. I'm not going to loose sleep over it. The whip cream sure looked nice going into the tank........

brucewo1b

Hello Alex

I was once taught that there were three ways to do a job the Right Way The Wrong Way and The Mid Way, now I told you you the Right Way only because of your posted concerns, The wrong way would be to have someone pull the tank and dump in sand and drive off but it will work, The Mid Way is to tamp it with the backhoe bucket and will also get the job done. But only you know your abilaty to pay and willingness to see that it is done as you want. The wrong way will incure more additional fill and depending on the acual time and connditions under which the tamping is done by the hoe will determine how much addition fill will be required for settlement. Now it is totally up to you. If it was in my back yard I would yank the tank and dump in sand, but settlement is a non issue there, if done under my driveway I would do it the Right Way.

brucewo1b

Hello Alex

I was once taught that there were three ways to do a job the Right Way The Wrong Way and The Mid Way, now I told you you the Right Way only because of your posted concerns, The wrong way would be to have someone pull the tank and dump in sand and drive off but it will work, The Mid Way is to tamp it with the backhoe bucket and will also get the job done. But only you know your abilaty to pay and willingness to see that it is done as you want. The Wrong Way will incure more additional future fill and depending on the acual time and connditions under which the Mid Way of tamping is done by the hoe will determine how much addition future fill will be required for settlement. Now it is totally up to you. If it was in my back yard I would yank the tank and dump in sand, but settlement is a non issue there, if done under my driveway I would do it the Right Way.

Adam Buchsbaum

had my tank removed in NJ

Alex, you asked for recommendations. I speak only from my personal experience. I had my underground tank removed two summers ago by ANCO Environmental Services in Berkeley Heights, 908-464-9200. It was under my driveway, next to the foundation. I had two estimates; both companies recommended pulling rather than filling. In fact, pulling was $50-100 cheaper. Neither would have foam filled; each would have used sand. The local fire captain (I live in Madison), who does the inspections, also said that pulling is better from a liability standpoint, because once it comes out clean, you're done.

Anyway, ANCO did a good job. There was certainly settling afterward, probably a good foot or two over the next 6-9 months. As it was my driveway and right next to the foundation, I had the same water concern as you and so had the spot re-paved at the outset. My paver (also local) came back 6 months later and filled it back in for free.

If you're worried about water, I highly recommend calling Advanced Basement Solutions, 888-VERY-DRY. We had lots of water issues from other sources---not connected to the tank---and the proprietor, Rob Walker, did an expert assessment and remediation.

Good luck,
Adam

FredR

Alex I removed my tank and as the fill was being dumped,I ran water in the hole. Ground never settled.

alex_11

Thank you for your information.I will give them a call.

How many permits you were required.I need one for removal and one for installation.

My quote for removal and installation is 3K.

You mentioned filling the hole,did you got it paved right away.I think thats what you imply but making sure I understand it right.

Adam Buchsbaum

I switched to gas, so I do not know what permits are required for a new installation. For the removal itself, I needed only the one permit, which ANCO obtained. At the inspection, the fire chief signed off on the permit and gave the sticker to the ANCO worker on site, who took it to the office. Some days later, I got a letter from ANCO stating the tank had been removed clean, with a copy of the signed inspection sticker and documentation about the disposal of the tank and waste. Several weeks later, I got a certificate from the town confirming the clean removal.

After the inspection, ANCO filled the hole first with the dirt that had been removed and then finished it with clean fill. They only compacted at the top. I have also heard what others have said here---that you can try to have the removal company tamp the fill in small lifts---but I didn't do that. I don't know if they will or if they'll charge more for it.

My paver paved over the spot a couple weeks later; it's hard to coordinate pavers to come on a specific day... Then 6 or so months later I called him back to fill in the depression from the settling, which he did without charge. If you can stand to allow the ground to settle before paving, that's better. Give it a good 6-9 months in that case.

As for cost, you're not supposed to discuss prices on this site, but ANCO was competitive with my other bid. From asking around, others in my situation got very similar prices for tank removal from other companies. I think it's a pretty competitive market in NJ. So you're best off going with a reputable, recommended company. For what it's worth, I was doing a basement renovation at the time, and my GC independently got me a quote from ANCO. I ended up contracting this on my own and contacting them directly. I have a lot of respect for my GC and his subs, so that gave me a nice feeling after I found out about it.

chris_86

Sand,...

If you really want to worry then you should know that sand esp., compacted sand moves water faster than fill or dirt, someone define dirt? Rain water will then make its way faster into your basment. Whereas loam and dirt will hold more water depending upon silica and clay percentage. This is one of the reasons dirt is prefered over sand to backfill. In the Cape May area as well as places with victorian homes near the NJ coast we pay a premium to truck in dirt rather than sand because it helps with high tide and rain infiltration.

This is the same as when you walk on the beach the water rushes out from under your feet making those rings and color changes. There simply isn't enough room between the sand particles and the water gets pushed around. It's also the reason espensive butemin (spelling) and other materials are bonded around, under, and sumps are added, just in case to the foundations in these areas.

alex_11

Thanks Adam..I appreciate your help.
BTW you have a great General contractor..would you mind sending his info.I am looking for a GC to help me finish my second floor bathroom.My last exp with the GC was not that great.He started well,but by the end of the job,lot of things were done sloppily in a hurry etc...not pleasant but had to live with it.

BTW I called anco,the lady sounded really professional...all neatly explained...thank you for your recomendation.

alex_11

What is speedy dry,where to buy and what is the commercial brand name etc for this product.

One more thing,with foam filling,the tank is NOT cleaned right,since the man hole is not cut and no individual gets into the tank ,therefore no cleaning..some vacuuming to pull SOME sludge..therefore lots of unknown,isnt it.

Just trying to understand,I may be wrong,so can you please elaborate...

Dave_4

You're very welcome. I'm always happy to recommend people who've done good work for me. My GC was John Lonsky, of Nu Phase Construction; 973-839-3751.

Good luck!