Pressure for new Steam Boiler too high

chris_86

Norm, I tracked down this IP address from yahoo and it's a multiple poster; changes names at the drop of a hat. And I have to agree -boasting about performing illegal work- isn't something to be proud about, he laughingly takes others safety as a joke that he can pull over us all. Perhaps this is something to think about that this site supports those that don’t have a clue, but all they have to do is post here, let’s hope he doesn’t kill anyone soon.

Rick Wegel

Pressure for new Steam Boiler too high

Just installed a new G0-4 Weill Gold series steam boiler running with oil. The unit's pressure creeps up to 14-15 lbs and shuts off. Will come back on as the pressure drops to around 5 lbs. Running a 1.25 GPM nozzle on a Becket burner. The Unit output line factory is 21/2" and has been reduced to a copper 2"line. There is a Hardford loop on the system. How do I reduce the pressure? I'm thinking in changing the zozzle to a 1.0 GPM. The boiler otherwise works great and the house is nice and warm. It just shuts down to often when the thermostat has not been satisfied due to the high pressure. Any suggestions are appreciated!
Thanks, Rick

Dan_29

pressure problem

What is your pressuretrol set for? It should be set for .5 psi (cut-in) and 1.5 psi (cut-out)-anything higher wastes fuel. This safety pressure control should shut off the boiler if the pressure exceeds 1.5 psi and start it when it returns to .5 psi. At 15 psi the pressure relief safety valve will blow.

If you cannot set the pressuretrol, call your boiler installer to investigate the problem which may include reseting or replacing the pressuretrol. Like some boilers, a pressuretrol can be dead at installation.

Dan

PS: In a post series on "The Wall" several months ago someone mentioned that the steam heating system in the Empire System was set at 5 psi. Keep the pressure down and save fuel.

Brad White_9

Damn the Torpedoes! Full Steam Ahead!

This is not a steam engine but could be a torpedo

You are bouncing off your limits... turn down the pressuretrol... as low as she will go. Cut in as low as she will go, cut out a half pound above that if you can. Post a photo if you can; the more hands-on group can tell you exactly what you have..

I am amazed it works well at those pressures. You could be damaging your vents. Crank her down! Your system will thank you.

We can address the copper piping and other stuff later. This is important.

Steamhead (in transit)

Uhhhhh, Rick.....

are you a heating professional?

If not, and you had that boiler installed by an alleged professional, find another one ASAP!

The boiler is not supposed to build anywhere near that kind of pressure. So it's either way oversized or there is a problem in the system. Start by reducing the Pressuretrol setting as posted above, then get a real steam man in there.

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Brad White_9

Empire State Building

Dan- not even 5 PSIG. They do it with 2 maybe 3 lbs. That tells one plenty!

Rick Wegel

Thank you so much for your responses. No I am not a professional however I am quite handy and always do my own installations (Just installed in my other house 2 Weil-McLain Ultras 150's running in series and controlled by a BCP-3! Awsome set-up)
Based on the responses I got I'm now wondering if the gauge for the brand new boiler is way off. I will check the pressuretrol and re set it.
It is quite possible that the boiler is oversized, however would that cause high pressures? and would change the nozzle size reduce pressure?
I will post pictures tomorrow....
thanks again, Rick

Norm Harvey

One thing I always keep in my mind is my licensing authority. In MASS its the Department of Public Safety that issues me my technician licence.

Doing the installs yourself, who signed your permit applications? Steam at 15psi I would say is a public safety concern.

That's my 2 cents

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Rick Wegel

Norm:
All due respect to your license, I was looking for advise not a sarcastic response.......
I'm glad that most of your fellow licensed technitians at this site have a nicer attitude.
Thanks for....I guess nothing
Rick

Brad White

Rick

I know Norm. Sarcasm is not his style but public safety is.


Not that he needs defending, but his response was not in the least sarcastic to my mind. But it was pointed in the direction of public safety, first of all yours.

He is telling it like it is, outlining his credentials and the authority which grants them, to underscore the seriousness of the business.

You may not like the response but it is not sarcastic. It is the truth. From my perspective, I think he is owed an apology.

Dave_4

15 PSI

Hey Rick, I have been in the Plumbing and Heating business for 30 years and it sounded like you got slammed pretty good to me. You don't own anyone an apology for asking a question....

I have installed a lot of WM steam boilers over the years . There great little boilers.

You do have a pretty serious problem though.....That needs to be addressed rather quickly....

You will probably find the steam valve is starting to let pressure off at 15 PSI . On steam boilers the relief valves will let off anything over 15 and doesn't go full open like on a hot water boiler or domestic water heater.... so unless your looking for it you may not relize it .....

I would check my control wiring to make sure the pressuretrol is in the control circuit.
You may have a bad Pressuretrol or the siphon tube is plugged...... If you bypassed your control devices , your only control would be TT and the relief valve....

Good luck on solving your problem soon....


Dave in NH

Belisle Plumbing & Heating

Mark Hunt

Really?

30 years eh? And you come up with a wiring problem? How happy are you to know that after 30 years you still don't know what you're talking about? Never crossed your mind to ask about venting eh? Must be a crossed wire somewhere? That tells me you have no skill at wiring and no understanding of steam. Feel free to expound more, we will all benefit from your 30 years in the business. I know a guy that has been in the business for 45 years. He delivered parts to the service guys. He has 15 more years experience than you do. Even he says you have no idea what you are talking about. Is this the best information you can come up with?

Unknown

wondering,Rick

Wondering where did you buy this boiler from? Plumbing and heating supply house or the big box store... Sure, post some pictures...

Norm Harvey

If your going to post anonymously and personally attack anyone, find another site.

That was completely out of line.

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Rick Wegel

Norm Harvey

Norm, my apologies! I did not post anonymously and did not mean to attack you.
As I stated when I first asked the question, I was simply looking for some advise regarding operating pressure!

Rick Wegel

Still High Pressure in my Weil McLain Boiler

I just adjusted the pressuretrol and now the boiler is shuting down at 5 1/2 psi and re-starting whent the pressure drops to 1 psi. However with this cold spell we are experiencing the house is taking a lot longer to heat up.
I can probably adjust the pressure down even furtyher but then I'm sure the boiler will hardly stay on for any lenght of time.
So what do I do? Obviouslly the GO-4 rated at 133,000 btu's is probably ovesized for the 10 cast iron radiators in the house. Will changing the nozzle do the trick?
Once again thanks for any advise.
By the way I bought the boiler from a very large plumbing supply dealer in the north-east (Fergurson). I'm also attaching a couple of pictures.

Rick Wegel

Still High Pressure in my Weil McLain Boiler

I just adjusted the pressuretrol and now the boiler is shuting down at 5 1/2 psi and re-starting whent the pressure drops to 1 psi. However with this cold spell we are experiencing the house is taking a lot longer to heat up.
I can probably adjust the pressure down even furtyher but then I'm sure the boiler will hardly stay on for any lenght of time.
So what do I do? Obviouslly the GO-4 rated at 133,000 btu's is probably ovesized for the 10 cast iron radiators in the house. Will changing the nozzle do the trick?
Once again thanks for any advise.
By the way I bought the boiler from a very large plumbing supply dealer in the north-east (Fergurson). I'm also attaching a couple of pictures.

Unknown

Rick,

I just came-in here, and have not read all the postings yet, but looking at those pics I would think the boilers operating pressure would be way down on the problem list, try taking a look in the manual, it won`t say it should be installed like this!

Dave

Unknown

so it the big F sold it to

So it the big F sold to mr anybody off the street....
The boiler is IMPROPERLY piped wrong and pretty obvisly(sp) that the installation manuel was ever opened and studied... You won't get any warranty on this boiler... Get a real BOILER pro to do the PROPER repiping....

Shane_2

Where to begin

I have a few questions, please don't take offense.
Did the installer size your new boiler based on the old one or based on the EDR(equivalent direct radiation)?
Have you or the installer looked at the installation manual reguarding near boiler piping(reducing riser size, using copper for riser)?
Have you checked the pigtail for a blockage?
Have you checked your vents(both main and radiator)?
Have you contacted Ferguson for the name of the local Weil-Mclain rep.?Have you considered getting a pro to fix this?

Norm Harvey

Sorry for the confusion Rick, I was referring to the poster that replied to Dan from Belisle using a fabricated email to post attacking his opinion of your problem in a very overt fasion.

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Jamie Hall

pressure

shame we have some sensitive folks; usually that doesn't happen.

First things first. Oddly enough, the various pressure settings won't change firing times all that much (before someone gets cranked, they will change -- some -- but not all that much). Firing times are controlled primarily by the firing rate and evaporation rate of the boiler (hopefully the burner is sized correctly for the boiler) and by the condensation rate of the system. Both are usually measured by the EDR ratings, which are sort of interchangeable (Sort Of) with BTU/hr or lbs/hr ratings. If the boiler is way oversized, cycle times will tend to be very short, and it will cycle on pressure. If it is undersized, some radiators may never heat or, in extreme cases, you will get essentially no heat at all.

As has been said, 2 pounds is plenty and less is better.

Now. Having said that. If the system heated evenly at a higher pressure, but not at a lower one, you probably have a venting problem. Vents are critical; check them all.

Having said all that... near boiler piping is very important to getting dry steam (it's still saturated, but there's very little or no entrained water) which is important in avoiding all kinds of hard to chase problems -- but very few of which will actually cause no heat.

Good luck.

Steamhead (in transit)

This is how it should be done

a 3-inch drop header on an SGO-9. This is on a Kriebel Vapor system, and feeds the steam into the original boiler's 5-inch header.

Try the Find a Professional page of this site to locate someone who will pipe it like this.

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Dan_29

pressure problem

I had a Peerless piped in a similar manner to yours. The copper mains were "bushed" down from the required 3 inch to 2 inches. The equalizer was improperly installed. It lifted excess velocity wet steam out of the boiler. This caused hissing, spitting, high pressure and "Big Ben Bonging" at the end of a run. My radiator vents were plugged. My line vents were plugged for decades. The system was 40% oversized.

I had a Weil McLain EG/PEG 55 installed by a pro. He installed a full three inch dropped header with an equalizer properly attached to the header. It is in threaded black pipe. The radiators have new adjustabale vents, the line vents have been restored. The result is a quiet system that heats evenly and econonically. I do not reach the cut-out of 1.5 psig until 50 minutes into a 60 minute digital thermostat controlled heat recovery run.

The point is you probably won't solve the problem by derating the burner as the near boiler piping is most likely the problem. I happend to glance at the "Lost Art of Steam Heating" book recently and the chapter on "Near Boiler Piping" described your situation (as pictured) and your response (burner derating) as classic and doomed to failure unless you re-pipe.
Good Luck.

Dan

Alan_11

Wher is it ?

Can't tell from the pictures ,but don't see a pop safety relief valve----I hope you put it in.Also looks like the burner is or was running with a poor draft condition judging by the front of the boilerplateturning white . What were your combustion test readings?

Rick Wegel

Believe I got it!

Thanks so much to all your thoughtfull advise/suggestions.
This weekend I will install a new black iron near piping manifold. The problem was created when I simply followed the old set-up but changed from black to copper and reduce to quickly.
The riser pipe size for the SGO-3 is 2-1/2" out of the boiler and the equalizer "J" pipe will be 1-1/2". I only have one riser pipe outlet and the Weil McLain book does not show a dropped riser. However based on what you gentlmen are saying I will fabricate a drop riser in 21/2" black iron.

-There is a relief valve factory installed on the back of the burner.

-The present nozzle came with the Becket burner.

-All radiators vents are working (I hear them all hiss).
Oddly enough I do not get any banging or noises out of th present setup! It works extremelly quietly, thus I never thought I have a piping problem.

I will have a profesional set the burner air ratio to maximize burn rate. (I did notice the white discolor on the view plate)

Thanks again for all help.

Vermonter

Sexy! [nt]

Rick Wegel

SWING JOINTS ?????? NEAR PIPING

Two of the largest supply shops in NJ had no idea what a Slip Joint is. Any one out there knows? do I need them?
Also is Black Pipe the way to go for near piping or can I use cooper!
Anyone has a picture of a typical one pipe boiler near pipe
setup? Just want to make sure I do it right!

Unknown

oh geeezz

You want to do it right? Then do all of us pros a favor.... Hire a real steam BOILER pros from this site and as well buy some bricks to support this site for getting "free" information...

archibald tuttle

slip joints are probably unions

All this prattling about professionals and the mystery of steam, while rooted in serious developed knowledge, isn't doing steam Boiler pros a favor.

You aren't required to reply to people here and deriding their efforts doesn't build professionalism, rather that is on display regularly in the shared photos, diagrams, and experience on the site.

There aren't very many people who aren't interested in doing the job right who will take on replacing their own steam boiler. And, if buying steam boilers is a crime, then only criminals will own steam boilers...

Your average handy person is going to replicate the existing near boiler piping. As to material,I never used copper in a steam system until I saw a plumber do it. Plumber, I understand, doesn't equate to highly trained steam professional, but have actually seen a number of these copper headers in service for some time (decade plus) without moderate term ill effects.

While worst case scenarios such as prying apart boiler sections may be possible in some circumstances as reported here on numerous threads, I haven't seen evidence of expansion in relatively short pipe lengths causing any problems.

So then the question is galvanic corrosion. An obvious concern, and given that much of the steam heating stuff running has been in service for two thirds of a century, the fact that more of the iron hasn't rotted out is pretty impressive. I'm sure that the galvanic effects in a sytem are chaotic, as to say not purely predictable and it depends, etc., but are there any general rules, i.e. first stuff to go is the stuff most directly in contact with the dissimilar metal. Can you use strategic sacrificial elements to reduce this problem? Do you expect the system piping to simply all fall apart. Is damage concentrated in the boiler or in returns? Before asking these questions I looked for the 'library' link that was mentioned as far as anode effects but could not find any link title 'library'. Am I missing something.

Threading steal is a pain in the butt and obviously there are plenty of contractors who feel that way as well as homeowners. But just because something is hard to do doesn't always make it the most productive or professional solution. There were plenty of people who belittled PVC piping just because it was easier to work with and a 'homeowner' kind of material when it was widely adopted for drainage. But it has proved a superior material in most cases despite this early professional aversion. (Ditto pex and poly beautiful for water and heat service - sure bugs to work out, but this wasn't as a result of homeowner installation to any great extent).

I have an empirical bias against believing the pressure readings Rick was reporting. I just have never seen the many steam systems that I have babysat even trip the pressuretrol at its lowest settings, nevermind make 5 lbs and 15 lbs is right out. Maybe this is a small system with the tightest piping known to man.

In any event, I have some systems that surge like a **** and some that run perfectly. They were mostly piped in the days of yore and none of them have headers that actually invert before delivering steam as in the 'how to do it right' photo.

If you aren't experiencing surging - which does not sound to be the problem here given the even filling of radiators and quiet system operation reported although perhaps massive surging could account for high pressure readings -- what is to be gained in immediate operation benefit from repiping the mains? I'd try to figure out if the pressure gauge is giving accurate readings and compare the firing rate to EDR to see if it is drastically overfired. Given the report of a 50 minute cycle to make pressure on the system described as well headed in a post above, how is downfiring Rick's system that much different, i.e. doomed to failure.

Maybe there is some previous blockage in existing piping so that high pressure is required to effectively reach the radiators. The systems I observe are large houses (mostly 3 story homes with 1 pipe systems) that fill the radiators albeit over 15 to 20 minutes from cold start with virtually no readable pressure in the system.

I understand the near boiling piping is imperfect but is it the problem? Maybe the answer is always fix it first because it usually is, but given that it operated with that similar piping for years before I wonder? (Rick, was the replacement for efficiency, failed low water cutoff, leak, other?? Did you have noise, surging before the new installation?))

Finally, my guess is a that the 'slip' joint you're speaking of would be known at the counter as a "union" and certainly would be required to connect iron piping from a stationary boiler into existing mounted pipe, unless you want to pick the boiler up and turn it around multiple times to make the final connection, nevermind that that wouldn't work for twin riser pipes as seen in the 'how to do it right' picture and you would need a nontraditional connection for the return once you were done spinning the boiler.

You can't see under the careful and impressive insulation job in that photo, but there are probably unions in the immediate vertical risers from the boiler or one in the dropped header that those two pipes 't' into.

It is remotely possible you are also speaking about a field repair or occasionally used coupling that joins pipe without threading it - it is a double compression style fitting that my suppliers call a '99'.

For people who want to do it right, it is silly to take their lack of inside terminology as evidence that they can't.

For people who relate to the world emperically as I do, I figure out how things work by looking at them and copying them and trying it out. That the vast majority of residential steam systems carry pressuretrols that have never actuated (except when the system was erroneously overfilled) and gauges that have never moved the needle, it suggests an industry problem not a homeowner problem. At least Rick knew that his new boiler was operating outside the parameters of the old boiler and thus correctly inferred that his new install might need work. Thus you can credit his observations of before and after conditions. Anyone else could look at the circumstance and say, hey 15 lbs. is the safety cutout and it ain't blowing that, so what's the problem. One wonders why aren't steam boilers to this day supplied with vapostats and pressure indicators with a range more likely to aid in observations of regular operating conditions?

Brian