1 pipe steam versus hot water radiant

Todd_23

I recently bought an old house in massachusetts (built in 1913). The heating system is a one pipe steam system, with the original radiators. The boiler is a burnham v14, with a beckett burner (oil). I've been having issues with the boiler transformer tripping. I've had my oil company out, and they are pushing for me to convert to a new hot water system with radiant on the first floor, and basboard on the second. I originally was thinking of just replacing with a new steam boiler, and adding an indirect water heater. Currently the exterior walls are not insulated, only the attic is insulated. I am working on insulating the walls. With this recent cold spell, we've been using a 1/4 of oil a week.

My question is, is it worth the extra cost to convert to hw with radiant/baseboard? I would like to have multiple zones, and there are a few small rooms which do not currently have heat. I currently also have a few rooms with large radiators which on a bitter cold day, will only heat up about half way.

I'm looking for sugestions/oppinions. I'm an HVAC engineer (commercial work only) and don't do to much with steam. Any advice would be appreciated. I would like to lower my energy bills, and increase the confort. Thanks.

Todd

jim_72

Todd use FIND A PRO on this site ,there area few in your area.It's best to have one come over a evaluate your system before you spend BIG $$$$$. Also there is no better dollar spent to lower energy bills then INSULATE and then INSULATE some more. Good Luck

jim_72

Todd use FIND A PRO on this site ,there area few in your area.It's best to have one come over a evaluate your system before you spend BIG $$$$$. Also there is no better dollar spent to lower energy bills then INSULATE and then INSULATE some more. Good Luck

Brad White

Todd

Todd- I am an HVAC engineer too, in Boston- where in MA are you?

Take Jim's advice and insulate. I would make every effort to keep the steam. I have been guilty in the past of thinking it inefficient and have had enough ripped out on my bad advice. (Yes, converted to hot water and well but at what cost? I did not give the owners the option in my ignorance.)

I seen the light!

There is much that can be done to both the house and the system.

I have HW now but at some deep level I miss my steam heat..

Norm Harvey

Brad!

I never knew you had sined! I am set at ease to see you have repented and paying penance.

Todd, I would have the sytem looked at by a Pro. Its possible that for a small investment you could have proper system performance to live with for a few winters and see how you like it. You can then upgrade if your not happy.

Besides, Im sure your wife would rather spend the new heating system money on making the new house feel like your own home.

My wife and I just bought our home a year ago and its only now that were getting to some cosmetic renovations because she has been feeling like our house still belogs to the previous owners. So now we're painting, and doing some minor interior changes to make it "feel" like OUR home.

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Brad White

Brother Norm!

Yeah I have sinned! I have been in the dark basements of despair, Lawdy, Lawdy, Lawdy! I have sinned...

Thanks to Brother Holohan and the HeatingHelp Tabernacle Choir, I now am redeemed and carry forth the True Gospel of Low Pressure Vapor! Gonna ride on the Train to Glory!
Hallelujah!
Say AMEN somebody!

Ahem... so between us, how can we help Brother Todd keep steaming?

Steve Garson_2

Keep the steam. I'm a homeowner who followed all the advice on this web site and read Dan's books. I replaced my 1920's boiler and installed the right vents and Vaporstat. My oil use went down 20% and the comfort is unbeatable. Much less expensive option than ripping everything out and starting over.

Todd_23

I work for an MEP firm in Boston, and I just bought a house in Holliston. Trust me, I wouldlove to keep the steam, and not spend the money to convert to HW, but the system needs some help. I think (knock on wood) that the tripping problem has been fixed. I still have some issues with venting I think. Any helpful hints that I can do myself to improve the system? My oil company and another installer are working up estimates to convert to HW. my oil company seems to think the cost will be comparable between converting and replacing with a new steam boiler. I don't see how that is possible. The other installer gave me a verbal estimate of around 13k to install a new hw boiler and radiant on the first floor, baseboard on the second. I thought that was extremely low. Lets see what the written estimate is.

What do I do about the rooms with no heat? Right now I have a mudroom, pantry, and half bath with no heat, and the pantry and bath don't really have room for a radiator. Any suggestions?

Norm Harvey

Todd,
I don't know what company your dealing with but I'm guessing they don't know steam. Before you invest in anything serious I HIGHLY recmmend getting a steam PRO to look over your system. I think you would be surprised what a little tender loving care may do.

Who says you need a new steam boiler? It would probably take A LOT less than a new boiler to get your system purring.

Also your reseting, and ignition issues have NOTHING to do with the fact that you have a steam system. Thats a burner issue.

I think your making a big mistake by not having a pro check things out.

Not that I'm trying to sell myself, but even though Holliston isn't in my service area, I wouldn't mind taking a ride out there to have a look. You could also try Dave Sutton, you may be in his area.

Brad, I dont have access yo my email, could you drop Dave a line and see if he services Holliston?

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Christian Egli_2

Hallelujah, Amen, Glory be! Brother Brad!

How we all get smacked on the forehead like they do on TV... I just didn't know it would land us on a heavenly cloud of steam.

And since a scandal is only a closet away, here is an idea for heating the small spaces Todd has in his home: Get things hot by exposing a bit of bare naked riser legs.

All you need to do is inconspicuously poke a vertical pipe through the floor; in a corner, behind a door, anywhere, the pipe can even be horizontal, go kinky if you wish. This pipe very simply fills with steam and keeps you warm. There is a feature somewhere on this site about some New York kitchenettes being heated this very way. Also, I have seen many such schemes in half baths.

Either the pipe connects to further radiators elsewhere in the home or simply add an air vent near the end for proper steam operation.

And now, to cast some stones

One further question, did the guy who considered the conversion actually know what a one pipe steam system is all about? Converting one pipe steam is not as easy as selling one's soul. I can see it coming: you'll be halfway down the main - heatless and beyond the point of no return - and oops, it is discovered all these steam things don't work with water (and not all do). Oh dear, seems like you'll have to replace them then, won't you $$$. Plan on lots of unplanned expense.

But we can repent, steam is very forgiving. With proper care and operation, steam heat comes with all the performance of all heating systems. Different but equal. Steam and district steam in particular have an edge on system wide efficient operation, but all this is marginal at best and any comparison gets eaten away by faulty and poor operation, poor steam operation, poor hot water operation, poor forced air operation, it's all the same thing, a poor excuse.

And, we all are sinners.

Brad White

Todd

Write me off line- We are in the same field and area. Small world in Boston HVAC. Give me a shout.

Brad White

Brother Christian

Your mastery of the English Language leaves me prostrate before your altar. I would LOL but in the verbal church you have created, it might be rude!

I think steering Todd to keep steam makes abundant sense, need for past redemption aside.

Amen!

Todd_23

I appreciate all the feedback. I certainly am going to have a pro come look at the system. Now that the boiler isn't tripping anymore (replaced ignitor and transformer) that will buy me some time. However the firebox inside is deteriorating pretty badly, and the cover plate for the burner is white, from getting super hot. Maybe I could just have the firebox replaced, but again, something a professional should look at. I'll take a few pics of the boiler and post them this afternoon.

With all the other work we have to do to this old house, I would love to just tine the system, and not replace it all. I know that converting will require a complete gut of the piping system, since the radiators are the pre-1920 style. Any recommendations for Pro's would be great.

Thanks Heatinghelp.com. What a great website. I went to one of Dan's seminars too, probably one of the best presentations i've sat through, and I've sat through a lot of them.

Steve Garson_2

Replacing the combustion chamber is no big deal at all. The old cast iron boilers last forever. Put in some good Gorton vents on the mains and you will smile all the way to the bank. It will take 10 years to recapture the cost of a new boiler.

Todd_23

My oil company estimated replacing the chamber was about a 400-500 job. keep in mind this is the same guy who thinks replacing a steam boiler is the same price as converting to HW.

Jamie Hall

Amen, brother Steve

I kept the steam -- and even with a new boiler (which was needed for a variety of good reasons) I've never ever regretted it...

Dave_4

steam IS radiant...

it real hard to retrofit radiant in an old drafty house, the cost is insane, and the host has to be be air tight, as the room temps are low, - and have HeatRecoverVentilators in the right spots, "fo-ged-abow-eet"!!!, keep the steam - make sure the radiators are exposed so that they can RAY-D-8!!!! and do go for a vaportstat and all new vents -

ps you can still do a radiant loop off the steam boiler as long as:
1) all pumps, valves fittings, manifolds are well below the boiler's water line!!!
2)you use a 3 piece bronze pump to pump the sludge through the pex
3)you have spring checks on the supply and return, to hold the water in the loop when the water line bounces up and down
3)you pipe a return-to-supply bypass valve to control the radiant supply temp, and run the boiler until it goes off on steam pressure (ie: hottest water in boiler), then set the mixinng valve for the radiant supply temp, then take the valve handle off and tape up the stem so that nobody even thinks of messing with it ever!!!!
4)you dont want to use this setup under wood floors, only tile or stone - it's the perfect entrance/hall/foyer warmer for a steam house - you dogs and cats will stay there all day

if you dont beleive this works - come to brooklyn ny, and i can show you a live house with this setup and it works great!! the master plumber that did this is Moses Fishman - for whom i do engineering design/drawing work,
this of course, was done years ago, before the new wall hung boilers came out, as they would be a much better fit for the radiant or even the indirect hot water

Dave_4

Go in peace

Time to pass the collection plate.

This site is indeed an invaluable asset to the industry and, on top of it, the Sunday School heating lessons are the most fun ever.

Time to buy some stuff, get your steam bible at HeatingHelp.



(edit note, this message by me first appeared under another name)