Gas Usage is so low... They're changing the meter...

RonWHC

blame for the eco types who keep shooting down coal & nuke plants? How much money & time can investors spend in study after study, after judge after judge, before they throw up their hands & say to he_ _ w/ it? We'll just pass the higher fuel costs along to everybody.

Perry_3

Gas Usage is so low... They're changing the meter...

What happens when you get a new boiler that is much more efficient....

Ahhh... the gas meter stops working right...?

OK, I'll agree that things are not totally kosher with my gas meeter. It does seems that unless you have a high gas flow that it no longer works right... and that it dosn't move much under my low Vitodens boiler firing rate.

So, lets see how the rest of the story works out this year.

But at this time... the gas company will be replacing my meter.

I have already discussed with them that they cannot use previous years usage as a standard to work from.

Perry

Xc8p2dC_2

interesting

There was an article in the paper this morning, that Keyspan [our supplier in the northeast] is filing a lawsuit with the state regulatory commission, to recoup from its account holders, more than $850,000 in lost profits, due to less less nat gas consumtion in 2 counties

The first paragraph stated, "with the energy savings program they implemented and people buying more energy efficient equipment" is hurting thier bottom line

Gimme a break, I pay over $2.00 a CCF and their losing money

Perry_3

Unfortunately.... Its true

Utility rates are set with a strange kind of fuzzy logic.

The utility is expected to recover a lot of cost of operation based on energy premiums.

Here in Wisconsin we almost bankrupted an electric utility be a couple of "cool" summers and warm winters where they did not sell near as much KWH as expected (but the worst peak demand kept increasing).

So, I'm sorry to tell you that you'll be seing a rate increase.

Oh - the meter is now changed. See my new post on that - its interesting...

Tony_23

another version

I have the gas company following me around checking meters on all my NG Ultra installs. One customer is still on a low pressure main and has a meter in her basement. To avoid the estimated bills based on prior usage, I have been reading her meter with mail-in cards for a year. Unbeknownst to me, the company has been also reading it 3 days after me the whole time. If they'd only turn around they would see why the usage is 1/2. Maybe they think they'll catch her tampering, she can't even do the basement stairs

Steven Gronski

hurting whos bottem line?

What drastic changes have the gas company made in the last 2 years to justify the ever increasing cost of gas prices as much as 38 percent a year? The distribution system is pretty much the same every year, maybe the wages of the employees goes up 3% a year, medical maybe 10%,other overhead costs,5%? The problem is the corporate greed and the CEO'S of these companys that bottem lines get hurt. Geez........now I cant buy that winter home on the intercoastal in Miami, because my Bonus is in jeopardy due to the lack of consumption of energy minded people, becasue I make so godd#4m much money I can afford 10.00 a cubic foot to heat my mansion in the North. The sad thing is is Keyspan as well as other gas conglamorates implemented the plan to help people purchase and install this energy efficient equipment in the first place,The logic I see here from the gas comapany is "lets still make our bottem line profits, but with the help of energy effiecient equipment, we can stretch out the life expectancy of our gas resoures a few more years, and are billions of dollars a year profits as well". Maybe im wrong though, who knows..........

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Perry_3

How utilities make a profit is strange...

I have spent much of my life working in utilities.

In almost all cases how the utility makes - or loses - money is regulated by a state utility commission.

The regulation is there to susposedely protect the customer on a long term basis. The tradeoff of that is that the utilities are typically guaranteed to make a modest profit.

The standard utility models for how they make their money is convoluted as all get out as I learned when working at a small one where I was involved in a rate case. You would never set up a normal business that way.

The result is that yes indeed - most utilities will be hurt badly by declining sales from a certain base amount.

As for how well the utility commisions really work - and really protect their consumers long term... I have my doubts on that. Most utility commissions have actually burdened the utilities with higher cost of doing business than what most companies have such that the end rate case has to be higher just to maintain a modest profit for the utility. A few utility commissions have recognized that an have worked to lower those utility cost (Florida and Wisconsin used to be the two best at this; not sure where how much this has changed in the last 10 years).

The problem is that a lot of stuff that sounds good and popular to the ratepayers (especially short term programs and items) really hurt long term.

However, all that aside. In the face of declining sales volumes the utility commission will have to increase rates to allow the utility to make a modest profit. Bankrupting a utility will not give you lower energy cost... Several states managed to prove that very well in the 80's (and yes the prevented the ratepayers from one charge - but a finaincially troubled utility cannot borrow money cheaply - and the overall cost of doing business went up substaintially).

Trust me - I know that it is both frustrating and does not make much sense.

Perry

Maine Doug_52

a big hospital

in bangor maine [20 mi from me] built a ng cogen plant for power and heat for the hospital. the local power co tried to prevent it but lost. once the new mini-plant went online the power co applied for a huge rate increase to cover the loss in revenue. oh, the hospital also expected the power co to provide power during mini-plant shutdown.

Plumdog_2

Isn't that Ironic

You go to great extremes to cut your gas usage, for the betterment of the enviroment and all, and they just raise the price to compensate. If only one guy was left using gas, would he pay for all the guys that quit?

Perry_3

Meter charges

In my kneck of the woods the gas company has discovered "meter" charges this last decade. Used to be a couple bucks a month. Now I think its somewhere over $12 per month. Interesting in that 5 years ago they read all the meters by hand - and now all the meters have radio transmitters and one guy can read the meters for our entier small city in 2 days by just driving a car slowly down each street - where they used to have 3 or 4 people who worked full time reading meters.

Wasn't so noticable in the past - but with my Vitodens I now expect the current meter charges to make up over 15% of my annual gas bill (and in the summer it makes up 75% of my gas bill).

Based on discussion in progress I suspect that the meter charges will be on the order of 25% of my gas bill in a few years. The idea developing here is that the utility build more of their routine fixed cost into the meter charge - so that they don't have to make as much on the gas sales. This also benifits the larger gas users becasue the charged price of gas can be lower if more of the fixed business cost are built into the meter charge.

They will always be able to collect money to pay for their infastucture and staff. Long term though - reduced energy usage will result in reduced staff and infastructure (like the 12" gas main can be replaced with a 8" main in 20 years - reducing overall cost). Unfortunately it takes decades for such cost reductions to sink through the system as their actaul equipement changes very slowly.

Perry

scott w.

Perry, I agree with your sumation on what burdens Public utility commisions do to utilities. Lots and lots of politics, especially here in Pennsylvania. For a small utility ( used to work for one) it was very expensive and very difficult to get a rate increase. If the comapany needed 30,000 in additional net income you had to ask for 100,000 but you would end up with only 20,000 aproved. Allof course based on rate of return, cost of capital, annual expenses, ect.

Yeah, one winter after the Ultra went in I noticed wrench marks on my previously painted pipes at the gas meter. Gas company either changed the meter or checked it. They never seem to check when the problem is in the other direction.

Get this one. My mothers house they changed the meter which the gas company is supposed to do every seven years. They apparently checked the old meter and found that it ws slow.
On the following month they billed for the difference of the month previous plus a late fee plus a penalty because THEIR METER WAS SLOW.


Pennsylvania Gas companies all have a monthly meter charge. Mine is 10.00. The stat of Pa then takes its unfair share in utlity taxes....the state legislature uses utlities as a captive arm of the Department of Revenue!!!

Perry_3

State Taxes hidden in Utility Bills

Scott:

Thanks for mentioning the state tax thing. I had forgotten about how much it was.

Yes, folks - one of the reasons your utility bills are so high is that the state places special taxes on the utilitis so that they are collecting taxes for the state... without you knowing it. And it is a considerable chunk of money.

If they just taxed utilities as a normal business - you would see a noticable decline in your utility bill.

Just remember... the state is there to protect your interest....

Perry

Tony_23

Yeah right

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

NYS taxes on NG seem to be about 1/2 the bill.

[Deleted User]

Let's see.

Gummint Agency telling a Utility how to operate. Whose model do you think that Gummint Agency wants the Utility to emulate? Yep. You got it. Then tack on 10-12% profit. Kick the CEOs if you must. But Pogo knew who was at fault.

Frenchie

Meter charges

I wonder at what meter rate I should tell the utility to come and get their meter? I'm down to only using N.G. for my water heater. (also have a gas fireplace that I never use. I could get rid of it) I could either use an electric tank or an indirect. Hmmmm.... maybe when this water heater breaks I will consider this........ I also have a propane tank for heating my garage, and an oil tank for my house so I guess I could use either of those fuels to fire a seperate water heater as well. Decisions, decisions. I don't think I want propane inside my house though.

scrook_2

Gas prices

What drastic changes have the gas company made in the last 2 years to justify the ever increasing cost of gas prices as much as 38 percent a year?

Um, changes in the price of natural gas at the wellhead?

scott w.

Don't forget gas futures are bought and sold on Wall Street. Those guys in the pin stripe suits who deal in gas futures have made more of a killing than the gas companies. Of course if you own a few gas wells you didn't do half bad either.


I blame most of the increase on two industries, Wall Street and the electric companies that built gas fired generating plants!

Joannie_12

True

And don't forget that they won't allow drilling or refining oil in the U.S., so we have to get our oil from elsewhere. Enviromental wackos are NOT our friends.

The Boiler Dr.

Utility Charges

Things are no different up in the Great White North.
1600sq ft back split gas water and scorched air
In '89 my TOTAL gas cost was 824.83 for 12 months - including base meter charge which was 7.50/month
In '99 Total cost was 1348.61 not including base meter charge of 12.00/month but actual fuel cost was only 67.48% of of the total
In '05 Total cost was 1741.66 not including base meter charge of a new lower cost 10.00/month but actual fuel cost was only 48.65% of of the total
In '06 after changing the furnace to a new 60K high efficiency unit Total cost was 1019.89 not including base meter charge of the lower cost 10.00/month but actual fuel cost was only 41.735% of of the total
YEP ... you guessed it the utility suddenly changed the meter "cause there must have been a problem"! October thru December I was rated on previous consumption - and in January had my bill "corrected" even though I had been calling in the readings. But my most recent bill suddenly shows no consumption and a $384 credit. I am now waiting for another vist from utility

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