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Weil Mc Clain's production of knock off boilers!! What's up?
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pitman9
Member Posts: 74
your company.
200 bucks difference in the cost of the boiler isn't costing you the jobs. Damn few people are going with a particular contractor on a several thousand dollar job because one is a few hundred dollars less...unless the customer's perception is the only difference between you and the other contractor is the price.
Or perhaps there are other reasons you're not getting the jobs. Simple stuff like, do you show up on time for the appointmnet or "a little late"?
Do you find out from the customer the real reason they're having you there? Hint. It ain't cause they want a new shiny boiler in their basement. You need to find their pain and address that.
If it REALLY was the $200 difference in the boiler only the cheapest equipment made would be sold. And don't even think about saying how it's different where you work.
200 bucks difference in the cost of the boiler isn't costing you the jobs. Damn few people are going with a particular contractor on a several thousand dollar job because one is a few hundred dollars less...unless the customer's perception is the only difference between you and the other contractor is the price.
Or perhaps there are other reasons you're not getting the jobs. Simple stuff like, do you show up on time for the appointmnet or "a little late"?
Do you find out from the customer the real reason they're having you there? Hint. It ain't cause they want a new shiny boiler in their basement. You need to find their pain and address that.
If it REALLY was the $200 difference in the boiler only the cheapest equipment made would be sold. And don't even think about saying how it's different where you work.
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Comments
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Weil McClain knockoffs
Does anybody feel as though Weil McClain is selling out?
They are producing boilers that directly compete with themselves for other companies(Williamson,Union Steam and Genesis to name a few).
I am a supporter of Weil McClain and it's products, but am finding that I'm losing jobs to these other boilers. I don't believe in these products even though they are WM products. Am I alone in feeling that they've sold themselves out just for the ability to sell boilers no matter what name is on them? These boilers are exact WM products with different jackets, no tech support and cost about $200 dollars less.
My area (Hudson Co. New Jersey) is being flooded with these boilers and I can't help but feel that I'm not competing with other contractors on jobs, I'm competing with the Weil McClain Corp.
I am thinking about switching to a boiler manufacturer that doesn't work both sides of the fence.
Thank you for your time allowing my rant.
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A large oil company out here uses the Williamson0 -
I know of many companies that are using Williamson.
Weil McClain reps tell me that there is nothing that we can do to slow this down.0 -
burnham
If you use burnham that will slow it down or maybe stop it.0 -
Have you heard of......
New yorker????0 -
WM
To answer your statements; yes I was prompt with my appointed time and the 3 specific jobs that I lost were directly due to the customers saying that they wanted Williamson boilers. They researched them and found that they are Weil McClain boilers in different clothing. I passed on the jobs as a result of these people being too shortsighted to see the future and only wanting to save $200. I don't need these kinds of customers. Thank you for your input.0 -
New Yorker
I don't know what New Yorker is or what it means.0 -
Anthony Menafro
I too felt the way you do about WM however I've changed my tune. WM is (IMHO) trying and is being sucessful at gaining market share, the way I now see it is it gives me the ability to sell more. If I give a quote to a customer I first try to sell the WM but I now have an advantage by offering Thermoflo at a lower cost. My price only came down $200 bucks (depends on equipment) as I'm sure you well know this area is VERY competitive (I'm in Essex Co.)and you just might lose the sale by that same $200 bucks. To make a long story short It's kinda like the lemmons thing " If someone gives ya lemmons, make lemmonade out of it". Just a different way to look at it is all.
Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
WM
I am starting to feel the same way. My only intention for posting my feelings were to get a broader feel for the market and reach out to other contractors for their advice. I'm only twenty years in the trade and have a lot to learn.
I value the Wall and rely on fellow tradesmen.0 -
Anthony
The point I was trying to make (but I always seem to stray from) was when I give a quote now I'm actually giving them several options thus making me more marketable (sometimes I think customers really want to use you but "Hey I can save $200 bucks and take the wife out"). Today in this market environment you no longer have the loyal customers, its who ever will do it a minute sooner and for a dollar less.
Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
second rate products
if a customer wishes to save two hundred dollars by substituting a boiler of lessor quality on a project that is costing thousands , i head for the hills. the labor is the same and quite possibly more when using inferior products. products that are not engineered properly cause problems both initially and also in the future. burnham , slant-fin , peerless. proven quality. tried & true. boilers are hard enough---why take a chance ? i would not.0 -
bob
The boilers are identical. Its a WM with a different jacket.
Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
Robert and Bob
I agree with both of your points. As I said, I walked away from a $200 headache that was coming and it's a very tight market right now.0 -
Wolf in sheep's clothing
The controls and complete wiring are exactly the same0 -
Its a steel boiler Very cheap0 -
Anthony
Forgive me but I just don't understand, what headache? If its $200 less and putting in the identical product with a different jacket is a problem that could of won you the job over AAAAAAAAA- Plumbing & Heating in the first place. I don't see your point. I rarely post pics but here are two boilers of equal outputs, one a WM and the other a Thermoflo. Can you tell the difference? The green jacket boiler allowed me to fill up the wifes car and mine with gas and I took the wife out for her birthday & bought flowers and still had a few dollars left over to buy my daughter this crazy toy she's been wanting.
Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
different names
United Technologies makes Carrier, Bryant, and Day Night Payne. Change the colors or even just the tag-they are identical. Name brand recognition dictates what the price is; here in Chicago, Carrier is a better known name than Day Night Payne-cross the Mississppi, it's the other way around, with prices higher for the more recognizable brand name. Same controls, heat exchangers, motors, ignitors, sold by the same reps. Weil's no different. You might just do some digging to find out that you've been overpaying for the same product-Wrangler jeans with a Calvin Klein label. Heck, we the consumers/contractors keep the lie alive every day-everything we buy has an inherent value and an imagined value;a watch is a watch, but a Timex is not a Rolex. That'd be a hoot, though-if THEY were both the same. Wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that lawsuit...0 -
WM
Weil McClain's stance is that you're paying extra for their product solely because of the tech support you'll receive from them for WM. The other companies offer no support.0 -
Well................?
Why not call WM tech support. I'll repeat, "Its the same boiler".
Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
No difference
> Forgive me but I just don't understand, what
> headache? If its $200 less and putting in the
> identical product with a different jacket is a
> problem that could of won you the job over
> AAAAAAAAA- Plumbing & Heating in the first place.
> I don't see your point. I rarely post pics but
> here are two boilers of equal outputs, one a WM
> and the other a Thermoflo. Can you tell the
> difference? The green jacket boiler allowed me to
> fill up the wifes car and mine with gas and I
> took the wife out for her birthday & bought
> flowers and still had a few dollars left over to
> buy my daughter this crazy toy she's been
> wanting.
>
> Robert O'Connor/NJ
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No difference
Just another WM product0 -
I argee
The answer is that they are all the same. If they can sell these boilers for $200 less, then drop the price of your main product line and sell your bread and butter instead of competing directly with yourself. I understand that they make money either way, but feel as though they're watering down the market0 -
I could see that
But, what's in a boiler? The heat exchanger, insulation, jacket, and controls. Everything else is up to us-how it's piped/pumped/vented. Reps usually come out to a job when you have a problem only to find ways to convince you the install was wrong (remember Entrain II?)
I will say that the brand I choose has everything to do with my dealer support, which includes warranty assistance (not opposition), and heck-with the way they treat me as a customer. I'll drive an hour out of my way to avoid doing business with certain suppliers. Everything has it's glitches at some point or another-that's why we get paid. I also appreciate the manufacturer that looks for their own defects before they become a class action.0 -
WM
I appreciate your time and experience. I too, hold fast to my beliefs and that's why I find it so hard to accept that the same boiler I have been installing and believing in for some 15 years has turned a deaf ear to a proponent of their product for the dollar. Guess that's the American way.0 -
Unless its cast iron. They make both AP and CLW.
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Wrong use of words Al!
Not "Very Cheap", but inexpensive or competitively configured and priced. They are not only manufacturing steel boilers either Al, but also have cast iron products as well. There is and will always be a market for less expensive products of quality construction. Just felt a need to clarify that a bit Al but as always, you ARE entitled to your opinion!
Glenn Stanton
Manager of Training
Burnham Hydronics
U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.0 -
Had to look twice
I thought it was the same boiler , but you played with the colors on the computer . Very nice work Bob .0 -
Extra money
The only money saved is that saved by the customer. There isn't any more money in my pocket as a result of using a different boiler. If that were true I could always bid WM's prices and install another boiler(the old bait and switch)
When I don't land a specific job that doesn't mean that I have nothing else to do. I onlt try to install what I perceive as a quality product.0 -
Anthony-
I'm right there with you-been fed the same line by sales reps through the years, "ours is better because" b.s. End of the day, most salespeople we deal with would rather be selling advertising on Madison avenue or should be selling used cars. We do our work on the front line-they prefer theirs on the back nine. We need to realize that this is our chosen profession. We live and die by our word and deed. Some of our manufacturers will close a plant here in the US and open one overseas to save thirty dollars a unit-where's their loyalty? In their CEO's pocketbook. Next time they start pulling the old "our product is superior to theirs because" pitch, imagine them trying to sell you an Edsel. They just might be trying to.0 -
boiler tin men
well ,Robert , that changes the equation completely . if the boilers are identical it is simply a marketing ploy by good ole weil- mc scam. i stopped using them in the late eighties. went with mostly burnham , slant fin & peerless for oil. occionally a pennco because the controls are on the right hand side . ideal for certain field situations although they seem o.k. i prefer the former products.0 -
Reps
Will,
I've been fortunate enough to have seen the same reps tout a product as being the best and watched them go to a competing company and hand me the same line about the new product. When I ask why they spoke down about the new employers product while still with the old one, I hear the back peddle about the REAL reason for shifting companies. " The new company's always been better, just had to say that before" Nonsense. Who's paying me today, that's the best!0 -
Perhaps
you should consider a Find a Professional ad. Then you'll get to qualify the customers rather than the other way around.Retired and loving it.0 -
Qualify
Dan,
I appreciate your advice,on so many levels, but merely wanted put this conversation out there for all of the heating pros who may not have noticed what's going on right under our noses. Is changing boiler manufactures going to change anything for me?, I think not. I am far too small to affect good old Weil McClain, but feel as though they've turned their back on me(The little guy) who tries to promote their product. Not because of a truck or jacket or some other "PRIZE" given to me because I sold their product, but because I really and honestly believe in the product and product line. Stop with the give aways and lower the price on your boiler to be more competative.0 -
Hey Anthony......
I think as some have tried to tell you you are barking up the wrong tree.... you even blew Dan off when he tried to give you some great advice......
I really think that the problem isn't with WM or the "other guys" that chose to sell the "cheaper" boilers....
The problem is with oyu and you chose to ignore that fact......
maybe it's time for you to change the way you have been doing things for the last XXXX number of years, have you considered that?????
Maybe you could give the customer the option of the WM for XXXX$ or the Williamson for XXXX$????? What would be so bad about that????? You get the sale either way... IF you can convince them that you really are the best guy for the job.
For me.... I'm waiting and waiting and waiting for the new Ultra Oil to come out and gues what I will be probably 700 or better dollars above the competition and I bet you right now that I close 90% of the sales with the highest priced boiler. It ISN'T the PRICE that matter in most cases IF you can present your reasoning clearly and with CONFIDENCE in yourself and your product.
Just for the record... I have only sold 1 gas 80% boiler since I install a gas Ultra 155 in my house to check the thing out..... I have offered to bring customers to my house to see the boiler in operation. I haven't lost but a couple of sales either and the one 80% that I did put in was for a fellow that was dead set on the least expensive option.... so I gave him what he wanted.... it's called listening to the customer..... however most everyonr else, when confronted with the FACTS of what the better boiler could do for THEM and their COMFORT and pocketbook, chose to spend the money.
If ya can't beat 'em join 'em..... figger out how to make the most of the situation. Maybe Dan's FAP isn't such a bad idea.... believe me... if it was for the fact that I have to turn away customers everday, I would have one myself......that and the FACT that IF my wife found out......welllllllllll I'd get castrated.......
Floyd0 -
ron jr.
So you like my trick photography? I wish they were the same picture. Would you belive the WM had to be a knock down as small as it is? I quoted the WM and then the guy didn't call for three months, when I arrived I noticed he was in the throws of finishing off his basement not only preventing me from using a package (he packed out the doors) but he ripped out ALL of his electric lights and outlets and put in wall to wall carpeting (light beige) in most of the basement and on the steps. The one I ripped out by the way began life using coal AAAAHHHH! I been spitting out the same install for too long and have my system down where they are all pretty much the same but thanks for noticing.
Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
How can yo pick on WM
when ECR is the biggest re-labeler. Dunkirk, Olsen, Ultimate, Utica have many of the same product plus their boilers are re-labeled under Sears, Carrier, etc. The Burnham LE is also sold by New Yorker. but I guess the whole steel boiler line is kept @ New Yorker to fill the "builder grade" perception of steel boilers.0 -
Going with the times
Floyd,
I do realize that the customer should get what they want, and have no problem with them. My main business is plumbing and heating is seasonal. I don't have enough time in the day to complete all of my work and I chose to be more selective with my options I have always stood by WM and if a customer wants to go for a lower priced alternative boiler, I say go for it, I just prefer to not promote them, therefore, I chose not to install them.
As far as disregarding Dan's advice, I don't believe that I did. I appreciate him and his wisdom, which is why I've posted this opinion of mine where pros like yourself could express yourselves on what I consider to be an issue.
I don't take anyone's words personally or get angry if you don't think like I do. I only look to all of you for your honest and professional opinions.
At the root of all of this is still my belief that WM is directly competing with themselve, and in turn,that makes them compete with me( a WM supporter).
Dan, I'm sorry if you felt slighted by my feelings, that is not my intention.
Anthony0 -
Joe
Actually, our LE and LEDV boilers and their Microtek boilers are the only steel products that are of any similarity in design. We have our RSA steel boilers which are quite different from their AP and FR boilers. We have ours and they have theirs and most are now built in another one of our sister company operations named Lancaster Metal Manufacturing. This is the same production facility where we make all of our sheet metal, stamped steel and welded steel components for our boiler companies. All the jackets, canopies and such are also made at LMM. The welders we have at that plant are second to none in this business and the quality shows!
Glenn Stanton
Manager of Training
Burnham Hydronics
U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.0 -
New Yorker
We install a New Yorker every now and then. One of our suppliers stocks them. Seems like a perfectly good boiler to me. I like the Burnham better but NYer has a good web site with all the manuals and customer service so what's the big deal? Lots of companies make things they openly sell under different name brands at different prices. Like cars for example.0 -
New Yorker
Is a division of Burnham. Steel,economically priced, comes with coil only $1100-1200 range. No bells no whistles, have sold quite a few and really haven't heard of problems. One person can get it down the stairs.
I heard a rumor that Weil Mclane is opening a Foundry in Mexico very soon and closing it's American Plant, loss of jobs, etc.. Anyone else heard this.
Rick0
This discussion has been closed.
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