CGA-CGS-Ultra

Floyd_31

Your painting with too broad a brush..... I have had Ultra's running for years in very harsh environments that would and did kill CI boilers quickly....Why are you saying that they will die sooner when the jury is still out on them??? Alot depends on how they are installed, as we have pointed out here many times. I do know that I have Ultra's that have run non-stop for over 4 years now, in low temp. farm applications.....

If it was me, the Ultra is a no brainer, and actually if you look at the installation costs, they really should'nt be that much more if your running the exhaust very far. The S/S vent of the CI boilers will soon overcome the extra piping of the Ultra, because I wouldn't run either of the CI boilers into a chimney. Unless you want it to come down.....

Floyd

Matt_46

CGA-CGS-Ultra

Hey heating guru's- I need some help making a decision on a new boiler.

I have multiple estimates-

one for Weil Mclain CGA4, Weil Mclain CGS4, And Ultra 105.

The prices for the first 2 are relatively close, but the ultra is 1200-1800 more. The heating guy is really high on the ultra, and says it is initially more costly but will recoup costs very fast. Can someone point me in the right direction...and tell me if it will make a lot bigger difference and would tell me to go ultra too...rather than the CGA-CGS boiler? Annual Maintenance cost..etc..

Uni R_3

More quotes?

Why shop from one manufacturer and only one contractor? Of the 3, the Ultra would use far less fuel, be far more comfortable (excellent controls and modulation) and probably die far sooner than the others.

Jimbo_5

Life Expextancy

What might be the life expectancy of a properly maintained Ultra-105, as compared to the CG-a or CG-I?

Uni R_3

Floyd

Floyd, even though I think the Ultra would be the shortest lived of the three it would be my choice too. Kind of like having Jimi Hendrix or Morrison heating your house. Won't shine as long but will shine far far brighter. There has to be at least a small part of you that agrees with me. At some point the computers become a costly liability. This way the manufacturers might start aiming more marketing to consumers and possibly expect more than one repeat purchase in a lifetime. I'm certainly not knocking the Ultra - I just tried unbelievably hard to buy one this fall. I'm just accepting the fact that complex things don't last as long as simple things.

Xc8p2dC_2

Homeowner with an Ultra

If your contractor is highly experianced with the Ultra and has installed and maintained many, I would say go for it, if it is your home and choose to reap the most benifits from efficiency. If a rental or turning over quickly, then the bang bangs would be cost effective

Greatly enjoying my Ultra80 thanks to the input from many here.. currently have it dialed down to 38,000 BTU input @160 deg water and still have still have over kill [Try doing that with a couple of keystrokes with a C/I boiler]

Looked at the Big 4 ModCons> Buderus, Veissman, Lockinvar, W-M>> the W-M was best value for the dollar, repuatable US company and had the features that worked best for my install as well as a great warranty.

My hopes are, as long as you put as much effort into, being piped properly, utilizing proper water chemistry [glycol, alum rated and Ph] and safely setup, combustion testing and surge protection etc, they should hold up well for many years to come... time wil tell, but by then the technology will have changed again anyway and will move on to it.>>.Good luck

Matt_47

Will the Ultra really show that much of a savings on heating as compared to a cga-CGS boiler?

Floyd

Yes.

I have had Ultra's pay for themselves in months... not years. Have two 310's running right now in a situation that is saving the cost of a boiler every month. There is no doubt in my mind that the Ultra will pay back the diff. in cost very quickly, if installed, setup, and maintained correctly.
Uni... what a bummer.....yes there is things that can go wrong with the Ultra, however to get the high eff. you have to give up the simplicity...from what I have experienced, it is well worth it.

Floyd

Uni R_3

Floyd

My own personal na

ishmael2k

CI vs ModCon

I am a homeowner and have been coming to the wall for quite awhile. I just want to put in my own experience with boilers.

6+ yrs ago I bought my current house, a 100+ year old farm house with some fairly severe problems. One thing that was not a problem (At the time) was the heating. It had been converted to hot water heat in 1962. The system installed was an AS CI boiler (Natural gas, 270k btu and about the size of an early Civic) and Slant Fin baseboard throughout the house .

For the first couple of years we had no problems with the system and the gas bills were not at all unreasonable. (Approx 1100-1200 $ per year) Starting in the 3rd year the gas bills started climbing (Increased cost of gas mainly) and I noticed that the system did not seem quite "right".

I found this site and got some good advice, changed the system from a single zone to 4 separately controlled zones and this helped a lot the following winter. But it was a band-aid fix as the boiler was on it's last legs. I noticed towards the end of that heating system that there was steam coming out of the chimney and that the fill valve needed to be left on to keep the water level correct.

So I came back here and was advised to get a pro in and have a ModCon boiler installed. I did not like the cost difference and the amount of maintenance that a ModCon seems to come with.

Also the more I researched different setups the less confidence I had in the longevity of the ModCons. (Remember the American Standard boiler I was using was over 40 yrs old and I doubt it had seen ANY maintenance in the las 20 yrs of its life.)

So I started looking for a replacement boiled and ended up buying a W-M CG4 boiler and installing it myself. I have less than $600.00 in the switchover (Boiler and added controls were found on ebay) and the new setup works better than the old.

Since installation of this boiler I have documented around a 40% decrease in gas usage. I highly doubt that a ModCon would do much (If any) better. Because of the increase in NG prices my yearly cost is just a little lower than before.


As this is the case it is unlikely that I would ever amortize the added expense of a ModCon. This is just one of the reasons I went with a CI.

Sorry about the length of the reply.....

Tony_23

Well,

That is your personal, one-time experience with what was probably a poorly running boiler replaced by a properly running boiler of the same class. Was the old one grossly oversized ?

I have installed W-M Ultras in replacement of 12-15 yr old CI boilers and usage has dropped from 40-70 %, dependant upon sizing and piping. Two of them were properly sized to start with as I was the original installer.

For $ 600 on E-Bay you were lucky. If you paid a pro and bought new it would be a different story altogether.

So really, your justification for advising people to stick with conventional CI is without merit, is it not ? I'm glad it worked out for you, it just isn't realistic.

Matt_47

Tony-

If I currently have a dinosaur of a boiler 1920's American Radiator (octopus??), and old radiators. Will they be able work with current piping and maintain efficiency, or will extensive work need to be done?

Tony_23

Define extensive

If you mean you have a coal converted boiler that is gravity circulated, you'll save fuel no matter what.
Chances are, you'll need your near-boiler piping re-done anyway. Usually my customers' see a 30-50% increase in job cost for an Ultra vs a CI. Nobody has complained about the results yet

My experiences mirror Floyd's for results. And, my money is where my mouth is, I have an Ultra in my basement.

Matt_47

What are the typical savings one sees going from ancient boiler to new ultra high efficiency?

Uni R_3

\"Depends\"

I just cut my fuel bill to less than half of what it was. A 31% savings on BTUs required (some may be due to windows, but the current readings are at 70/70 vs the old setback rate of 68/64 so that's probably a wash - the windows look better than they work). The biggest factor is natural gas here is 2/3rds the price of oil per BTU. NG fired modcon (that is 2x oversized) vs very old oil boiler with modern burner and ODR.

Bottom Line

30% fewer BTUs required for heat in this case

ALH_4

I'll double that $0

I agree with that assesment. The electronics continue to be the most difficult part of a Vitodens installation. Either something is not recognized, or programming is temporarily erratic.

However, I still would recommend a modulating condensing boiler. Because if you are really comparing apples to apples, a good cast iron boiler with the appropriate outdoor reset controls, coupled with the additional required piping to control fluid temperatures and protect the boiler, will cost very nearly what many modulating condensing boilers cost. The difference is with the mod/con you are buying more equipment, and with the cast iron boiler, you are buying more labor. The labor has no payback for you. The efficient equipment does.

Xc8p2dC_2

In my opinion

Its just not efficiency your are paying for>>.

1/The fact they do use less fuel, means they are better for the enviorment

2/Comfort features,, A> My cast iron boiler was directly under the master bedr, I could not just hear every firing, many times woke me up[I cannot hear the Ultra, just the circs,, B> output temps>> Old boiler had high water temps 185-200 and with my fintube BB 2 things happend, it frequently overshot Tstat, so the room would peak at 72 and drop to 68 creating hot then cold issues,, on top of that was the expension noises [cracking BB and piping]
with the Ultra, it stays at a perfect designed setting with no noises

3/ Adjustability [one of my favorites] With a CI, you beter be dead on accurate with your heatloss requirements and choice>>> with a MODCON, you control IT, it doesn't control YOU

so there is a lot more you are paying for than just a a speculative fuel consumption savings

ALH_4

but

"3/ Adjustability [one of my favorites] With a CI, you beter be dead on accurate with your heatloss requirements and choice>>> with a MODCON, you control IT, it doesn't control YOU "

But we can still complain that the minimum is too high. ;-)

Tony_23

See my post above

And draw your own conclusions. Estimating savings w/o seeing your current system is both impossible and irresponsible.

You need a pro to do a heatloss and quote what's right for you.

Boston

I think the math on this one is something like this....

You were spending 40% more than what a modern Cast Iron boiler would consume. A mod con like an ultra would save another 40-50%.

This is based on my experience with 2 very different houses, but one has a one year old w-m gold, the other a 3 month old ultra.

3200 sq ft old house is poorly insulated. has the gold.

4200 sq ft new house has the ultra. New house uses approximately 50% of the fuel.(Cost is actually higher than 50% dues to how gas company bills, but fuel use is 50%)

Hosues are 50 feet apart. That is my .02.

I saw it and am a beleiver. I am thinking of ripping out the w-m gold and replacing it with an ultra. Good to know I might be able to sell it on ebay!!

The gas company will rebate 800 for ultra installs in MA.