Hard error fault on Prestige Bolier

mark milazzo

Triangle Tube indicates there can be problems with this boiler in remote installations. Very brief power losses (milli seconds) can cause problems with the 2 microprocessor. There is a retro kit, EO4, that is suppose to correct the problem. Thanks to the people that responded..
Mark

mark milazzo

prestige hard error lockout

Hi
I recently purchase and had installed a Prestige 110 Solo boiler. Here is some install info:
- running on propane
- running 1 zone for heat in basement slab, 1 zone on first floor, and 1 zone for a Smart 40 hot water take (but the connector on the top of the smart heater is disconnected as it is a new contruction and the water lines are not complete)

The system is working very well and I am vey happy so far with the system except: the system has gone into hard error lockout twice. The error code is E4, which says: Power supply lost after lock out occured. Further info from the trouble shooting manual says the following: " This error will occur if power to the boiler is lost after a lockout (I assume they mean soft error) has occured. The boiler must be manually reset and the original lockout code will be lost." Note that it does not appear that I have lost power at the site.

The trouble shooting manual is located at http://www.triangletube.com/PDF/Prestige Cond_Boiler/Prestige TSG.pdf

If you hit the reset button the system goes back to function properly.
The home is not yet occupied as I am still in the contruction phase. I live in Vt and am concerned with freezing. I do have a low temp alarm set up to call my existing home to notify me when the temp drops, and I now have antifreeze in the system. So I am somewhat covered in the event the system fails.

The company I bought the system from said that maybe the voltage is fluctuating and that is the cause. They suggested that I install a UPC. I am hestiant to start trouble shooting this way.

Any ideas?

Mark

Supply House Rick

Did you call Triangle Tube?

Jim in Engineering is brilliant and possibly could provide an accurate solution...

Rick

burninben

Prestige

Need more info. Is the TT plugged in w/ a cord or is it tied right into the panel. Is there a good ground? It could be lots of things w/ that code.

mark milazzo

Ben
The boiler is tied directly into the panel, and the ground tested good.
Mark

Uni R_3

Thanks for the follow up

If it were me, I'd add a UPS as well. In fact in the PDF that you referenced they in fact say that as a recommendation for that error code.

mark milazzo

?

If you could point me to where it says in the TS manual that I should use a UPC to correct that particular error I would appreciate it. I could not find it.
m

Uni R_3

Pg. 15

E 04

This error will occur if power to the boiler is lost after a lockout has occurred. The boiler must be manually reset and the original lockout code will be lost.

• This error will also occur if the service technician tries to reset a hard lockout by turning the boiler OFF and then ON as an attempt to reset the boiler.

• Verify polarity and proper ground on incoming 120V power connections

• This error may occur in rare cases if there is power interruption, surge or “Dirty” voltage. An uninterruptible power supply may be installed on the incoming voltage to the boiler.

burninben

Good idea Uni R do you put UPS's on boilers alot?

Uni R_3

UPS

I'm a civilian... a broke one due to a new Prestige. I've given some thought to putting one on mine. The computer is the same as the Ultra, and I know that they were being strongly rec'd for the Ultras here on the Wall a few year ago.

I do wish it was a plug in. I've had to bypass the electrical junction box with a corded connection so that I could track run times with a watt meter. My voltage isn't the cleanest here but it doesn't go to any extremes.

What I'd like to know is if the Ultra Glascom S/W kit would work on the Prestige. Obviously all of the Ultra defaults would be useless but other than that I can't see why it wouldn't work.

burninben

I was just thinking in the case of outages maybe a UPS would save a boiler or 2 say if the homeownwer was gone and the power was out. The Prestige has that auto recirc to keep it from freezing but only if it has power.

Uni R_3

UPS limits...

If I'm running with direct piping I'm at almost 100 watts when heating. If I were to put on a UPS it would be so that it could go 15 minutes, not a a day or two. The typical outage here is 5 minutes... except when we had the big one 3½ years ago! ;-)

burninben

I was thinking of a UPS such as on a phone or alarm system. WE dont have a problem with dirty power here or brown outs but we do have an outage every once in awhile

soot_seeker_7

things to consider.....

it would be a lot cheaper and more reliable to just add a 50 cent electrolytic capacitor to the output of the internal dc power supply than to have to go buy & hookup a whole ups unit. oh, like a brief power interuption is something that only happens in a 'rural' area???!! what a lame excuse - come on, get a life or get another job. really, what were these designers thinking? don't they test anything anymore before just throwing it out in the field?? shame on these guys - big time!! [fact!! (-:]

ups internal batteries can & do go bad in as little as 2 years and the ups itself can also be destroyed by a power surge or just experience a regular failure of it's very own. it really doesn't ever make sense to add levels of complexity with their associated higher failure rates to the normally simple & secure power line of a heating appliance that *must* run reliably 24 hours a day. you basically just doubled your chance of failure (at least). add to that just the fact that the ups would most likely remain socketed for power from an outlet rather than the hard wired original field wiring. all of this smells real bad (no pun). probably violates national wiring code somewheres along the line as well. think about it....


ss

www.boilerbrainz.com

burninben

> it would be a lot cheaper and more reliable to

> just add a 50 cent electrolytic capacitor to the

> output of the internal dc power supply than to

> have to go buy & hookup a whole ups unit. oh,

> like a brief power interuption is something that

> only happens in a 'rural' area???!! what a lame

> excuse - come on, get a life or get another job.

> really, what were these designers thinking?

> don't they test anything anymore before just

> throwing it out in the field?? shame on these

> guys - big time!! [fact!! (-:]

>

> ups internal

> batteries can & do go bad in as little as 2 years

> and the ups itself can also be destroyed by a

> power surge or just experience a regular failure

> of it's very own. it really doesn't ever make

> sense to add levels of complexity with their

> associated higher failure rates to the normally

> simple & secure power line of a heating appliance

> that *must* run reliably 24 hours a day. you

> basically just doubled your chance of failure (at

> least). add to that just the fact that the ups

> would most likely remain socketed for power from

> an outlet rather than the hard wired original

> field wiring. all of this smells real bad (no

> pun). probably violates national wiring code

> somewheres along the line as well. think about

> it....

>

> ss

>

> www.boilerbrainz.com



LOL WOW!

burninben

LOL WOW!

Uni R_3

On the other hand...

All good points... but still wouldn't it be far easier to replace a UPS connected by plug at either end than a Honeywell MCBA controller (if you can even get one quick enough)?

I'm not sure which UPSs you've been buying, but 2 years? That seems totally misleading. I've never seen one die, although I've never seen or had one that was older than 5 to 7 years of age. Still... none died. Hard drives in servers towers - yup, never a UPS. Can't relate on that aspect.

burninben

Was just thinking out loud but we may have ruffled his feathers

Uni R_3

No no

He has valid points... I disagree with the reliability factor he is giving a UPS but he's right on the mark for spikes. Still.. browning may be more common in more than just California at some point. I really do feel that you're feeding a computer cleaner power from a UPS - computers hate change. The better way would be to put the UPS in between where the power branches off just for the computer. 14 watt load... heck it would go 3 days!

Thanks...

But then again... include the blower? Good frost protection for the boiler loop at least... and it would probably keep the whole house above the freezing mark where it's located, even without the circ (although I'd be concerned on no flow of course). If it could, then once it gets the local water heated it'll settle down to 14 watts for the computer and 20 watts for the Prestige at minimum fire 30K/19oo rpm - if only it went down to 12oo (22K) like the Ultra. This little UPS insertion will have to be phase V.

It does make it much easier to insert the WattsUp meter and take the pump(s) out of the numbers, they are known. Then you can chart when it fires and know how high it fires at a given wattage. P036 makes it really easy to do the baseline watt testing. Just set it to 100% fire and check the watts for a few seconds. Then set it back to -01. Voila... the minimum you won't have to worry about because 19oo rpm is where it'll spend most of its working life, when its on one of its ten minute on cycles.

The 10 minute pulse default option is interesting. It varies the spacing between the 10 minute firings (same as an W-M Ultra would). It spaces the gaps between the 10 minute on cycles just wide enough to keep a simple circ almost satisfied. I need a CPH t-stat when being Scottish. Only solar gain or making it more "hysterical" (then it will very slightly overshoot 6>8 ON and 6>8 OFF) will kick it out. And then only about once every 3 hours. The downside to this is that the boiler is keeping the t-stat at 68.5 most of the time and the call is for 69. I used a secondary thermometer with Min and Max functions and sat it on the t-stat to verify the temps. The 10 minute pulsing is actually a parameter setting in the computer. It has the setting to run a completely separate temperature circuit with its own reset curve and everything. They sell them in Europe. Wouldn't they kick but over here?

Anyway it'll be interesting once the domestic side of the indirect is ready. Then I'm trying out the monoflo fed and gravity released buffer tank /current electric tank.

While trying to see the lower threshold for the electric side the big obstacle is circ draw. The boiler may only be firing a third or less of the time at 19oo on a day in the mid 40s - this is all done with 10 minute pulses and the circ may have only been off 2 times for maybe 5 or 6 hours total if lucky. Very marginal - just a challenge. A stat with CPHs is now justified on the basis of testing. ;-)

That WattsUp meter is actually giving me information that many regional reps don't know. Do you actually think I give a ratzass that it is no longer hardwired? Oh yeah... I could share that outlet with Grundfos 10-16. Nice and clean...

Hey! Your ideas are costing me! ;-)

Constantin

Hmmm...

As usual, there are good points on either side. For the life of me I cannot fathom why a kitchen appliance designer decides that installing a clock into a appliance is a good idea but making it brownout and blackout resistant is a bad idea. As a result, all of us are much too good at reprogramming our ovens, microwaves, etc. when the power comes back on. A simple capacitor on a dedicated circuit (with a few diodes) would maintain the clock and nothing else.

On the other hand, I think that a UPS goes beyond a capacitor in the sense that it can protect the appliance from surges, brownouts, noise, etc. All of this has a direct impact on the life of the appliance. With the exception of the brick that Perry installed on his Vitodens, the MOVs in these UPS can and will fail without warning... yet replacing a UPS is a lot cheaper than the potential costs incurred in replacing a boiler brain (material, labor, never mind a frozen house).

On average, I have had to replace the batteries in a UPS about every two years. Once the new set comes in, the old one goes back to the OEM in a pre-paid box for recycling. Easy enough. Perhaps when/if the boiler OEMs get as geeky as the computer crowd, the boiler will gracefully shut down once the UPS signals that it's close to the end of its rope. A small USB cable does that trick. The same USB port can also then be used for software updates, tuning, etc.

burninben

Thanks Constatin, Do you install UPSs on your systems? I just think its not a bad idea. Not for everyone but i have some customers who might like the piece of mind.

Uni R_3

No Clock

There is no clock in the computer. It does however have setback contacts if you wanted to control it with a switch near the door, a building management system or any timer that could do on/off signals on a schedule.

Bottom line is, the computer going down means nothing, unless it was already having issues like the original poster had. In his case I wouldn't hesitate to get a UPS or two!

Hands up who wouldn't?

Constantin

Hi!

Please note, I'm a mere homeowner... no systems installs under my belt unless you count a diesel furnace I installed on a boat.

I did however specify the inclusion of a UPS for a home in Maine that I was allowed to collaborate with NRT on. The house in question suffers from very bad grid power (frequent outages), has a genset backup (which can be quite "dirty" power), etc.

The way we installed it was to run all system power through the UPS via a plug. That way, if the UPS needed replacement, broke, etc., the system power plug could be transferred from the UPS to the receptacle that the UPS is plugged into. Naturally, the system interrupt switch (if fitted) has to be installed "downstream" from the UPS, otherwise it'll simply continue to provide juice to the boiler until the battery goes out.

But for customers where the lights flicker a lot or the power goes out frequently, a UPS is IMO a must. Keeps the boiler happy, the house warm, etc. Sizing the units becomes problematic if they have to run a lot of pumps but even then there are some neat inverters you can consider, which could be run off standard lead-acid, deep-cycle batteries. The big caveat with lead-acid batteries is hydrogen production during charging, which usually is solved indoors by installing the batteries in sealed boxes boxes or rooms, with a well-pitched vent to the great outdoors.

soot_seeker_7

yet even more... (long)..

my feathers? or somebody else's? i'm fine here - just running out of time for typing about stuff that i wish i had the time to comment on - but i'm more of a reader than anything else...

having been in the computer / electronics field for the past 30 years basically ensured that i got to see (and still do) more than my fair share of dead equipment and really, the assortment of fried, malfunctioning, and lousy designed ups's certainly still occupy their place on the heap - and i have seen & repaired a number of them. we could talk about the dirty / noisy square wave type power that the majority of these things put out (maybe ok for computer switching type power supplies but not necessarily too good for anything else - especially any equipment sensitive to spikes); we could talk about the batteries that start to die from the moment they're manufactured & installed in these units to the point where your run time & output voltage have severely deteriorated by the end of a couple years (sure, there's supposed to be a little warning on the front that alerts you to that condition but how many people actually keep an eye on it, know what it means, and actually do anything about it (you don't want me to answer that do ya?). we could talk about the typical 'lower than line level voltage' that these units put out when switched over to batteries (you'll need a rms capable voltmeter to measure it accurately) - sure, computer power supplies (the target product for which these things are really designed) can usually function ok down to 108v but again, how many non-computer type products function happily in a brownout condition? when you call the ups manufacturer (apc, tripplite, unison, etc - doesn't matter) and tell them that your 'compusa class' $200. ups is only putting out 90% of line voltage when on battery power; guess what they're gonna tell ya. ooooh, you mean you needed good clean power on batteries? ah sir, you'd need to purchase something from our 'hospital grade' line. don't worry, they're only about $1000. more - (and that's the small ones). we could also talk about the fall off characteristics of these little units - that is, the nature of the output voltage when the batteries near depletion. do they just cut off nicely?, do they exhibit a residual power spike? does the output voltage monitoring circuit allow the unit to put out some unacceptably low voltage for a time (just to extend advertised battery run times to keep the marketing guys happy) driving the target equipment hot to the point of failure? how about the switch-over time from ac to battery (and back!)? remember the post above that said the cpu board may not handle a few ms of power interruption? what do think you happens in a (non-online) ups when the ac dies & it switches over to battery? yup, possible ms of unstable power. do you really wanna run that into your fragile microprocessor heating board?

[by the way, i'm all for the type of power-surge brick mentioned above. they've been around a long time and i believe that they have the right idea & a heavyweight product. i have a similar one on my frig for the sake of the compressor and if i had more time i'd put them on a lot of other things].

anyway, those aren't even the main reasons that i wouldn't use a ups on a heating appliance. this one is. let's assume that your ups can supply a healthy (somehow?) power source to your heating system for 10-20 minutes or whatever. ooops, suddenly your neighborhood has a power outage for say 30 minutes. well, your trusty ups came on & dutifully supplied power for that 20 minutes - really kept everything going - great! - until, ah oh, the batteries gave out. well, maybe the ups designs are improving as we speak, but i can tell you that i have several clients with relatively recent ups units that do the following (frequently happens on monday mornings when they first come in & the power has been off for a little bit of time over the weekend due to utility work in the area). sure, the ups's held the equipment up for a wonderful 30 minutes or whatever and if that equipment was tied in through a monitoring cable then the servers even did an orderly shut-down - that's all good. but on a lot of these ups's, when they go down after their 30 minutes of battery time is depleted & the power hasn't come back on BEFORE that time... guess what happens when the power does finally come back on? nothing. absolutely nothing. no power - nothing. the batteries do start charging again but these units require a front panel reset or power press to have the ac appear at the power outlets again. maybe this is the design or maybe it's a glitch. for a server, it doesn't matter. the server got it's orderly shut-down & it's happy. the operator just resets the ups front panel & turns the equipment back on. now, in the case of your heating equipment, if your ups behaves this way (do you know for sure? - does it use an electronic power switch?) then guess what? all the other heating equipment in your neighborhood came back on after 30 minutes. now, guess what yours did? nothing. no heat nothing. and you're away for a couple days & it's 20F outside. guess what your pipes are doing right now?? hello?????????????? really wanna take a chance with that?? think about it...

(-:

ss

Uni R_3

Constantin?

"On average, I have had to replace the batteries in a UPS about every two years."

I'm still finding 2 years amazing... What was the load % / expected run times you were targeting?

I always aimed for 90 minutes (low percent load) when I used to deal with servers. I never had one die, and I'd cycle them out after 5 years. Desktop ones I've had up to 7 years before trading them out. I've always just used the better APC Pro models. Maybe loads like 50% or more really shorten their lives?

soot_seeker_7

just further clarification...

please note the text of my line above:

"ups internal batteries can & do go bad in as little as 2 years"

now, that doesn't mean that all ups's die in 2 years. it also doesn't mean that this is typical. it does mean what it says: that it does happen & it is happening somewhere right now. i've had a law firm lose the batteries in a year & a half (and they didn't have bad power). the batteries (on a tripplite unit - and there's nothing wrong with tripplite equipment) actually started to deteriorate into a failure mode where they held no charge & started 'expanding' through their battery cases and then started bulging the sides of the actual ups unit outward by force. i've had an apc unit where the terminals & battery connectors oxidized and thus failed to operate. i've had a $2500. monster ups (good quality) unit made by 'best power' fail where the battery was fine but it just put out really bad power on the way down - this caused a failure(s) in the server. either way, the batteries simply do lose their capability to store and provide rated power after a period of time. it's an expected aging characteristic of all batteries. no surprises here - just a fact of life - your mileage my vary. the quality & the manufacture of the battery will also vary. ups's are now less expensive than they used to be. that usually doesn't mean that 'gee, the price has sure come down on those" as a lot of people like to say - rather, i usually tell them that the manufacturer has learned how to make the units cheaper - usually with cheaper or lesser quality parts and that usually doesn't bode well for product life expectancy. there are a slew of 'foreign' made batteries on the market now that are getting used in these units. these are not the same quality batteries that were made by panasonic & csc a short while ago - some of those batteries could go almost 4 years before they'd had it. it seems we've become much more of a 'disposable tolerate' society where the consumer is willing to forego product life longevity for a cheaper price up front - thus the frequent phase; "well hell, i only paid $xxx. for it so it doesn't owe me anything; i'll just toss it out (fill up the landfills & extend my carbon footprint) and go get me another (pos) unit." it's a viscous cycle & the manufacturers take advantage of it as they figure that the consumer has come to expect less as time goes on.

also, although it may 'seem' that the batteries in a ups are doing fine 2 years down the road, you really can't make any kind of an educated judgment call on this unless you really test it - this means putting a decent load on the unit while on battery power & measuring the voltage at the terminals & see what it's putting out. also, measure the amount of time that it keeps the load up. you may be very surprised. just like the 'down the road' testing of tape backup drives that never gets done until it's too late, the notion of testing a ups for adequate functionality falls even further down on the list of priorities - nobody worries about them until it's too late.

all this is fine & tolerable if the unit is basically powering a pc & it's getting constant supervision. the problem with these things is when they are being relied upon in a more critical application (like being in-line with the power sourcing a heating appliance). to me, that's a much more critical setting. there's a reason that the ups manufacturers include a disclaimer indicating that the a ups is not suitable for critical or life-supporting installations - they know their product. tying a ups in with the operation of your heating appliance may not always be a human 'life-support' issue but it could end up being a life-support issue for the well being your home.

(-:

ss

Constantin

The thing is...

... the UPS' (with one exception) would not die, it would be the batteries that were reported as "bad" by the UPS. Like any lead acid battery, they hate being hot (which causes the cells to short out and fail internally faster), in our residential setting, the temperatures in the summer soared for sure.

The actual usage was minimal... power is pretty good generally, though short brownouts remain an issue. I also like the APC Pro series.

It will be interesting to see if the current crop of UPS' will last longer now that they are in a controlled environment (ahhh!) and the runtimes (for the most part) are measured in hours, not minutes.

Constantin

Hee Hee...

... very good points, soot seeker. You obviously have a lot of experience in this field. FWIW, if a customer needs to have heat (and cannot reset an applicane/UPS after a failure), then the system ought to be designed around that need.

The system in ME I had a hand in has a backup generator that comes on within 30 seconds of the power going out. The actual runtime requirements for the UPS are quite low as a result. If the power were to go out under those circumstances (i.e. the propane runs out), then the heating appliance wouldn't be able to function anyway.

Systems that require a lot of "always on" power could include a couple of deep-cycle batteries with an inverter on one end and a heavy-duty charger on the other. If you choose AGM cells, there is less mess to worry about, though you cannot replace the electrolyte if they get overchraged.

If the system in ME had not had a large genset to fall back on, I would have chosen a couple of PV batteries to run the system for at least a day. Not an inexpensive solution, for sure! (which also brings us back to the old discussion about circulator efficiency, given that this is where most of the energy is going in most gas-fired, forced hydronic systems).

For new construction of gut jobs in remote locations, perhaps the extra cost of installing a gravity system would be compensated for by the much smaller battery requirements to keep the system going after the grid power goes out or to reduce the footprint of the off-grid power supply. Solar panels are still expensive, energy storage is not cheap either, etc.

mark milazzo

updated TS manual

re"point me to where it says in the TS manual that I should use a UPC to correct that particular error I would appreciate it"

Thanks for the pointer to location in the manual. It appears the trouble shooting manual was updated in the last month. The update you pointed me to was not in the manual I downloaded about a month ago..

Thanks for all the help on this...

Mark

Uni R_2

Battery Heat

I would think that the battery heat factor is much more severe running a UPS at 60% capacity than at 15% capacity. That's why I was curious as to how heavily your UPSs were loaded to have problems so quickly?

dirtdigger

Hard error fault code E 04

What is  the error coded reset procedure for a power failure after a hard lockout.. tried pushing the reset button after removing the problem

Tim McElwain

What was the problem you removed?

Did you at anytime when you discovered the E-04 shut the power off then back on?

This error will occur when you try to reset a hard lockout by turning the boiler power off then on as an attempt to rest the boiler.



Also make sure the polarity is correct and that you have a good ground.



The solution to a hard lockout is to push the reset button after the problem has been removed, is this what you did?



Do you have Prestige Condensing Water Boiler Service Technicians Troubleshooting Guide?

dirtdigger

E 04 code

Yes the power was turned off due to air in the lines, but not quick enough to stop the code. The original problem was air in the lines.  The Honeywell MCBA is actually in a Burnham new freedom  Condensing boiler FCM120.. I Have The code book but their is apparently some other sequence other than simply pressing the reset button. The boiler is new and been heating domestic water fine for about a month now but the heating loop was just first turned on and air apparently found its way it to the loop

dirtdigger

E 04 code

Yes the power was turned off due to air in the lines, but not quick enough to stop the code. The original problem was air in the lines.  The Honeywell MCBA is actually in a Burnham new freedom  Condensing boiler FCM120.. I Have The code book but their is apparently some other sequence other than simply pressing the reset button. The boiler is new and been heating domestic water fine for about a month now but the heating loop was just first turned on and air apparently found its way it to the loop

Tim McElwain

That boiler uses

a different MCBA control than the Traingle Tube. i do not have the Freedom manual handy. I will ty to get you an answer tomorrow and get back to you.

dirtdigger

reset E 04 Code

Thanks for your efforts to help.

         I solved the problem with  the help or the manufactures Representative he said, The RESET button is sensitive. I had to press a retracted tip of a ball point pen directly on the         "S"        of the "RESET" button, until I found the actual contact spot, then I heard the faint click of a small relay in the mail microprocessor then I had to hold that spot for about 30 seconds +  or  -  a few seconds then it reset to the U_.25 did a self check and from there I was OK  the boiler restarted