Vitodens 200 vs. Buderus GB 142

S Ebels

The VanEbels part of the company is currently evaluating some of the "business expenses" turned in by the "Scott" part of the establishment. Something about this case of single malt doesn't add up.......We'll have to bring it up at the next directors meeting along with the " 6-pack" of Viagra claimed as a travel expense.

PS: How did we get here from this poor guys question about boilers?

Rock Solid Restoration_3

Vitodens 200 vs. Buderus GB142

After years of careful thought and paralysis by analysis I have narrowed my boiler options down to the vitodens 200 and the Buderus GB 142.

My house is 1,600 sf framed with 2x6's at 2' o.c. and will be insulated with spray foam. I will install in floor radiant throughout.House is on Long Island.

From what I understand, the main difference (besides price) is that the Buderus uses an aluminum heat exchanger while the Veissmann uses a stainless steel hx. When I recently attended a seminar on the GB 142, they spent a few minutes telling us that an aluminum hx is better than stainless steel and that this is what the majority of heat exchangers are made of in Europe and that the percentage is growing. They also said that the GB 142 heat exchanger should be serviced once a year to clean the aluminum oxide buildup from the heat exchanger. That part I didn't like.

The smallest Vitodens goes for around $3,800, while I can get the smallest GB 142 for around $2,600.00.

Any advice would be much appreciated. I would love to hear from someone who has had experience with both.

Thanks alot!!!

Craig

[Deleted User]

Vitodens 100

Will be out soon. With SS HXer.

Little known factoid. Viessmann used to have their Vitodens 100 (available only in Europe) with an aluminum block. Key word USED to. They saw something in the AL block that did not set well with them....and they changed it to SS.

ME

Paul Pollets

The difference

$1200 is worth the difference. The internal smart pump on the Vitodens may very well be all you need, if system design flow rates are under 6gpm. With the DHW production kit and the indirect tank, it's the best of all possible worlds.

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Joe@buderus_2

There will be many pros and cons express about your question. Both are good quality boilers. Suggest to also consider what brand is the installing contractor familiar with? Is the system designed for a condensing boiler? What controls are being consider? Just ideas to help make your decision.

ALH_4

B vs. V

That must be contractor pricing. If you can get a Vitodens at that price, go for it. Aluminum is cheaper to produce and works fine. Stainless is more expensive and as you mentioned requires less maintenance as well as not being as pH sensitive. If your system is designed right, you can use the internal Vitodens pump which saves significant labor. Be sure to use extruded plates or a concrete pour for your radiant floor. Be careful of head requirements when selecting your indirect DHW tank if you don't use a Vitocell.

Ray Landry_2

Does anyone else think that prices should not be listed on this post?

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ALH_4

Agreed

I agree, particularly because they are apparently contractor prices. It would have sufficed to say the difference was $1200.

Supply House Rick

Why can't prices be discussed?

Aren't you interested in what people pay for the same materials? It could help keep your supply house honest. If somebody can get the same boiler as you for $1200 less, you need to know. Right?

Ted_9

Prices

No, I dont care what other companies pay for products.

List prices only should be discussed on this forum.

IMO


Massachusetts

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John L

it depends

on a number of things, as indicated by another poster on here, Veissmann is/has changed the HX,the level of service from supply houses differ, the sizing may differ, etc, etc.
We get beaten up enough on the street over prices, so let's have one forum where we can escape the price war for a change!!

John

Gordy

The difference

The difference may be 1200 dollars but they are not the same materials only in general (boilers). Plus prices vary over the terrian of north america.

A homeowner will be liable to shoot down a quote, because they read on this site you can get it for X dollars. while leaving the quoter shot down in flames, because he may not be able to touch one for that price in his area.

Gordy

Ragu_5

No Pricing Here...

That's the unwritten rule here, and I agree. Talk about experiences, quality of materials, controls strategies, efficiencies, reliability, manufacturer support etc., but not pricing.

Personally, I have been beat up enough about pricing over the years. Sometimes, I feel like Archie Moore fighting 12 rounds at 45 years of age.

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bordy

prices

Who cares if prices are posted. "contractor pricing" can be found on the net if you look. People are buying a total job and who cares if they know what the equipment cost.

bordy

prices

Who cares if prices are posted. "contractor pricing" can be found on the net if you look. People are buying a total job and who cares if they know what the equipment cost.

GW

price

Yes, bag the net costs please.

Here’s a thought on price complaints: Years ago I was the cheapest guy and town. Well, wouldn't you know it; I still had people chiseling me down even more! What a lame contractor I was! Now we charge good money (middle to higher) and the price chiselers don't buy from us anymore...

Nothing fires me up more than a "smart guy" who buys an expensive system and tries to figure this stuff out. Had a smart guy (he proclaimed to me he was an engineer) get bugged at me because I was "too high" for a 2107 install (we did his g124 a year or two prior). He bought the control himself, and told me in an email what he thought about me and said again that he was an engineer and he would do it himself. Boy or boy did I get a kick when I gave the manufacturer a "heads up" and to hear that he was struggling (he had already called for help) with the programming and the tech told him to get a local heating guy! It was a victory for the heating guys around the world; we "not so smart" guys get to win on occasion!

Gary Wilson


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Mad Dog_2

Not only that Ray, but I want to know why a HO is getting trade

prices and WHO is selling it to them. This is NOT the first I've heard of this AND....This is troubling. Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

Uncle Sam Cares...........................BORDY!

Mad Dog

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GW

well, i do

do you think the average ho has a clue how many thousands of dollars the average shop sends out the door in overhead costs every month? All right then, I rest my case.

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Paul Rohrs_5

Craig..

Are you buying this boiler from a contractor? A contractor who has done a heat loss and correctly sized this boiler? Are you going to install this yourself?

I would just be curious as to where you are getting contractor pricing from.

PR

S Ebels

I'll take a stab at it

Very simply put, posting prices, whatever level they may be, gives a lot of people...no....make that most people a false perception of a contractors profit. It also creates a misleading reference, in the mind of anyone who has never been in business personally, of what a job or installation "should" cost.

For example, Joe Homeowner or Fred the GC notices this post and looks up the bid he/she just received for the same equipment. That person discovers the difference in the posted cost of the boiler and the quote in front of them is......... "JUST TOO MUCH, HOW THE _____ CAN THEY CHARGE THAT WHEN THE BOILER ONLY COSTS $3300 ?????

The reality is that a good, concientious HVAC company knows what their overhead is, knows how much profit it takes to open the doors, turn on the lights, fuel up the truck, pays their employees a living wage, pay their share of taxes, licenses and permits, builds the cost for training personnel......(whew, I'm about out of breath) and a host of other business related expenses into their package price. These factors are easily and sometimes conveniently overlooked by the purchaser of a product because to them the term "cost of doing business" has no bearing on what they feel they should pay.

To the purchaser it's like this.........Hmmmm, the boiler is $3300 and Scott, Hunt, & VanEbels INC says it'll take two guys a day to change it out. Soooooo, lessee here, mmmmm 16 hours of labor...them guys problee make bout $35 an hour so that's $560 and the pipe and fittings can't cost more than $2-300 ........That only adds up to about $4,200!!!!!

WHO DO THOSE JOKERS THINK THEY'RE TRYING TO SCREW HERE, THEY WANT $6,700 FOR THE JOB!!!!.........


Meanwhile back at the ranch......Scott, Hunt & VanEbels INC are figuring things out from their end and it goes like this.

Boiler cost $3,300

Associated materials for gas pipe, venting, 110V wiring, condensate handling, low voltage wiring etc. $288

Near boiler piping and boiler trim, LWCO, PRV, expansion tank, high efficiency air scoop, fittings, valves, pipe and tube $754

Permit $150

Subtotal $4,492

Business overhead expenses as a percentage of sales $750

Direct labor costs with benefits, workers comp, payroll tax etc 16 hours @ 75/hr $1,200

Business profit $300

That's a total of $6,742 and SHaVE Inc. will round it down to $6,700 because they had cute kids.


Point is, 999 out of 1,000 people who get a quote from SHaVE Inc, don't have a clue as to what said establishment's cost of doing business really is, or, why it should be higher or lower than anyone else. All they see is the difference between $6,700 and $3,300 and think that it represents a profit for the company of $3,400. I wish it worked that way......

S Ebels

All I can say is what I know

I have many Vitodens out in the field. They have experienced NO major failures (except one totally fried by lightning) An adjustment here, a minor part there. Having seen the inside of nearly all M/C boilers on the market today (except the Buderus) I wouldn't hesitate a second to recommend the Vitodens. It's in a class by itself.

Having said that, up until a month ago we couldn't sell the Buderus in my state because it didn't have ASME approval. Therefore I have ZERO experience with the GB. As far as I'm concerned though, the jury is still out on aluminum block HX's.

Perry, a home owner, Wall lurker and engineer at a nuke plant recently went through the same process as you and decided on the Vito. His research of European websites led him to believe there are indeed issues with the AL HX's.

Just my 2 cents

Brad White_158

And THAT, folks

is why Steve won the Ebels Prize in Economics.

Well stated, Steve. And not in the least excessive.

Steve_35

You've got to be kdding with these numbers, Steve.

Direct costs of $5700 and sell the job at $6700? Overhead of less than 15% and a projected net profit of less than 4%. No wonder so many of us go under every year.

Please tell me your pricing is nowhere near this low.

Ted_9

fuuny

Funny Gary, I've had that happen to me with the R2107. It wasn't in your area though.


Massachusetts

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steve p

Why would anyone want to deal with customers who are giving you such a hard time over your job quote. I think the contactor needs to sell himself and service he offers. He should not be discusing his profit margin. If the HO is concerned about the contractors profit its time to walk.

S Ebels

Pitman

Those numbers are not real life dollars and cents. Just numbers pulled out of the air for illustration. The overhead for Scott, Hunt and VanEbels Inc is actually much higher because of having to pay for the wild living of one of the principal partners and the penchant the other party has for losing tools out of the back of the truck, both of whom shall remain unidentified

GW

hard to do

when you need the work. "Power" is walking away from the bad guy. Listen to the gut; obey it.

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Big Ed

System Design and Controls

Joe ? What design of system is ideal for a condensing boiler and why ?

You mentioned choice of controls should be consided ?

Ragu_5

Wow!!! What A Post!!!

I wholeheartedly agree with the consensus. By the way, where will the awards ceremony for the Ebels Prize In Economics be held this year?

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Rock Solid Restoration_3

My apologies. I certainly didn't mean to open up a can of worms here. I ended up getting my own post hijacked.

I'm not even sure which price it is that is supposedly so great. I can tell you that I am doing work for one of the suppliers and they gave me a discount as a professional courtesy but I don't think it is more than a couple of bucks off list.

I think no matter how you slice it, the Veissmann is going to be roughly $1,000.00 more and price is not the only factor but it is always a consideration when it comes to making a decision. That is the reason why I talked about the price. I feel that it is relevant.

I am a contractor. My personal feeling is that I couldn't care less if an owner knows what I pay for materials. All my jobs are competitively bid. As long as the owner is comfortable with your reputation and you are quoting on the same work with the same material and you are the low bid, why should the owner care what your costs are? Anyway, my apologies, I hope I didn't cause any problems for any of you.

Thank you so much to those who replied. It seems to me from what I've read that Veissmann is the top of the line. But it's up to me to decide if it's worth the extra money or not. The Vitodens 100 sounds pretty interesting, I wish somebody knew when that will be available.

Joe@buderus_2

Design

A condensing boiler can be used in many different system temperatures, but if purchasing a condensing boiler because of the desired mid to high 90's efficiency, the system must be designed to operate at condensing temperatures. Put a condensing boiler in a 180 degree supply/160 return system and the efficiency would be in the high 80's not 90's. I don't believe there was any mention of what type of system was being considered. Choose of boiler shouldn't be on price or rated efficiency if the design is not in the range of the boiler. Mentioned to consider control options such as outdoor reset.

Mark Hunt

YAH!


And what the heck have "Scott", "and" and "VanEbels" been doin' with Hunt's cut?!?!?!??!

He needs to buy some new tools!!!!

Mark H

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S Ebels

Back to the point

The Viessmann is what it is and the Buderus is what it is. Both companies market a modulating condensing boiler based on a few factors which include price point, company philosophy, target market, design protocols etc. In Buderus' case, they chose to source their HX from an existing company, Nefit IIRC, and use that technology along with doing a mind meld to their control system. Viessmann chose to design and build theirs in house for their own reasons. Best way I can put it is they did it because they can. Not saying other companies don't have the intellectual brain power and operating capitol to do the same but that's the way things stand right now.

I've heard lot's of good comments from guys here on the Wall regarding the Buderus and certainly don't want to steer you away from them. Excellent company to work and deal with. I'll also say that as far as design of the HX and burner along with the general quality of the entire unit, the Viessmann is in a class by itself.

Nick Ciasullo

You are buying technology

I rep Viessmann so I can be accused of not being impartial, although I try to be. That being said:

I have been told by someone at Viessmann that the reason they no longer uses aluminum for a heat exchanger for this reason: Flue gas condensate has a ph around 3, but by the time it dripped off the heat exchanger, the ph changed to 4.5. This means your heat exchanger is going to solution, shortening the life expectancy. An interesting note here is that Weil McLain indicates that you must use a corrosion inhibitor for the Ultra, and Buderus says you should not. Buderus does say that you must separate the system using a heat exchanger for systems using oxygen permeable pipes, e.g. floor heating systems (page 5 of their installation book). You said you were using radiant, are you using a metal oxygen barrier in your pipe such as an aluminum/PEX combination, or Onix?

The stainless vs cast aluminum is a major reason for such a price difference. Cast aluminum costs less to produce. As a side note, it is also more susseptable to shock. WM sets a 58F maximum temp differential to protect the block. I don't know if Buderus has a protection scheme for their unit. If you are using the boiler in a high and low temp application this could be an issue. Yesterday I was out on a job where the water temperature was coming back at 70F but the boiler needed to make 160F. The unit kept shutting off because of too wide a differential.

Because of the Matrix burner, the Vitodens is a very clean burning boiler - NOX at 8.9ppm, CO at 5.5ppm, roughly 1/2 to 1/3 that of other units. Very Environmentally friendly. It has also been re-rated to 95.2 AFUE - that will be published first quarter. This boiler will also adjust the blower speed if flue blockages are detected so the burner runs at maximum efficiency. I don't know about the Buderus specifically, but my understanding is that most boilers do not offer anything like this. If the mixture gets to rich, they run dirty or flame out.

Viessmann offers a condensate Neutralization kit, which protects your sewer pipe from corrosion, or killing the bacteria in the mound. Is this an option anywhere else?

Viessmann is easier to say than Buderus.

The bottom line is the Buderus boiler is a good boiler for the money, and so is Viessmann. A Kia is a good car for the money and so is a BMW. The difference is you will get rid of your car in 5 years, the boiler should still be here in 20. I say spend the extra grand or so, you will likely be in this house for a long time, and how much is $1000 financed over 30 years compared to knowing you bought the best thing you could buy.

Sales pitch over.

Mark Hunt

Uhh.........Nick


First, I think the Viessmann Vito is an amazing piece of equipment so do not take this as Vito hit.

You wrote, "Buderus does say that you must separate the system using a heat exchanger for systems using oxygen permeable pipes, e.g. floor heating systems (page 5 of their installation book). You said you were using radiant, are you using a metal oxygen barrier in your pipe such as an aluminum/PEX combination, or Onix?"

Are you saying that ONLY tubing with a "metal" oxygen barrier is approved for use with these boilers?? If that is so, then I guess Uponor, Viega and Rehau have been lying to the heating industry for some time eh'? What with all that hoopla about their NON-metal oxygen barrier tubing. What about the other system components Nick?? What effect will non-barrier tubing have on say.....that cast body pump inside the Vito?? Hmmm??? I think your slip is showing on that statement Nick.

You wrote, "This boiler will also adjust the blower speed if flue blockages are detected so the burner runs at maximum efficiency."

Flue blockages ought to shut a boiler off don't ya' think Nick? But you say the boiler will continue to run AND at MAXIMUM efficiency if the flue gets blocked. Ya' think that's a good idea Nick?

You wrote, "Viessmann offers a condensate Neutralization kit, which protects your sewer pipe from corrosion, or killing the bacteria in the mound. Is this an option anywhere else?"

And tell us Nick, how much is that little condensate neutralizer? Because any PHVAC guy worth his salt can build one for about 7 bucks. Heck Nick! I'd even paint it Viessmann orange and silver!

I appreciate the fact that you rep the Big V and as a rep you have to promote your product, but if those are the best reasons you can come up with for the Vito.......buddy.....

Your final little shot comparing a Buderus to a Kia is so unprofessional, elitist AND ignorant it amazes me that a Viessmann rep would make it. So tell us what kind of car you drive Nick? Ah forget it. I don't even care.

You forgot to mention the free coffee cups, hats and speedoes Nick! That ALWAYS gets em' right Nick?!?!?
Them dum plummers luv hats, mugz n condensate neutralizers!!! And low Nox just sends em' into a tizzy!

The Vito has, by far, more bells and whistles that come as standard equipment than any other boiler available in America. It is engineered to the MAX. As a Pro, I am amazed by the "logic" built in to the control system. I watched a Vito keep a 6500 square foot home comfy when the OD temp was 14 degrees. The Vito "decided" that 77 degree supply temp was all that was needed.(All radiant house) That should not have worked, but it did. Amazing.

Trying to sell your product by suggesting that everything else is junk went out in the 50's Nick. Or at least it should have.

I send every customer I speak to to this site. I would appreciate it if you keep your Kia vs. BMW crap to your self. Remember Nick. You may LOSE Viessmann as a line someday or move to another company that does not have it. What you say today WILL follow you wherever you go in this industry. If you have to rep Buderus someday, how will you square your "enthusiasm" for a product you used to call the "Kia" of boilers? You remind me of a rep in my area. He started off with a certain type of Pex, it was THE BEST. Dropped that line and got another line. Now IT is THE BEST and that other stuff is junk. He did the same thing with boiler lines recently. Had a big name line, raved about it. Lost the line and now they suck.

How much respect do you think I have for this guy?

HAHHAHA!

Don't bother answering.

Mark H


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Mad Dog_2

Mr Hunt is a hard act to follow....NICK

But he said it all. Mad Dog

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Nick Ciasullo

Hi Mark,

Thanks for misreading some of my comments. I am not going to get into a pissing match with you but... PEX tubing IS oxygen permeable, even with the oxygen barrier. The oxygen barrier reduces the percentage of oxygen that can travel through it, but does not eliminate it. I did not comment on the integrity of Uponor, Rehau, or any other. To my knowledge, only a metal pipe is non-oxygen permeable. As far as what happens to the impeller in the Vitodens, to my knowledge, Viessmann has not made such a statement about oxygen permeable piping. I am of the understanding that as long as it meets the DIN standard, they are okay with it.

If there is a partial blockage of the flue pipe, the boiler will attempt to overcome it by increasing the blower, and maintain maximum burn efficency. If the blockage is to great, the boiler will shut down. The point here is that the Vitodens will auto-correct for smaller issues, such as a partial blockage. I do not believe that technology is used by other manufacturers.

As far as building a condensate neutralizer goes, if you can build it and save your customer money, then go for it. The point here is that I doubt that 5% of the installers currently using condensing boilers are doing so, most likely because they were not made aware that there is a potential issue. That being said, most Vitodens go out (at least in my area) with the kit.

Maybe I shouldn't have drawn a comparison between a Kia and a BMW. It was not my intention for you to think that a Buderus is the same as a Kia, and a Viessmann is the same as a BMW. My point was that I believe a Kia is a good car for the amount of money you are spending, and a BMW is a good car for the money you are spending. I take it that you believe the Kia is junk. I don't believe this, but I am glad you pointed your feelings out here. To draw the line a little more clearly, a Buderus is a good boiler for the money you are spending (based on the beginning of the thread, it is apparently less), and a Viessmann is a good boiler for the money you are spending. It comes down to what you are willing to spend, and what features are important to you.

Perhaps the dumb plumbers go for hats and speedos. The Neutralizer can be a feature that matters, or not, depending on what you are doing with the condensate. I am not sure what relationship you are drawing to condensate and speedos, unless you dump your condensate in the pool.

Lastly, I would have been happy to represent the Buderus line. It wasn't available when I inquired. I think they have a fine product line, and I wish that more of the competition was like them. Unfortunately, I am not a big fan of the wall hung condensing unit. I would like to see them upgrade the exchanger to stainless.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify myself.

S Ebels

Flue adaptation

Here's a link to the tech sheet on what it is and what it does. There's more than meets the eye here. The article explains how a non balanced, non adaptive flue degrades the rated efficiency of any boiler under varaible conditions.

Copy and paste.

http://www.viessmann.ca/web/canada/ca_publish.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/docVitodens-Article-FlueGas/$FILE/Vitodens-Article-FlueGas.pdf

Big Ed_3

But Does it.........

.....run at that high temperature all the time ........ Or on the coldest day of the year ? With the indoor sensor does it run on lower temperatures more often or is it best using the outdoor sensor control instead on higher temperature design ??

tomKay

\"Average Homeowner\" weighs in

I'm a homeowner, whether "average" or not, well I don't know.
But I think it's an exercise in futility to try to hide your contractor pricing.
I can buy a Buderus wall-hung boiler over the Internet. That does not mean I will order one and try to install it myself. I'm willing to pay extra for a high-quality product, and I'm willing to pay a professional a fair mark-up for a high-quality installation even if he wasn't necessarily the lowest bid. Clearly itemized cost breakdowns impress me when I see a quote. An unusually low bid with no supporting details, and I figure I'm just paying less to get less.