Legionaires Disease Confirmed... (ME)

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

well

Copper piping does inhibit growth where direct contact occurs - unless there's a build-up of crud or biofilm to provide a buffer-zone.

To a microscopic bug, I imagine a layer of crud or biofilm must look like a towering big-whopper meal!

As for evolving, I don't know. When we visited Yellowstone Park a number of years ago, it was interesting to see the varied bacteria cultures (colored) that survive in hot springs. They could tell the water's temp by the color of bug that lived within the pooled water. They were, if I remember correctly, colonies that had very specific temperature ranges necessary for survival.

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Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

scald-guarding the home

Garret,

You can add an ASSE certified 1017 temperature mixing valve at the water heater's outlet and set it for 133 or higher if you add scald-guard devices at the other points of use. If you elect to install just this mix vlv, then you should set it for 120F delivery. The tank's temperature can be 140 or higher.

For bathing modules, I recommend a combination temp & press balancing ASSE 1016 certified device and there are models you can install to serve existing non-anti-scald faucets.

1016 certified scald-guard devices can be purchased with three different operating safties: T&P (bathing modules), which react well to both temp & press fluctuations; T-only, which don't "see" press changes; and P-only, which are blind to temp changes - like seasonal changes in street delivery, which can vary from 35F to 85F in municipal systems.

You're concerns about scalding & children are well founded. Each year in the US, more than 100,000 people seek medical attention for hot water scald burns. 35,000 of them are children with several dozen deaths. Infants and elderly scald four-times faster than we thick-skinned adults due to their thinner skin. At 120F, third degree scalds are still a reality, although it takes minutes instead of seconds. At 110F, that time extends to more than an hour.

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EJ hoffman

More random questions

So Dave this house where the legionella was caught had a 20 year old water heater thefore I am led to believe 20 year old copper and was told the faucets were all limed up due to the well water I assume from my experience a 20 yer old water heater and 20 year old copper are not clean as a whistle. But ME said in a post sanitizing copper riser?

Next question and keep in mind I have the utmost respect for you and try to read as much of what I can of your Posts and articles. You are a great teacher, I think I am a great student. Isn't the recirc that Watts schematic very similiar to a radiant floor system? Take out the Mixing/tempering valve throw in an injection pump you are injecting, extend your loops a little but keep that secondary pump constantly circing you now have a pasturized radiant floor.

I hope you can eradicate Legionella, I would like to be able to say I knew they guy who made that happen. So is not the best step to force our water municipalities to clean up our water they are delivering the stuff to us and people with well systems here are required to test systems anually for bacteria shouldn't they go with a different system besides just heating water. You said colonies can even grow in distall sites How about the shower riser with 120 water sitting in it ? Or the plumbing fixture that goes unused for weeks or months at a time? Flushing a toilet can aerate water vapor. I see the point of that the system lessens the risk but to what degree is it lessened for the added cost. I ask this becuase i sometimes submit for code changes to our state and to even be considered you must state the costs of the change or the savings. Example this one is harsh but is true in many ways how much does legionaires disease cost the state vs what does the watts suggested install cost total New house installs totalled 1000 houses per year x 350=35000 legionares disease cost treatment and such ? Just throwing out number maybe you could help Me and I will submit it for a code change recomendation. qNU2m9Xu

Garret

Thank you, Dave. I'll start looking into this tomorrow.

Gotta get some sleep first, then I have a new Saturday morning project...

Best,
-G

Dave Yates (PAH)

open system pasteurization fantasy

1 - I haven't seen the home, its tank, or the shower riser & can't say with any degree of certainty that any conditions exist as described. From what I've read over the course of several years, copper tubing yields a better bacterial shielding than does plastic. However, I've also read that anything shielding the bacteria from direct physical contact renders copper inert.

2 - I'm not sure what schematic you're referencing, but in my mind, there's a stark contrast between a single return loop for potable hot water that's going to be "on" 24/7/365 at pasteurization or inhibiting temps and an open radiant system with hundreds of feet of horizontal plastic.

Realistically, an open direct radiant system will not be on 24/7/365, especially during the air-conditioning season. Aside from the stagnation factor where long horizontal beds of food (biofilms and sediment) await the bugs, the temps are seldom, if ever, in the pasteurization range throughout the entire loops' length. At some point along that Btu highway, enough heat has slipped the surly bonds of the tubing, while doing what it was designed to do - heat the floors, to drop the temps right down into the ideal ranges for amplification. Can't be stopped or kept from happening.

Exercising the system is a sad joke. Actually, nothing funny about that at all. When a mechanical failure occurs, when do you think the owners will become aware of a problem? Could be a months-long stagnation and bacterial soup just waiting for an injection and direct injection pass through the tank if hot water is in use. There's not one single argument for open systems that makes sense when considering the potential risks.

3 - I can't eradicate Legionella or LD. Nothing can - outside of the physical areana we control. However, we can, as a group, exert pressure on code bodies to drop this nonsense regarding costs and get back to the original task they tackled at their inception - protecting the health of the nation. Back then, it was typhoid, dysentary, and cholera that would sweep through communities - often killing thousands within weeks in any given town USA. Water-borne diseases were the single largest threat to human health. The codes, along with improved plumbing practices, improved our standards of living with a much better prospect for living a longer life. We've become so accustomed to sanitary plumbing, that no one even gives it a second thought today. We're several generations removed from the horrors our pre-deceased ancestors faced in the late 1800's and early 1900's. The codes have lost their way, IMHO, and now represent little more than a revenue-generating stream for municipalities. Step back and take a hard look at the process and the fact that few inspectors are adequately trained to perform their duties. Many of them were simply appointed with absolutely no experience or training, yet the consumer is led to believe the PI is looking out for their best interest. While many are and do, in fact, a very good job, the PI process, as a whole, needs to be overhauled. It's a mess that was condoned by the code books as they permitted municipalities to simply appoint PI's.

Estimates vary widely regarding deaths from LD, but 10,000 deaths per year for community acquired LD in the US appears to be a conservative guess. Given that only a small percentage who contract LD actually die (for CAP, unlike nosocomial - hoaspital acquired - where the percentages are much higher because the folks there are already sick with weakened immune systems) and that the medical community does not routinely culture samples from pneumonia deaths, this has not captured the media's attention as have SARS, West Nile and the Avian Flue. However, it has captured the interest of law schools who, if my e-mails from their students are any indication, are teaching law students how to prosecute everyone along the chain of distribution - including we contractors.

LD leaves footprints, much like DNA, if the site is tested shortly following a diagnosis. As a result, if you contract LD from my home's water heater and a sample is drawn, that particular strain can be ubdeniably linked to your culture sample.

So long as costs dictate, or are given overblown consideration - via the largest lobbying force where code changes are concerned - the builders asociation - they will not change until sufficient numbers of documented deaths have occured. Until that occurs, we'll continue to bury the dead from LD and scalding while many of those who survive will suffer lifelong disabilities. What's a life worth? How much cost do we asssign to a child who has suffered third-degree burns who will de disfigured and suffer the remainder of their lives?

The reality is that most of those problems can be eliminated from being associated with potable hot water systems if our national code bodies were to adopt these common-sense solutions. When you stop to consider the costs in comparison to the total costs for a new home, they are not even a drop in a drop of a drop in the bucket.

[Deleted User]

THE BEST article on this subject...

was authored by our own Dave Yates.

http://contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=98

And if you want to read ALL of Dave excellent penmanship, go to http://contractormag.com/articles/columnist.cfm?columnistid=1

Thanks for your contributions to society Dave. I know I've learned a LOT from you over the years.

Keep up the great work.

ME

bovide_6

where is Ken?

EJ hoffman

The home

Two threads down ME answered questions about his house for me. Though I forgot to ask if I could come look at it{take my snowboard, ski, enjoy looking at ME neat boiler rooms:}}
Diagram Modern hydronic heating by Siggy Copyright 1995 Chapter 10 page 335 picture B Just take out the telestats and the floor loops and throw in the distall sites you now have a diagram of a residental recirc system that is what watts suggets to reduce legionella. Now same picture take out the temper valve make that an injection pump controll with a tekmar 356 don't exersize p2 run it 24 7 also don't have zone valves don't want to dead head a pump don't you know have a pasturized heat system?
What bothers me about th watts suggestion is 2 things. That water heater could under high demand run into temps below 120 now we have fresh water un pastuerized in a recirc system that is set up to flow to distall stites where it can sit inbranches and grow colonies especially if the bathroom is a guest room that is used once every three months. Is not the best system to force our water district to treat the water and eradicate it at the source?
PI's in our state must hold Journeyman card, and must also pass inspector test we have a state governed code and enforcement. Most are good inspectors they miss a few things some of them I miss on purpose when I know the inspector. Then I call him up and tell him what he missed keeps them on their toes. They know I do this and they do enjoy it because they know it is for both of us to sharpen our skills at what we do.

[Deleted User]

Not much to see...

Just a 30 gallon WellTrol tank, and a 30 gallon LP fired tank style water heater.

It's all winterized right now anyway. Hopefully under FEET of snow.

ME

Dave Yates (PAH)

credit where credit is due...

The great folks at Area51HVAC.com were responsible for my enlightenment. Had they not asked me to host one of their Thursday night sessions, I might never have tripped over the bacterial amplification issues. I chose to host a debate entitled "boilers vs. water heaters", which was a good choice at the time for a very lively debate(G).

While researching info on the subject, the bacterial stuff popped up - repeatedly. However, I did not bring that up that night. Like a lot of folks, I didn't want to believe it was a real issue, much less something serious. After all, I'd been installing potable hot water systems for decades and I couldn't recall any customers dropping dead. I was in the 'show me the bodies' frame of mind. A natural born skeptic, but also with an inquisitive and restless mind, I pursued the subject intently for months on end. The more research I did, the more undeniable the issues became. So, I switched gears and tried to find evidenct to the contrary. I came up dry as far as credible scientific evidence was concerned. Lots of anecdotal stuff from purveyors of open systems, however, with more than a few screw-ball claims about super-efficiency and magically free energy. No matter how hard I tried to shake off the problems, the more concrete the mounting body of evidence
became.

Then came research into scalding issues because that mushroomed into view once I contemplated the need to raise storage temps.

The folks at Watts were watching and reading the columns too and came knocking on my door to ask if we'd do the 'Scalding - Danger Lurks' video. I asked for complete control over the script with absolutely no interferrence from anyone & to my surprise, they agreed.

Now, let's move forward together & kick this beast up a notch! Time to turn up the heat.

EJ hoffman

Imagination

My imagination went a little wild figured 8000 sq feet Interesting and nifty hydronic heating with snow melt and right on a ski lift in vail and your next door neighbors are the denver bronco cheerleaders.
Did see a mention of any long term effects of the disease? Are there any? i am very happy for you that your lovely wife cared enough to get you to the doctor.

scott w.

w/mclain indirect

Just wondering, how exactly do you figure out what the temp setting is when the dial on the weil/Mc indirect w/heater just has a graduated color scale from blue, to green to red? I noticed a notch on the scale of the dial looks like a possible recomended setting by W/Mc?

I am renovating the house and haven't moved in and keep the dial setting low as only using semi hot to wash paint brushes? If any bugs in the line now do I kill them when the tank is turnedup to 140 or above?

EJ hoffman

20 minutes

it takes 20 minutes of direct contact with 140 degree water. If you are going to try to sterilize your system buy a instant read thermometer available at your local kitchen store and run 140 water through each fixture checking the temp. After you sterilize then you replumb and put in a scald guard temp valve per Dave's listing.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_3

bear in mind

that hot water flushes will kill off the free-roaming bugs, but that bugs living along the outer fringes of biofilms and sediment will survive.

Danfoss did a study a few years ago utilizing 180F flushes to find out why hot water treatments often resulted in a clean bill of health for a facility that had tested positive for Legionella Sero Group #1, utilized 180F flushing, tested OK - only to test positive (again) weeks later. Their study confirmed the suspicion that the bugs survive and recolinate.

Global Pipe (Germany) sent me a copy of a film showing Legionella SG#1 inside a potable water pipe. In one scene, the cyst of a small one-celled animal that was utilized as a nursery is teeming with LSG#1 bugs. They are crammed in like sardines & while being filmed, the cyst bursts open and the bugs are dispersed. Pretty amazing stuff to see. We included some of their footage in the Watts DVD.

[Deleted User]

Vivid imagination...

Gotta give you credit for that. It's a sleepy little burg called Heeney. They used to have an annual rite of spring up there called the Heeney Tick Festival. Proceeds helped pay for the fire station. They no longer have that festivity since 9/11...

A couple of intersting points here. I had gotten a Anti-Pneumonia shot about 60 days before I came down with LD, so it evidently does not work against LD. You only get anti-pneumonia shots about once every 5 years, and this is the first time I'd EVER gotten one.

Also, there are no known cases of inflicted people getting the disease a second time, so evidently, our bodies build enough resistance to the disease so that it can't be gotten a second time.

So, you either don't get it a second time, or you die from it and they forget to autopsy you for cause... :-)

ME

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_3

more info & articles

Check out this one on RB's site: http://www.healthyheating.com/tools/Dave Yates H20 vs Boiler.pdf

At the end, you'll find links to several other sites and articles.

Rich Kontny_3

response

> that hot water flushes will kill off the

> free-roaming bugs, but that bugs living along the

> outer fringes of biofilms and sediment will

> survive.

>

> Danfoss did a study a few years ago

> utilizing 180F flushes to find out why hot water

> treatments often resulted in a clean bill of

> health for a facility that had tested positive

> for Legionella Sero Group #1, utilized 180F

> flushing, tested OK - only to test positive

> (again) weeks later. Their study confirmed the

> suspicion that the bugs survive and

> recolinate.

>

> Global Pipe (Germany) sent me a

> copy of a film showing Legionella SG#1 inside a

> potable water pipe. In one scene, the cyst of a

> small one-celled animal that was utilized as a

> nursery is teeming with LSG#1 bugs. They are

> crammed in like sardines & while being filmed,

> the cyst bursts open and the bugs are dispersed.

> Pretty amazing stuff to see. We included some of

> their footage in the Watts DVD.

Rich Kontny_3

response

> that hot water flushes will kill off the

> free-roaming bugs, but that bugs living along the

> outer fringes of biofilms and sediment will

> survive.

>

> Danfoss did a study a few years ago

> utilizing 180F flushes to find out why hot water

> treatments often resulted in a clean bill of

> health for a facility that had tested positive

> for Legionella Sero Group #1, utilized 180F

> flushing, tested OK - only to test positive

> (again) weeks later. Their study confirmed the

> suspicion that the bugs survive and

> recolinate.

>

> Global Pipe (Germany) sent me a

> copy of a film showing Legionella SG#1 inside a

> potable water pipe. In one scene, the cyst of a

> small one-celled animal that was utilized as a

> nursery is teeming with LSG#1 bugs. They are

> crammed in like sardines & while being filmed,

> the cyst bursts open and the bugs are dispersed.

> Pretty amazing stuff to see. We included some of

> their footage in the Watts DVD.

EJ hoffman

Read that

But can't find my copy of it anymore. do remember That i had a few questions about their study and the system flush. I did not see in the study that every branch was flushed. Could not a colony be established in the cold water supply to the water heater? Heat transfer up that line could create an optimum breeding ground. and what about all lines flushed a long horizontal run to a distall site could harbor a colony and a little water hammer could dislodge the colony and wham recolinization from one site.

Dave did you see my post about 2 threads above vivid imagination.

Rich Kontny_3

Awareness

Mark,

First of all I wish you a speedy and complete recovery.You are one of the most knowledgable people in the industry and you always post very useful information.

I can think of no other thread I have ever read on this forum more meaningful than this one! At the exspense of your health you have once again brought to our attention a very real threat to the public's health!!!

This needs to be forwarded to the proper authorities in order to prevent further exposure to this deadly disease.

Thank You Mark and get well!

[Deleted User]

Thanks Rich...

Siggy told me I was going just a bit too far in my article research efforts. I assured him, and I'll assure you that I did NOT intend to get this disease on purpose. NO ONE should have to suffer that fate.

I do intend to use it as an educatinal tool, not only in the articles I write, but also in a collaberated effort to get the codes changed to address this potentially deadly issue.

Thank you for your ongoing efforts to educate as well.

ME

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Vacation Mode on hot water heaters

It seems to me that the manufacturers should get rid of this deadly feature.