Legionaires Disease Confirmed... (ME)

D107

if brought back to 140 day before return home? Need to flush all hw lines with standard mixed 120 water just to remove standing water?

Thanks,

David

[Deleted User]

2nd confirmed blood test today...

Greetings Wallies,

Went to meet my physicians assistant today after having had given blood for numerous required blood tests, one of which was legionella. She said the test confirmed without a doubt that what I had was in fact legionaires disease.

Crank them water heaters up people, it dang near killed me. If not for the persistance of my wife, I probably would NOT be here right now.

Interestingly, while in Germany, we had the opportunity to speak to numerous chief maintenance engineers of large commercial buildings, and they said they are REQUIRED to sanitize their systems monthly, and test monthly. They also have a test/maintenance system protocal for cooling towers, and pad type humidification systems are basically outlawed over there.

Why is it that our code authorities refuse to address this issue head on? Is it really the influence of the HBA, or are they really that obstinate and ignorant?

Trust me when I say you DO NOT want to catch this disease...

Play it safe out there, will ya?

ME

gerry gill

glad your okay now..

i remember it hit you hard..

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Mark Hunt

I'm pullin' for ya' Mark!


As I was driving to a job today a commercial came on the radio that was by National Grid, the areas largest utility.

It was about saving money on your fuel bill and one of these "money saving tips" was to lower the water temp on the water heater to 120 degrees. What can you say?

You take care.

Mark H



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Bob Forand

Hi Mark, this seems like one of those things we just talk about. Who would have ever thought it was real.

I have been reading about the Baxi HT just yesterday. The boiler can be set up on the domestic side to protect agaionst Legionella. It will, depending on how you set up with the Siemens controller, heat up the domestic plate to 160 degrees to kill the disease. daily, weekly, monthly, you decide upon install.

This is so weird, it was just yesterday, I was reading and wondering if this could happen.

Mark, good luck.

[Deleted User]

Thanks to everyone...

Don't get me wrong, I'm 98% recovered, and feeling better than I've felt in long time. I just wonder whats lurking around the corner for me next...

My good friend from Germany, Richard Graves of Heatmeister fame called me the day before I went to Germany to tell me he'd had a heart attack. This kid (38) is the epitomy of health. No fat foods, little alcohol, and lots of exercise. Doctors told him it was stress (read self employed hydronic heating contractor in the winter in Summit County) and they said he needed to get rid of it or it would kill him. They ended up putting a stint into a partialy collapsed artery of his heart and sent him packing the next day.

Sure made me stop and think though...

Get well soon pal, and get rid of that company and come to work for us. We'll handle the front end, you handle the back end :-) Turning and burning isn't NEARLY as stressful as the office end of things.


Stressed out in hydronicsville :-)

ME

Cosmo_3

Thanks for the update Mark

Keep fighting it.

38 huh, I am 34 and I just started feeling like I am no longer invincible this year. For the first time I passed up on playing football this past thanksgiving (yearly tradition with guys I grew up with) for fear that I hurt something and won't be able to work. I am so lucky all those years that I never puuled a hammy, or ruined a knee. No warmups, we just have a brewski or two, and start. I am slowly getting the point that I have top strech more, and think first before trying to pull boilers up steps my self anymore.

Can't wait to find out what comes next!

getting old stinks.....

As far as Legionella I was thinking, it would be cool if a manufacturer would come out with a simple control that would raise indirect temps up to 160 on a timed cycle. Something that is specifically for the purpose of sanitizing the tank, might be easier to market something like that.


Cosmo

Todd_15

Hi Mark

I'm glad your ok. I have been preaching 140deg to people, sorry to hear that it struck you. How did you know that you had come down with this? How long did it take to recover?

Heatmeister, that's the guy with the oilfired portable snowmelt trailer, right?

D107

So is it 160 or 140?

I guess you also have to take the indirect's aquastat's differential into account. If you set it at 140 with a 10 degree differential, it could be 130 deg for some time before calling for heat. So maybe 150 is better.

Or as another posting in this thread says have some kind of timer to boost it (once a week?) to 160 or so. What kind of device would that be?

Thanks,

David

T Towne

Hey Mark

What Symptoms did you have. How can you tell you might have it?

Mark Hunt

Which aquastat?


They are not all the same David.

And it takes time for the Legionella to grow. 140 makes it darn near impossible, 130 is not a "leg up" so to speak.

My tanks have a 5 degree differential, so it's either 140 or 135.

Dave Yates CHANGED the way we install DHW systems YEARS ago.

120 is a roll of the dice.

Mark H

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EJ hoffman

investigation of where

you picked this up. Just wondering if anybody else has it in your family or if it was work. Most people dont get tested the doctors usually call it pnemonia. You had to inhale so something out there needs to be sanitized

ScottMP

Two things

1) Mark, so glad to here to here your feeling better. As was said when you first brought this up, you used your own illness to alert others. Your a stand up guy Pal and we all thank you for it. I have started designing all my indirects for lower water volume and higher temperature with mixing valves. Thnaks to Dave for pushing this.

2) Stress !! or it should be STRESS ! Its a Killer guys. Work to Live, don't live to work. So many of us think that burning the midnight, early morning, Saturday/Sunday candle is the way to best provide for our familys and life style. You do nothing for your familys by getting an early exit. Work smart. Charge what you need. We deserve it. I am allready thinking of retirement and I've got another ten or fifteen years to go.

Scott

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ScottMP

Mark

what do you use for aquastats ??

I use to use the goldline because it had such a good aquastat/thermister.

Scott

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mtfallsmikey

Glad you are feeling better Mark!

I am a Chief Engineer for 2 commercial buildings, have my water heaters set for 140 deg., but code says 120 deg. at the outlet! And I have my cooling towers tested twice a year. I don't even want to think about this stuff getting into my buildings.

[Deleted User]

The symptoms...

starts out like the flu. Lack of appetite, aching joints, fever, coughing, incessant coughing. I thought I was going to get a hernia from the coughing,

Eventually feels like fire in the stomach and the lungs.

Near the end, started coughing up bloody foamy sputum.

Borderline delerium, total state of denial.

I contracted it from the water heater in my second home. We turn the water heater to pilot only when we are not there, and it keeps the tank warm, but not hot. In an effort to conserve propane, I had the tank stat set just above vacation low. Not hot enough to kill bacteria. I cranked it as high as it would go after the fact.

The bacteria doesn't attack everyone, but everyone is exposed to it. 90 % of people randomly tested accross the US had been exposed to the bacteria.

Its a function of timing. I had a head/chest cold a few weeks before I got really sick and had taken a real hot shower up there trying to kick the congestion. Breath deep...

Maintaining a tank temperature above 140 degrees F is adequate to kill the bacteria within the tank, however, it can still survive in the distribution piping system.

Total avoidance is virtually impossible. Preventive design SHOULD be manadtory throughout the WORLD.

No dead legs. Short branches off mains. Eliminate open combination space heating systems. Education.

Yes Scott, I agree, solid state set point controls. I don't care who's, just make sure you use them.

Two of the German manufactured boilers I deal with have a sanitization cycle in their on board computer controls.

Trust me when I say you do NOT want to get this disease, nor do you want your customers or loved ones to get it either. I almost died.

I am just amazed that the legal beagles have not caught wind of this in the US. THey have in the UK... It's just a matter of time before some major water heater manufacturer gets sued.

Google "legionella lawsuit". It's already begun.

ME

Wayco Wayne_2

Glad your feeling better.

> I am a Chief Engineer for 2 commercial buildings,

> have my water heaters set for 140 deg., but code

> says 120 deg. at the outlet! And I have my

> cooling towers tested twice a year. I don't even

> want to think about this stuff getting into my

> buildings.



I turned up my water temps back when you first posted. Thanks for keeping us informed

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Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

tell it like it is brother

We're tickled pink you've had an almost complete recovery. Stats indicate many who survive, do not thrive - ever again.

For those seeking knowledge, get the DVD from Wattsreg.com "Scalding - Danger Lurks", which is yours free for the asking. In it, the total system-wide approach for what's needed to hold both LD and scalding at bay is covered.

Briefly:

* min storage temp of 140F

* ASSE certified 1017, 1016 or combination 1016/1017 thermostatic temperature regulating device at the tank's outlet.

* constant circulation with either gravity or very low wattage/flow circ (like Wilo's new 1-Watt/1-GPM circ). Max temp leaving to be 133F with min at the tank's return to be 122F.

* ASSE certified 1016 scald-guard devices at all points of use where human contact will occur. Devices to be located within a minimum distance (5 to 8 feet) of the point of use outlet and set for a max of 110F.

* Point-of-use 1016 certified devices to be combination temp & press for all bathing modules. The remaining ASSE certified 1016 devices can be either temp or press balance devices. All ASSE scald-guard devices and temp mix devices must be "certified" and not simply state they are "in compliance with" ASSe regs.

* In new construction, or construction where a plumbing permit and inspection are required, the code official will be responsible to flow-test each point of use device and verify the proper delivery temperatures. This includes tank storage and system distribution temps in new construction system-wide installations. The owners must sign off to agree that the system is functioning correctly.

This inspection requirement provides protection for the consumer(s), reduces liability for the installer(s) and provides certification that the system is functioning properly.

Everyone wins! The water heater mfgrs get a liability break, the owners get peace of mind and enhanced safety for their little tykes and elderly parents, we get a free pass on liability as installers, and anyone who tampers with the settings will leave tell-tale evidence that the device has been altered from its original setting.

It's a system we're dealing with, not just the point of source - the tank. The parts are: point of source; distribution system network of piping; and points of use.

Much evidence exists to illustrate that the distribution network and points of use (often referred to as "distal sites") not only harbor the bacteria and foster growth, but once colonized, do not need to be re-seeded by the tank.

And that, my friends, is why open systems must be outlawed and condemned.



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zeke

under

Two questions come to mind on this topic:

1)What about a reverse osmosis system? You genrally have a tank of purified water at room temperature that could be fairly stagnant if not used regularly.

2) Does chlorinated municipal water protect against this bacteria?

Would much appreciate any input.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

RO & chlorine

In a word: no. RO water is very aggressive and will attack metal components - contaminating itself. Chlorine is typically 2- to 4-PPM in municipal systems. In order to kill off free-roaming Legionella bugs, its concentration needs to be 10,000 times greater, which is hazardous to humans. It does not penetrate biofilms well, which is a breeding ground and chlorine dissipates as water is heated and will attack metal components.

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bb_7

but...

Mr. Yates:

But the local utilty here in Baltimoe says to set your tank @ 120F to save money... I know, it does not, but they need to be informed of the misguided advice.

LD killed 2 in Ocean City, MD 2 years ago with the same situation. Beach house, weekend visit off season.

It's a matter of education and spreading the word. It's not getting out there like it should!

ME, I'm glad you are recovering, and hope you are 100% real soon.

bb

Dave Yates (PAH)

And that's precisely why

the National Kids Safe Campaign needs to stop advocating 120F as a "safe" temp for scalding issues and why this situation will never improve until our national code bodies get off the arses and get back to protecting the health of the nation.

CIPH got off to a great start by requiring 140F min. storage temps and a temp mix device at the tank's outlet. Unfortunately, they stopped there and ignored the distribution system and points of use. So close, yet so far to go.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Cosmo,

Your making my day, 34???? Just wait a while. I'm 53 and still going. The real aches and pains for me started at about 40. When I was 40 I never thought I'd make it another 13 years in the business. I did and so will you. You'll just learn to live with it.

Tylenol works wonders.


ED

T Towne

Are there any home testers for this?

[Deleted User]

Test Kits...

I tried to find some, to no avail. Lots of stuff avilable out of the UK, but couldn't find anything local.

In time, I'm certain there will be tho.

ME

[Deleted User]

Test Kits...

I tried to find some, to no avail. Lots of stuff avilable out of the UK, but couldn't find anything local.

In time, I'm certain there will be tho.

ME

EJ hoffman

Few Questions

brand of shower head? Type of Pipe? Age of water heater? Did you find out where the colony was? How long does your house sit unoccupied? Hard water or limed of head? Anybody else who uses this house get tested? Anyone else in the water district contract it?

Darrell

This question has been "bugging" me for years, and I've asked and usually been patted on the head for it...do the cool little end of the line cross over pumps that run DHW into the DCW line in order to provide instant hot water at a given sink contaminate the DCW line...the drinking water line? Seems like if the hotwater heater is set too low and growing bugs this would surely put them into the drinking water. Even if the tank was set high enough...doesn't this potentially load the DCW line with tepid water which will grow bugs?

It really bites that somebody has to get sick or die in order for people to listen to wisdom. I'm glad you are getting better and are putting the word out...my tank is set high...and I caution all my customers about the potential.

EJ hoffman

Dave about the recirc,

> We're tickled pink you've had an almost complete

> recovery. Stats indicate many who survive, do not

> thrive - ever again.

>

> For those seeking

> knowledge, get the DVD from Wattsreg.com

> "Scalding - Danger Lurks", which is yours free

> for the asking. In it, the total system-wide

> approach for what's needed to hold both LD and

> scalding at bay is covered.

>

> Briefly:

>

> * min

> storage temp of 140F

>

> * ASSE certified 1017,

> 1016 or combination 1016/1017 thermostatic

> temperature regulating device at the tank's

> outlet.

>

> * constant circulation with either

> gravity or very low wattage/flow circ (like

> Wilo's new 1-Watt/1-GPM circ). Max temp leaving

> to be 133F with min at the tank's return to be

> 122F.

>

> * ASSE certified 1016 scald-guard

> devices at all points of use where human contact

> will occur. Devices to be located within a

> minimum distance (5 to 8 feet) of the point of

> use outlet and set for a max of 110F.

>

> *

> Point-of-use 1016 certified devices to be

> combination temp & press for all bathing modules.

> The remaining ASSE certified 1016 devices can be

> either temp or press balance devices. All ASSE

> scald-guard devices and temp mix devices must be

> "certified" and not simply state they are "in

> compliance with" ASSe regs.

>

> * In new

> construction, or construction where a plumbing

> permit and inspection are required, the code

> official will be responsible to flow-test each

> point of use device and verify the proper

> delivery temperatures. This includes tank storage

> and system distribution temps in new construction

> system-wide installations. The owners must sign

> off to agree that the system is functioning

> correctly.

>

> This inspection requirement

> provides protection for the consumer(s), reduces

> liability for the installer(s) and provides

> certification that the system is functioning

> properly.

>

> Everyone wins! The water heater

> mfgrs get a liability break, the owners get peace

> of mind and enhanced safety for their little

> tykes and elderly parents, we get a free pass on

> liability as installers, and anyone who tampers

> with the settings will leave tell-tale evidence

> that the device has been altered from its

> original setting.

>

> It's a system we're dealing

> with, not just the point of source - the tank.

> The parts are: point of source; distribution

> system network of piping; and points of

> use.

>

> Much evidence exists to illustrate that

> the distribution network and points of use (often

> referred to as "distal sites") not only harbor

> the bacteria and foster growth, but once

> colonized, do not need to be re-seeded by the

> tank.

>

> And that, my friends, is why open

> systems must be outlawed and condemned.

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 98&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

EJ hoffman

Dave about the recirc,

Doesn't the cold water carry this into the house? If so could a colony establish itself in say a shower head riser? The water is perfect there it is trapped when not in use and the starting temp and feed are 120.

mtfallsmikey

My water treatment company does the testing

They send the sample to a lab. Try this company and see if they do residential tests.

PathCon Laboratories
270 Scientific Drive
Suite 3
Norcross, Ga. 30092
770-446-0540
Fax: 770-446-0610

Constantin

Some boiler controls have that feature...

... if you use an indirect. The boiler can be programmed to heat the indirect to 160 on every 4th cycle.

Saggs

Mark, Have you had the hwh checked for legionella? Are you pretty sure that's where it came from? Have you been in or around any large cooling systems or cooling towers? Just wondering where the focus is on origin of the problem.

[Deleted User]

Answers...

Price PFister cheapy. Doesn't hold water.

Copper (KEY) riser, natural borne germ killer.

WH 20 years old. 30 gallon tank type.

Hard water, all fixtures crusted up.

Wife showed no signs, hence no testing. Her immune system was not compromised like mine was.

Private well.

Aslo, the bacteria is omni present in the water. ALL water, hence 90% exposure rate from the CDC.

ME

[Deleted User]

Yes but....

they are in the cold water to begin with, so it doesn't really matter much. You can drink the bugs wiht no ill side effects. It's when you inhale them deeply int oyour lungs that is becomes a problem. If you snort your cold water through your nose and into your lungs, you've got a problem.

Transmission is typically through the air in the form of a mist. Think steamed up bathroom during a shower...



ME

[Deleted User]

No, no cooling tower exposure

recently.

I'm positive I know from whence it came. I unintentionally set up my own leigonella farm :-)

The thought of contracting legionaires disease never crossed my mind when I turned it down to save fuel, and I knew what the paramters were to cause its growth. I teach this stuff...

When the MD said bacterial pneumonia, it just popped into my head. All the pieces fell together.

BTW, for one of the further up posts, the WH sits in the pilot position for 4/7 of a week, idling at right around 75 to 85 degrees. Petrie dish warm...

ME

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

cold lines

Yes, the cold water inlet is the typical route. However, the colonies are normally too little in number (except for immune-compromised patients, like those with aids) to pose a significant threat. However, if a system is sterilized and an effective treatment system (like the ones I've seen at ISH-Germany that incorporate a combined ultrasonic bombardment and UV-sterilizer at the inlet), then - in theory - no additional treatment would be required.

Cold water lines present a somewhat favorable environment for the bugs, but if the temp remains below 85F, the bugs won’t enjoy ideal growth conditions. From 85F to 122F, from what I’ve read, the growth potential is only limited by the environment. Long horizontal runs of tubing, especially plastic, offer extended biofilms “nurseries”. Open systems give the bugs everything needed for ideal growth conditions – a super-amplifier IMHO. Copper lines offer some kill with direct contact, but quickly get covered with biofilms, rendering them innefective. At 140F, there is a need for 20-minutes of direct contact to kill off the free-roaming cultures.

Chlorine Dioxide, a derivative of chlorine, is a very good bactericide and it does penetrate biofilms. However, Chlorine Dioxide is relatively unstable and does not grant much of a residual affect. On the other hand, copper/silver ionization is the best and most effective treatment system available, penetrates biofilms easily and offers long-term residual bug-killing – even in dead legs.

Which brings us right back to hot water pasteurization - the one thing we all can do - right now - in our homes by turning up the storage temps and following the guidelines listed above for bather protection.

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EJ hoffman

Thinking out loud hear


>

> Copper (KEY) riser, natural borne germ

> killer.

> WH 20 years old. 30 gallon tank

> type.

>

> Hard water, all fixtures crusted

> up.

>

Copper Riser could have biofilm in it Also fixtures that are limed up will cause the water to vaporize easier smaller droplets. the tank 20 years old can it even get to 140 with all the crude in the bottom. I am glad you are on the mend A man of lesser strength would not have survived.

EJ hoffman

Copper

ME says his showerhead riser is copper "a natural born Killer". But since he has hard water couln't that be all limed up and covered in biofilm. Shouldn't you also test you're water heater output older heaters with crud in the bottom can't get to 140 or say indirects with coils all limed up might produce 120 but not 140 Being a Darwinist, could their be a potential to create a heat resistant strain if say the 140 contact is only 10 minutes.

Garret

Bottom line advice for a homeowner?

Okay, so you got my attention.. glad to hear you're mostly recovered, Mark.

I'm a homeowner, been hanging around here to get advice on my steam system...

I have an old house built in the 1920s... original galvanized pipe, tank water heater that's probably 10 years+ old, weak water pressure, etc.

With two little kids in the house, I've been unable to set the water heater temp any higher than 130, because the scalding danger is very real, especially for the 3-year old. I tried it at 140 a month or so ago, and he got surprised and lightly scalded... little kids just aren't quick enough at interpreting pain signals to get their hands out of the water. And in an old house, the hot water comes out cold for ages, so it's only hot some of the time (say after Dad's been shaving -- doh!).

If I were to raise the temp again to prevent bacterial growth, is there some device I can install on the bathroom and kitchen faucets to limit the temperature? The bath was recently remodeled, with nice Grohe fixtures... the shower is pressure-balancing, not sure about the faucet.

The kitchen is just a cheapie delta cartridge fixture, maybe 5 years old.

Alternatively, would it be better for me to install a mixing valve on the outlet of the water heater? Seems like that would leave the supply pipes vulnerable to bacterial growth...

Best,
-Garret

Lurkin' Murkin'

Hold your breath?

Makes me wonder about the wall of water urinal thread - to have your face so close to what must be bacteria contaminated rainwater - splashing or even misty???