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W-M Ultra heat exchanger leaking - FYI
Comments
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AL H-X in Germany
Last year I was in Germany to visit the manufacture of the Baunach rendeMIX. I had asked to have some installation visits. One of the houses we went to happened to be the contractors house also. In the conversation, it happend to come up that I was a Viessmann rep in the US. After H.G. Baunach translated that to the contractor, his face perked up. He went on to say the reason he now installs Viessmann only is because of the issues he has had with AL H-x. He said that SS 316Ti is the only H-X he feels will hold up over time! AL H-X had been on the market for almost 20 yrs now in Germany and do not have a good track record there. People still buy them? Even there, they have many poeple looking at first cost only. That's fine as long as they don't complain when they have to replace it!
Ted0 -
Perry, could please post the name of the surge supressor manufacturer?0 -
Putting it another way...
Superior marketing overcomes engineering medocrity every time?
Think I heard that before - somewhere.0 -
Real - long life surge protection...
I do admit that I got into a discussion with an electical engineering type on another forum when I posted this link.
His claim is that a large new MOV based surge protector will work better in the case of a single isolated very large surge. He may be right - and when we looked at the size of surge involved in his example and found it was right up their with a direct ligtning strike on the power lines running into your house.
I concur in that if your direct feed power lines to your house take a direct lightning hit - then there is not a normal surge protector on the market that will protect things - they will all fry (you would need a utility grade lightning arrestor and a good surge protector).
This engineer could not assure me as to how you knew that your new "very large" MOV based surge protector had not started to degrad by lessor surges - other than buying a new one every week or so.
So, if you want a surge protector for your electronices (and boiler) - that will last for many many years without degrading - and that eats normal surges without normal degradation - check out Brickwall.com and learn how their surge protector is different and why it works better. Of course it is not cheap to buy. Like many things - you usually get what you pay for; unless you plan on replacing your electonic store surge protector (the biggest they sell) every week or so.
www.brickwall.com
Perry0 -
In-taking, all the information
One of my first concerns, while researching my ModCon choices. was when I first learned about the air intaked systems... Living on the Coast in a salty air ,foggy envoirment [as well as next to and active sand/recycling pit] Having all of my background in Automotive technology, I could see issues arising if these systems used a "direct to fan" type combustion process.
I was quite pleased to find out [at least with the Ultra] that is was not direct, and allowed the intake air to be drawn over the HX and circulated around [and dried] before entering the fan. Made more sence [I'm would guess if it was truly important, to be direct,it would have been used by all, already]
I will speculate, that when and if, it goes to direct intake, they will put more effort into containing, the exhaust output and recycling it thru the intake process. [which in most of your Auto's/trucks is known as EGR, exhaust gas recirculation, which creates the best expelled efficiency], unlike now it is taking place now where they are concerned about keeping the exh/intk pipes separate to avoid this... Better filtration and drainage will be required as well
How does the Vito and Bud-GB's [also Alum HX's, don't see much bashing of them, eh} intake the air?0 -
The Vitodens draws air into a cabinet
The Vitoden design draws air into a cabinet that has the boiler HX and burner in approximately the middle. The cabinet cover is fairly air tight (but not desinged to be an airtight seal).
The fan is mounted on the burner assembly. Thus, any heavy particles that come in through the inlet air pipe will fall out and never get to the fan. I am sure that you would clean any of this out during the annual cleaning.
I also note that one advantage of the Vitodens cocentric vent kit is that the inlet air is slighlty warmed by the exhaust gases. The effect is more pronounced the longer the run of cocentric venting is. My vent is in the range of 12 lineal feet long (and 18 ft head loss with the elbows).
I cannot speak on how others work.
Concerning Aluminum block HX's - I have posted in numerous theads on vaious boilers at least my general concerns. A few threads have gotten a lot more specific information.
Perry
Perry0 -
General comments...
> I do admit that I got into a discussion with an
> electical engineering type on another forum when
> I posted this link.
>
> His claim is that a
> large new MOV based surge protector will work
> better in the case of a single isolated very
> large surge. He may be right - and when we
> looked at the size of surge involved in his
> example and found it was right up their with a
> direct ligtning strike on the power lines running
> into your house.
>
> I concur in that if your
> direct feed power lines to your house take a
> direct lightning hit - then there is not a normal
> surge protector on the market that will protect
> things - they will all fry (you would need a
> utility grade lightning arrestor and a good surge
> protector).
>
> This engineer could not assure me
> as to how you knew that your new "very large" MOV
> based surge protector had not started to degrad
> by lessor surges - other than buying a new one
> every week or so.
>
> So, if you want a surge
> protector for your electronices (and boiler) -
> that will last for many many years without
> degrading - and that eats normal surges without
> normal degradation - check out Brickwall.com and
> learn how their surge protector is different and
> why it works better. Of course it is not cheap
> to buy. Like many things - you usually get what
> you pay for; unless you plan on replacing your
> electonic store surge protector (the biggest they
> sell) every week or
> so.
>
> www.brickwall.com
>
> Perry
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Pondering's regarding AL HX's
Just a few ?? about AL HX's.
From my own experience with aluminum and various alloy's thereof in quite a few applications I have been hesitant to take the plunge and have stuck with the various SS Mod Con's. Of which, the Vitodens is still my boiler of choice. It doesn't seem to have any "issues" with much of anything given proper installation.
That being said, and not to disparage anyone who installs or purchases a boiler with an Aluminum HX, I think that they will do OK out in the real world. But........ The problems that I think we will see with AL block boilers are one's of commisioning and maintenance for the most part. Some design problems, such as the one in the post above are sure to surface, once the rubber meets the road so to speak. Initital water quality is going to be very important along with good filtration if installed on an old system containing lot's of iron. The interaction between the two metals will not be pretty and that brings up the second issue which is maintenance. The water quality in the system will have to be monitored on a regular basis and kept track of in order to determine if any internal degradation is occuring. Under correct conditions the AL blocks will give good life but how many times do we see those "correct conditions" out in the field?
Knowing the hestation and outright aversion the typical American consumer has toward paying someone to do a yearly checkup leads me to believe that it won't get done until there's water on the floor. At which point it will be too late and the unit has to be replaced. The other side of the coin is that while I know many of the regulars here on the Wall are up to date on required maintenance, there are a host of "techs" out there who don't know and worse yet, don't care. If the boiler fires and heats, it must be OK right? This is most definitely not going to be the case and any of the M/C boilers, especially the AL block boilers, are not your "father's boiler".0 -
air intake
so what you are saying is that you think it wise to bring that humid, salty,contaminated air across all the electrical components, gas valve, and everything else,before mixing with the gas and combusting?........hmmm that is very interesting0 -
S e
Did any one catch the point I made after speaking with the factory about not enough condensate and the relationship with a properly sized application...that is where the manufacturer indicated they were headed. As far as Al it is used literally in billions of automobiles just fine...0 -
Automobiles are
a completely different application - under completely different conditions.
You cannot compare it.
I find the most significance evidence in Europe where Aluminum block HX's have been installed for over 15 years (a few claim the oldest is about 20) - and they are generally considered a 10 year (maximum) life boiler.
Perry0 -
Chris
Vehicles that have the original radiator, with the original fliud that are 10 years old, are a very rare commodity. The fluid degrades with time and use and consumes the radiator unless it is periodically serviced with additives or changed out completely. I doubt you can find more than 10% of automobiles running with both original fluid and radiator intact at 6-7 years let alone 10. I'm not being derogatory about aluminum, it's just a fact of life that maintenance is a huge issue when it comes to serviceable life of the product. As I said before, the typical American homeowner is NOT going to be aware of this. 99.9% don't ever crack the manual on their heating equipment. The other issue is that after having sold said Homeowner on a high tech, high efficiency boiler, what contractor is going to say, "Oh, by the way, you have to let me service your boiler fluid every year or your boiler will rot."
The Catch 22 is that unless the contractor puts it in those terms to the HO, they'll likely be given the cold shoulder when it comes time to service the system. If the contractor does get adamant about the annual service for those reasons, the HO will think he's been sold a pile of junk.
Efficiency carries a price tag, it always does. Currently, high fuel costs make it feasible to recommend and use high efficiency equipment. The payback is there even considering the "extra" maintenance.
As I have said before; These are not your father's boilers.0 -
Who said
"10 year (maximum) life" Perry?
Show me the documentation.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
al hx
Heating systems just do not get serviced unless something breaks, and in most cases probably never will. That's one of the reasons I am skeptical about aluminum as a heat exchanger material.
Will we have an update to this particular situation soon?0 -
probably not anytime soon. From past experience with W-M, we will have a period of 3-6 months of hoop-jumping before anything happens.0 -
Here's the Evidence... & the shoe is now on your foot Mark.
Mark:
What counts for good documentation? All I can offer is good evidence.
But I will be upfront that I feel that it is your responsibility to show good evidence to the contraray - i.e.; that Alumimun block HX's tend to last longer than 10 years if you are going to challange my contention.
On December 22 I posted above in this tread two consecutive postings:
1) Thoughts from an Engineering and Marketing Perspective:
2) Some European References:
For evidence I ask that you review those postings - and go to the links I have provided. No need to repost them here.
In addition I was also able to recover another European site concerning Aluminum block boilers for this posting because I had months ago emailed how to find it to another interested party.
www.geosolar.co.uk/boiler.htm
Most of the way down the page the section labled: "Background to Condensing Boilers"
So, my evidence is from these European sites, and what I believe are at least 25 more similar vednor or boiler forum sites that I found in Europe that were readable in, or translatable to, english. As I stated above; I did not keep a list of all the sites visited. Also, as stated above - I did not find a single site that claimed that Aluminum block boilers lasted long. Most every European site that I found who even mentioned Aluminum block boilers - from many differnt companies and installers - had the same basic story. Aluminum block boilers don't last 10 years; and many fail a lot faster than that.
You are free to reconstruct the searches I used - and find all of those sites yourself. I have posted here every one of them that I can find without spending many hours reconstructing the search.
From an Engineering perspective there are two corrosion issues involved here (which are not the only engineering issues):
Corrosion Issue 1) Galvanic problems with other materials in the heating circuit. This may be overcomable with plastic piping (pex) and carefull selection of metallic materials (Aluminum radiators?); or by the use of chemical treatments - which have to be routinely maintained.
Corrosion Issue 2) The flue gas condensation will eat up Aluminum. The Manufacturers then design these HXs to be thicker to provide material for corrosion (a corrosion allowance).
Personally, I would be really interested in learning what their design life is for these HXs (example: A typical lawn mower engine in the 1980s had a design life of 15 - 20 hours; and properly maintained they could last twice that - or a couple mowing seasons).
So, it is known that these HXs will fail up front due to corrosion (even if you keep the inner fluid properely treated). It is only a matter of time; and the timeframe is sufficiently short that the Mfr's design in extra material to corrode away - and they still by all reports don't last 10 years.
So there is my eveidence - and why I state 10 years maximum.
What evidence can you provide to indicate that these boiler HXs will last longer.
Perry
0 -
Bad link
www.dooyoo.co.uk/archive-house-garden/keston-celsius-25-modulating-domestic-condensing-boiler/433028/
Could you re-post please?
BTW, I have not "challenged" you, so lighten up. I asked you for documentation. Perhaps I should have been clearer. I meant documentation of actual field studies. In a thread this long, I tend to skip over a few posts and just land where I land. I skipped the post you mentioned, Dec. 22.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Repost of link.
Here it is with the "http:" as just copied off of my browser.
http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/archive-house-garden/keston-celsius-25-modulating-domestic-condensing-boiler/433028/
I note that I have never seen any formal studies of the lives of any type of boilers.
Perry0 -
I love
the idea of the 17 minute air purging start up time. Any one listening?
Leo G0 -
Aluminum
I think that you should be careful how wide a brush you paint with.The article boasts how wise the manufacturer was to choose stainless over aluminum, they are so wise they give it a 5 year warranty
.Yet the pitiful aluminum heat exchanger I use has a 15 year and beyond warranty with no problems with steel piping or cast iron rads.You know what? There are probably some bad aluminum hx designs out there but you know, there are some bad stainless designs also,does this mean that contractors should stay away from vito's.
Sticken'with GB's
Dobber0 -
Mark, This is what I got from the link.
An installers view
by MrHeating - written on 07.02.04 - Rating: (4 of 5 possible stars)
Advantages Boiler is well made, Flue options are amazing, Very good customer support
Disadvantages A little more pricey than most boilers, Condensing boilers are spurned by ill-informed plumbers, Slightly noisy when starting up
I have installed 4 of the Celsius 25 boilers and I now specify them on every job I am asked to quote for. You can see some real life installation examples in the reference section on my website. The Celsius 25 is a great choice for users who want a reliable compact boiler yet don?t need all the gadgets of a higher priced unit.
The Celsius is the Keston entry-level boiler and does not intend to compete directly against the mass-market boilers. Indeed on close internal inspection you can see the boiler has been made to a specification rather than built down to a price. The cost to the customer is about an extra 300 pounds. Over the period of its lifetime you are looking at a few extra pounds a month.
Keston have wisely chosen stainless steel as the material for the boiler heat exchanger. I always advise customers to insist on this material when choosing a condensing boiler. Aluminium heat exchangers have a tendency to rot away with time and leave a slimy mess for the service engineer. Keston guarantee the heat exchanger for five years.
Installation is made extremely easy by their flexible flue system. Obviously the boiler must be installed by a CORGI engineer but the flue pipe can be fitted in many ways to overcome awkward obstacles within a house. You don?t have this option on many other boilers and indeed sometimes the Celsius 25 is the only boiler on the market that can be installed!
The boiler itself is very straightforward to install and commission. Please note, the engineer performing the installation will require a ?combustion analyzer? to ensure correct operation of the boiler. I read the spot efficiency to be 92% during commissioning, however if the system is correctly designed the efficiency should peak at about 97%.
The support given by Keston should not be overlooked. They promptly answer the telephone and provide all the necessary answers quickly and efficiently. I think this is extremely important when consi
dering a boiler.
As I?ve previously mentioned the boiler is well made. One thing to be aware of is that isn?t completely silent when starting up. It makes a ?whooshing? noise on startup which sounds a bit like a jet plane taking off! Its no more noisy than a kettle on the boil. For this reason it is best sited in a utility room or kitchen away from any bedrooms. That said, it could be boxed into a cupboard with sound insulation ( within guidelines) to reduce this noise. The customer actually said he didn?t mind the noise as it sounded quite impressive and was a great talking point!
Boiler was installed by Martyn Pollard. CORGI registration 202421. website http://www.geosolar.co.uk
Summary:
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Ken
Is that what the link took you to? Did you copy and paste that??
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Mark Hunt
That is the site I got and Ken Posted.0 -
Really?
> That is the site I got and Ken Posted.
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Really?
> That is the site I got and Ken Posted.
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Dobber: Actual boiler install - or just warrantee language?
I would not ever expect a warrantee to have anything to do with how long a product is really susposed to last. You need to study the fine print. Plenty of history of warrantees not covering things and/or proving to be plain worthless (how many people collected on their "lifetime" siding and window warrantees...).
Now: Are you claiming that you have an installed Aluminum HX that is 15 years old that was installed on a system with steel piping and cast iron radiators - and that you have had no problems. If so I'd like to here more about it because you would be the first one I've heard of.
Or are you stating you have a boiler with a warrantee that will cover the replacement of the boiler if the Aluminum HX fails in 15 years. If so, I'd like to know who is really doing this (and please state the excusions in the warrantee). The warrantees I read when studying this issue generally have so many exclusions and deductions to as be vertually worthless after at most a few years (I will admit the Ultra has a potentially reasonable warrantee for I think 5 years).
Perry0 -
non condensing
Perry,
the 15 year old aluminum boiler he is refering to is probably a non condensing unit and due to many failures the units are no longer manufactured. In fact they were only available for a few years.
wheels0 -
Heat Exchanger Leak
I do not normally respond to messages on the Wall but someone pointed this question out to me and I thought I would help with an answer.
If you have not received an answer from your local rep, please call the Weil-McLain Mid-Atlantic, NJ office at 865-866-7400 and ask for Mike Kaiser, What you have is a defect in the casting that occurred at the foundry this is a rare occurrence. You have a Five Year Parts and Labor with the Ultra Gas Boiler to cover you and your customer.
Thank you,
Michael J. Kaiser, Sr.
Training & Technical Manager
MID-ATLANTIC SALES OFFICE
17000 Commerce Parkway, Suite B
Mt. Laurel, NJ 08054
(856) 866-7400 FAX: (856) 866-8828
0 -
News?
I may have missed a followup thread, but just thought I would ask....
Any word from Weil McLain on this failure?0 -
In case you missed it
Post in this thread, dated 1/8/07 from WM rep0 -
Warranty
Just thought maybe there was an official response once WM had seen the HX in person. I guess it must have been a rare manufacturing defect.0 -
Foundrys are horrible places,...
Sand casting foundrys are horrible places to work, you are timed in a hot, stinky hazadous work location, and frequently outsourced to other countries with relaxed epa laws. Then the sand gets tamped into place by hand or these pounding tools. A defect is just a question of time. Some manufacturers x-ray their molds before the pour. But I would view any proported statments by the factory with scepticizm as WM has strict who can speak on issues and who can't, did anyone actually call? Cause the info i get says they are working on increasing the amount of condensate to flush the boiler out so to speak? Including the ditto in the new manual about frequent visual inspections,...but on the other hand their service and parts replacment is simply phenomonal compared with say HTP who consistantly blames the installer as a company policy. More than once WM has sent at their expense replacment parts overnight before anyone completly knows what is going on...they have consistantly gone the extra mile time and time again. The problems with the first high temp poly pvc vent material by replacing it with the alc ss no questions asked! As an example.0 -
Glad you asked
Andrew,
Found the other two boilers are having the same problem. They have much different serial #'s and were made at different times.
I'm satisfied there is an issue with the job and not per se the boilers. I have lots more Ultras in place with nary a problem like this. The rep and I visited the site and don't really see anything that stands out. We did take water samples of the condensate and they are being analyzed.
The venting looks OK, gas piping, water piping, the mechanical room air didn't seem contaminated--nothing really stood out in the room as far as chlorides, etc.
If you look closely at pic p2210300 you can see the right hand side of the heat exchanger hose nipple eaten away. Pic 2210304 show the aluminum in the condensate drain tube trap. (it was is so full of aluminum it was thick).
The official verdict from W-M so far is......we don't know yet. I will keep you informed.0 -
Gee, that Hulk Hogan sure has fallen on hard times - he used to get such nice trophies to hold up over his head o}:D0
This discussion has been closed.
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