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W-M Ultra heat exchanger leaking - FYI
Comments
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Looks like a list of normal things in a houshold...
Why would I, as a consumer, and you as an installer not expect a boiler to be designed to handle the normal things in a home environment?
You are absolutely correct that some of these things can attack certain metals in "interesting" ways. One of the things that makes my power plant engineering job interesting is that we are always analyzing component failures to figure out why. Unsuspecting chemicals are indeed an issue at times. Other times its just something normal in the environment that took 20 or more years to affect a component (and often we just replace things with the same material in that case).
The key for a design engineer is to chose the metal alloy and heat treatment of the metal needed to ensure that a device is not affected for its design life by items or contaminants that it would normally be exposed to.
I would expect that any boiler should be able to handle a normal exposure to the normal concentration of these products in a home. I would not expect a boiler to handle someone poring liquid bleach on a HX.
Everything, and others household/office things, on your list are normal things used in normal ways - and not abnormal things in normal usage.
Perry
Perry0 -
Andrew:
Only if the contamination was of an abnormal exposure.
See my reply to your list of contamination items above.
Perry0 -
Heat Exchager tubing is coated for some applications
Large industrial heat exchangers - for some applications - have coated tubes. It's cheaper in some cases than using some of the exoctic materials.
Of course, it does not help heat transfer; but not a problem if you design for it (i.e.; the HX is larger than it would be without the coating).
Perry0 -
Coatings
They would be utilized in the condensate areas as did the Co-Ray-Vac..0 -
Chemicals
Most of these chemicals are only problematic if vapor or dust contaminates the combustion air.0 -
remember the chevy vega
Remember the Chevy Vega cars? They were very short lived due to aluminum engine blocks..... But they were forthcoming of the re engineered enigines that we are using nowdays. Glad I'm the the first kid on the block to use the mod/con boilers as I'm still skeptical of installing these in my customers home... Sure, saving engery, but saving money and gettin "free" headaches for the problems that they having ?... Stills too early....0 -
Excuse me Chris.... but did you know...
that most manufacturers require an ANNUAL inspection on ALL of their boilers? So, your and other peoples speeches about increased maintenance costs do NOT hold water. The fact that it doesn't get done annually is not an excuse. And if you ever have any warranty issues, I guarantee you that that question WILL be asked, and if truly answered, you will have no warranty. Read the manual/
As for time spent performing a fire side tear down and clean up, I'd rather be doing it on a mod con which is MEANT to be serviced, than any of the other units which are NOT conducive to annual tear down and clean up.
Get used to it my friend. If you and others want to stand back, complaining about this "new technology", then so be it. But don't EVEN think about throwing things like required annual maintenance up as a red flag, because you're SUPPOSED to be doing it with lesser efficiency products as well.
Using your preferred product, heres a link to their maintenance manuals.
http://www.weil-mclain.com/FTP/CGi_Manuals/CGi_Boiler_Manual.pdf
http://www.weil-mclain.com/FTP/EG-EGH/EG_EGH_BoilerManual.pdf
The additional cost is not always required to be returned on investment. Some people do this because it is the "RIGHT thing" to do. And from my environmental perspective, it IS the right thing to do.
You are entitled to your perspective, and you have every right to state your perspective. Please just don't try to justify it wrongfully.
Now, while you go back to your field full of fire breathing dragons, I've got some ultra high efficiency sheep that need sheared:-)
Merry Christmas
ME0 -
Exactly
On an appliance that is truly sealed combustion, these things should have no effect whatsoever in the interior of the HX. Obviously, from the pictures, the cause of this corrosion is internal to the boiler.0 -
Why
Why is it that we as American consumers think that boilers are going to last 25 to 50 years? Does any car or appliance last as long as they used to? And why aren't we saying, "hey, your heating system is good for 15 years and by then you will be looking to something more environmentally friendly". And why do we as Americans have to make the decision to by something based on return on investment, and not on what is good for the planet we all share?
I'm just asking the questions.
Massachusetts
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Ted
For the same reason we buy shirts on sale and then never wear them. We don't understand true value. The value of the heating system is that it safely keeps your home comfortable. We have no easy measurements for comfort or safety so we compare AFUE, cost and all of these other silly things.0 -
Because
They once did. And now that it is new and improved, well use your imagination..0 -
Doesn't a well-sealed combustion chamber with outside combustion air address that problem in most residential situations?
I have though heard of "tightening up" some mod-cons to reduce inside air coming into to supposedly "sealed" combustion units.0 -
Yup...
Cars last a lot longer with more miles driven than they used to.
In the 70's you were luck to get 100,000 miles on any vehicle without major rebuilds. Some vehicles didn't make it 50,000 miles without major problems. Others rusted out in about 3 years - even if the mechanicals were good.
Today, if you can't get 100,000 miles before major work it's considered a "dog" - and I have personally run several vehicles on the order of 200,000 miles or more without much (if any) major work (and I purchased those vehicles used - and then added my quarter million miles).
Remember the lessons of the Detroit automakers. Foreign cars (primarily Japanese) were more reliable with less problems - and people started buying them dispite their "premium" price.
As to why us consumers expect a boiler to last a long time: Well that is what the old ones lasted. Automobiles - and their electronics now typically last 15+ years. Why would we not expect a boiler in a protected enviroment to last as long - considering that we are paying on the order of the cost of a car for them when we install them (be it a small car - or something more delux).
Why should we pay all that money for boilers with expected lives of 10 years or less?
I do note that no one came to me and said that their mod/con boiler would last 15 years. But I had several vendors tell me that their old style natural draft cast iron boilers would likely run 20 years without incident - and if something did go wrong a new control box or standard burner parts that they always carried would fix it.
If I'm paying more for a boiler - why would I not expect it to last a long time?
Perry
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Perry
I had just started to word a topic on that very thought.
As I looked at one service vehicle that just hit 325,000 with no major issues other than lotsa fuel and tires..0 -
Overlooking the obvious?
> I had just started to word a topic on that very
> thought. As I looked at one service vehicle that
> just hit 325,000 with no major issues other than
> lotsa fuel and tires..
0 -
Overlooking the obvious?
> I had just started to word a topic on that very
> thought. As I looked at one service vehicle that
> just hit 325,000 with no major issues other than
> lotsa fuel and tires..
0 -
Overlooking the obvious?
> I had just started to word a topic on that very
> thought. As I looked at one service vehicle that
> just hit 325,000 with no major issues other than
> lotsa fuel and tires..
0 -
Overlooking the obvious?
> I had just started to word a topic on that very
> thought. As I looked at one service vehicle that
> just hit 325,000 with no major issues other than
> lotsa fuel and tires..
0 -
Overlooking the obvious?
> I had just started to word a topic on that very
> thought. As I looked at one service vehicle that
> just hit 325,000 with no major issues other than
> lotsa fuel and tires..
0 -
Overlooking the obvious?
> I had just started to word a topic on that very
> thought. As I looked at one service vehicle that
> just hit 325,000 with no major issues other than
> lotsa fuel and tires..
0 -
Overlooking the obvious?
Why hasn't the question been asked about backup>>> is it feasible that three boilers feeding one condensate line/drain may be too much flow and cause the level to raise above the internal trap? into the HX
Given I am also a Ultra owner, I would have to wonder, since these have been around since 2003? why haven't more failed????? maybe first generation Vs 2nd and improvenments have been made? Hopefull they have0 -
Other Appliances:
Glad you are doing so well on your vehicles Subcooler. What brand and model may I ask.
I've been thinking about the other appliances:
1) My TV is 16 years old and running strong - without ever needing any maintenance. The previous one didn't last 10 - and needed maintenance every several years.
2) I do remember a Refriderator that failed once in a rental place - about 20 years ago. The existing refriderator came with the house - and I believe is about 10 years old. I expect it to last a long time.
3) I have a series of tape players, VCR's, radios, CD players, DVD players of varying ages. None of them have failed.
4) I have never seen a stove fail in my entire life. I do remember an electric burner needing replacement once.
5) I have a window Air conditioner - it is only 5 years old - but running strong. Who knows how long it will last.
6) I do admit that I have seen a cheap (bottom of the market) microwave fail after 8 years; yet my brother has a much nicer model (top of the line 12 years ago that I gave them for Xmass) that is running strong.
I am surprised about your comments on not expecting appliances to last. I think most do last a long time.
More realistically, things get replaced due to "redecorating" and not loss of function. I believe that the average kitchen redocoration is in the range of 20 - 25 years old. Admitedly some people do it every 10 years - but they are the rare ones.
I do not have a "designer" boiler that I will want to replace for redecorating - and cannot immagine doing so. Neither do most people.
Why would we not expect our boiler "appliance" to last like most other appliances?
Perry0 -
3 more observations
There was a topic a couple of weeks ago about the PVC issues, I believe some of the posts or reports had to do with when operating outside or upwards of it's limits, meaning could potentially deteriate near the 200deg vent temps and this and most Modcons don't run up that high, not sure is it's really the issue? but always good to know
Above I mentioned, condensate flow.... Since I own an Ultra I took some measurements... My 80 is on 4" blocks,,,, from the floor to the bottom of the horizontal part of the condensate tee is 11.5"... Using a level, this is the same exact height of the bottom of the HX casting where the condy plastic fitting is... BUT, if there was ever a situation where the line was restricked/blocked or maybe improper piping like a condy pump up, it would cause the condensate level to rise inside of the HX>>> to the top of the tee is 13".. this would put about 1/2"+ condensate pooling in the bottom of the HX, where the pics showed it failed..[on a sad note, when mine was installed, they took an extra 6" piece of PVC and stuck it in the top of the Tee and if my line was blocked and water finds it's own level.. well just glad I found it thanks to this thread]
Anyhoo, brought me to another view,, the boiler being level.
Using a level on the base of the boiler with the cover off, the base is perfectly level front to rear... with the base being level and putting the level on the bottom of the HX, there is a pitch downward to twards the condy nipple.... NOW, using the level on the back part of the case, it is not 100% plumb and looks like you would want to lean it back twards the wall more... doing this would possibly take away from the pitch from the bottom of the HX to the nipple. causing condste to pool at the back side of the HX where it looks like it failed in the PICS
Not saying any of this is the original posters problems, just could see how an improper install could cause issues or maybe void warranty
Sorry for the long post>>>> Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays0 -
I am glad I went with a Munchkin over the WM ultra.0 -
Product Design
This link will take you to an excellent article Human factors: A vital component in product development and launch The content is related to the medical profession but the reader is encouraged to apply the lessons and analogies to the HVAC profession (which as many of you know I believe is part of the same team).
These other resources address the comments on measuring thermal comfort or lack there of in housing.
Measuring and Specifying Thermal Comfort in Automobiles and Thermal Manikins Used in Comfort Research
With regards to appliances and other consumer products, Dr. Sidney Harman from famed Harman International says it best - Lexus sells its cars as containers for our sound systems. Its marvelous. The industry can also learn a lot from his deep understanding of consumer products We define infotainment, as the art and science of reducing a set of complex functions to a simple, single integrated solution.
My beach activity this holiday is reviewing for HPAC Magazine the second edition of the ASHRAE GreenGuide, The Design, Construction, and Operation of Sustainable Buildings. Great reading so far on integrated systems, carbon footprints and product life...
Enjoy the above pages and article
Best of the season to all.0 -
Perry
I wanted us to think of the fact that we as Americans are more concerned about having inexpensive products, than we care about our environment.
BTW, really, how many appliances or products last more than 10 years? And how many of us want to keep these things longer than ten years? You perry seem to have this exceptional luck with the things you own. Nothing seems to break.
Do you remember how long your parents refrigerator lasted? I thing my parents had one for 25 years. Do you think that new frig at Sears will last that long? Should you be still running an energy hogging appliance when there are more efficient ones available?
And how many 15 or 20 year old cars do you see on the road? So what if most people drive over 100,000 miles or 250,000 miles. More of us have to commute more and we drive more. That doesn't mean the car will be in existence longer.
Why should we be selling equipment that will last 25 to 50 years knowing that by that time we should be evolving into something else. Condensing, solar, nuclear etc. etc.
Seriously Perry, how can you say that, living in a disposable society?
Let's look toward our childrens future.
Massachusetts
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Change the world!
And what makes you think the M brand is any better? The rev one version clearly states they need "condensate filters for the condensate!" And they "do not need yearly cleaning," yes folks, the manual from the manufacturer clearly left that point out as well as the reps when we purchased a boat load of them. The early ones, the munchkins with the fan failures. No surprise now that it's included in the latest print version, so that WE can be blamed because of failures! Somehow everything comes back to the installation...Anyone remember the 74 ford Pinto? (Or whatever.) The manufacturer clearly had maintenance in mind when the procedure calls for just tilt the engine 60 degrees after removing the engine mounts to gain access to the spark plugs. I wonder how many salesmen told potential customers that one! Someone remind me to "just swing open the access door" to my ultra for its yearly cleaning.
On another note, my phone calls, it seems firstly, they insert "don't quote me," PVC doesn¡¦t cause corrosion. But CO2 does! SS isn't the problem either. But not cycling enough might be! Pure water, here starts a war, isn't very corrosive, pure water is produced as the by product of combustion and is present in large quantities in the water vapor in any mod-cons exhaust. The other products are CO2 which has a strong affinity for pure water and readily turns into a low ph substance, which readily then grabs ions from soluble Al. Or Au if we get really technical, yes...Gold...not going into my pockets however, because if we take the high road and are willing to pay anything to save energy, we are making others rich...or perhaps we should all move to a collectivist European country, but here in the USA we pay a standing army to ensure a free supply of cheap gas...oh sorry wrong thread...
The CO2 condensate is greatest upon startup and dilutes as more condensate is produced! In other words more frequent cycles more condensate of varying ph, more water down the drain... less corrosion, they are looking into it and consider it a serious problem. Cool water purge cycles were mentioned to create cleaner condensate but then I got my ear full about costs. Again and already mentioned by more knowledgeable others, proper sizing? (Back to the installer) Personally I am going to support my president, kill a few owls for my house, and heat the heck out of cast iron, (because it will run trouble free for the next fifty years), and my big chimney, thus putting the dew point into outer space, pay more for gas because I can, I love my SUV, and let the poor people worry about paying their bills because obviously they don¡¦t work as hard as I do. Uh oh, there I go again.
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Another point
Take the frig for an example of why to use the best possible technology to heat your home with. I had a perfectly good running 22 cu ft Whirlpool that was 14 years old. No trouble at all with it as far as keeping things cold and frozen. Ran great, and it still is at the age of 18. (I was just in the house of the people I gave it to) The thing will probably run another 5-10 years yet, but at what cost?
When I bought a new one, same size and type, I went for the most efficient one I could find and kept track of my electric bill for the next year. On average, it dropped $13.30 per month or about $160 per year. Maybe the new frig won't last as long as the old one, who knows. The point is that there are other things to consider besides first cost and how long it will last. Conserving energy should be a major concern to all of us.0 -
But Steve
don't forget to factor in the "original" energy needs to produce the new fridge. Bellowing deisal machinery in the mining, consumption in the refining, transportation, manufacturing, and perhaps the biggest, disposal! I have read that with all the "mini-computers", especially in cell phones (which are the most disposable product now), the rare metals (cadmium, mercury, etc.)that are used in these devices, are polutting one of the main drinking sources - ground water from the leachate from dump sites.
I still wonder if changing out an appliance every 10-12 years for "higher" effiency really is better for our enviroment. If that "old" style boiler lasts 40-50 years, that is a heck of a lot of energy AND pollution saved from having to manufacture 2-3 new boilers over that lifetime.
Now, if the world does see a safe cold fusion household device ever created, then the above critique more then likely becomes moot!
Leo G0 -
I agree 100% Leo
This is exactly why I feel it's almost criminal the way many small consumer items are made to last a year or two and then become junk. The items small electronics items you mentioned seem to be designed with the end in mind.
Sadly, I think we will see that some of the current crop of condensing boilers have been designed to provide 5-10 years of service and they too will become trash. I do not think however that one should stick with a cast iron boiler based on the fact that it will last longer. Seeing consistent 30-50% reductions in energy usage more than makes up for having to replace a quality built condensing boiler once or twice in that time period.
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Plus...
... with any luck, a quality condensing boiler will last a long time. Sure, there are some moving parts that may wear out over time, need a replacement, etc. but the major components like the HX, vent system, etc. should last a very long time if installed and maintained properly.
Protecting these electronics from spikes, brownouts, etc. is one reason why I put a mod-con I was peripherally involved with on a UPS. The cleaner the energy going into the unit (both from an electrical and fuel perspective), the longer it ought to last.0 -
Failed Heat-X
I am not familiar with Aluminium heat exchangers. But it appears what ever caused the hole to appear, caused the nipple to corrode. If you look at the nipple close to the hole you will see that the material is thining. I would guess that this is being caused by the water side. The exterior of the nipple does not appear to be affected, only the interior.0 -
I've yet to see a tight mod con case
regardless of the air being piped to the boiler, if the case leaks it will inhale inside air, and whatever floats around the mechanical room space.
The original Ultra gasket was a joke. The new versions have a bulb type gasket like a car door seal. A free upgrade kit is available to replace that original sticky foam style.
If it is near the washer it will inhale soap fumes.
I think the Lochinvar approch is best with the air piped to the fan directly.
My last Polaris purchase had an intake air filter incuded in the box. That should handle airborne bugs that are commonly sucked into mod cons.
I'd like to see a settlement tee at the back also, like a gas line drip leg.
hot rod
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Ted: not sure if I can answer all of your questions; but...
Let's see: I already have a 95% efficient condensing boiler (Vitodens 200) - so I don't see much more to be gained there.
Solar is great - but normally you need to design a house for it. This house is not a good canidate for solar - and never will be without truely major renovations and changes.
You will not see home nuclear units. I might just be one person who could run one. But why bother - and the issues are not simple (neither is the fact that any fuel that gives off much heat has a half life too short to make it a good long term heating source).
I do note that even the oldest nuclear power plants were designed for an expected 40 year life, and the new ones are designed for a 60 year life - all without replacing key major components.
If I bought an highly rated energy efficient appliance a decade ago (or more) I doubt that the new ones are much more energy efficient - certainly not in the case of refrigerators, and freezers, where the change away from freon actually decreased the efficiency of the compressor and refridgerant cycle. The major efficiency gains in refriderators has been made in the better insulation of them - and you could buy well insulated ones by 1990.
Here's a good question for you though. Since the US has been focused on energy efficiency since the late 1970's - how come residential electrical usage has gone up an average of 28% per household since then? All those energy efficient appliances.... all the changes in lighting. Why has usage gone up so much. Wouldn't you think that it should have dropped substaintially (like it did in industry).
Consider that - while I know that my next appliance purchase will be on the energy efficient side of the options. I have always done that. Perhaps because I tend to buy the premium products they tend to last longer. I wouldn't know what a cheap appliace last as I refrain from buying them.
Oh, and I do expect my Vitodens 200 to last a long time; unlike some other boilers that were obviously designed for short lifes. In my book that includes the AL Block HX's - and the Munchkin (dispite it SS HX). I did not look closely at many others.
Something else to consider: I have this belief in maximizing my disposable income from a long term basis. Thus, the value of good constructed - but premium priced products show up. You should see my dress and semi dress shoes: Allan Edmunds. Check them out sometime. I guarantee that once you wear a pair of those (properely fitted) that you cannot go back to normal "cheaper" shoes. So what that they tend to run about $300 (or more) per pair. Take care of them and they will last you the rest of your life (and I am not kidding). Yes you may have to recondition them (new soles and leather care) once in a while. But, trust me - there is nothing else like them out there. Oh - they also happen to be made in the USA here in Wisconsin - and going strong. I think about the only shoe factory left in Wisconsin (there were about 100 of them 20 years ago).
Have a great day, I will be traveling tommorrow.
Perry0 -
I totally agree with this line of thinking.
A well built item that last a long time is far more total energy and environmental efficient than going through a number of poorly built short life items.
In the case of boilers - where installation alone is a minimum of several thousand dollars (and may easily be double that) cannot be made up by incremental increases in fuel efficiency over a boiler that last for decades.
Perry0 -
Perry
curious to know what the life expectancy is of your new boiler? And how you know that, considering the relatively new technology it incorporates.
Why not just stick with the proven stability of a cast iron boiler, it is a time tested reliable piece of equipment?
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Bob:
The HX design is awsome - and I say that because my area of expertise is the long term operation and maintenace of heat exhangers. It is the heart of the boiler.
The burner design is also very rugged.
So the two key items: HX and Burner are obviously designed for a long expected life. No other mod/con HX that I looked at was even close on the HX (I can tell you exactly where and how the Munckin HX will likely fail just by looking at the picture and knowing where the stresses are greatest and will cause fatigue cracking); and I think you should have seen my questions and research on Al Block HX's. Ugg.
The rest is controls - and I do worry about the life of the elctronics (one reason I put a $300 industrial surge protector in circuit that will not degrade over the years as the cheap electronic protection surge protectors do).
In the end, I figure I can buy a set or two of spare circuit boards if Viessmann is ever going to discontinue them in the next 20 years (and they may not - there are a lot of Vitodens 200 in Europe and they are selling strong in a lot of places yet). I would also buy some of the sensors as well.
Is that not how the cast iron boilers go as well. You may have to replace the controls, and perhaps a sensor, but the boiler and burner are solid.
So given that there was such a rugged HX and burner design - I figured the gamble on the controls was worth the major increase in effective boiler efficiency (so far I have seen a 45% reduction in therms - based on degree day matching).
Perry0 -
NTI Trinity
Hot Rod,
I believe that the NTI Trinity takes intake air directly into the blower, rather that a sealed cabinet(loosely).
Ross0 -
Another point to ponder
Our societies are very different when we compare US versus the EU. For example in Sweden most all corporations had until this year to have 40% women on their respective list of owners: corporate board, president, and management staff, or face expulsion from the country. Profit is highly regulated as are many social programs. Fuel costs are tightly controlled and in many areas they are considerably higher. If you look you can generally find exceptions depending upon which country, but my point is apples and oranges, ya they are both fruits but they are not the same. Making wide comparisons with collectivist counties is inherently wrong, and everyone should be aware of the advertising driven presence inherent in these arguments. Advertisers exert a huge influence on what we see and hear, and more than one editor has heard in retrospect which article they liked and which ones they didnt like, thats if you want to keep "our" advertising dollars that is. Sut Jhally and Noam Chompsky if any one cares to look them up. In Venezuela gas is about 20 cents per gallon; don't hear much comparison with South America at the moment. Every manufacturer in the world is looking at higher fuel prices to drive sales of heating equipment, joining this hype is only making unscrupulous marketing people rich, and making life difficult for us on the front lines. Most all manufacturers pay highly educated Mastered degree types to use every trick and piece of rhetoric to get us to purchase their equipment. For me the pictures at the beginning of this post say more about a balanced perspective than listening to more rhetoric from the factory. When a clear winner that has a collectivist motivation at heart produces a piece of equipment that lasts and is economical to maintain and run, we on the front lines will know, until that day arrives and it hasnt, know where your source of informations motivation truly lies. I was clearly told one thing and time has proven the marketing people wrong. I paid the price and until the manufacturers are more upfront about life expectancy and start publishing real fuel cost equipment ratios, I am a lot more skeptical about many of these outlandish marketing claims. Unfortunately our industrie suffers from a one sided perspective and the industries lobbies heavily to keep it this way, additionally who would pay for a truly unbiased and costly voice to study boiler efficiencies considering the old IBR was disbanded, in a sense. God Bless Dan and this free site, unfortunately I cannot fund a free institute and there wouldnt be any profit in it anyways this need to be addressed, and until it does making comparisons between boilers is going to be biased.0 -
Shoes
Hear, hear on the shoe observation, I have been paying, in comparison with others an insane amount of cash for Alden shoes, hard to find, but they have lasted for years, they have "truly paid for themselves in energy savings," and have been designed to be relasted and repaired many times.0
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