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Jury Rules That CSST is a Defective Product

ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
I was unaware of this case separate from the class action suit. Pretty interesting.



http://www.subrogationrecoverylawblog.com/2010/10/articles/products-liability/csst-1/jury-rules-that-csst-is-a-defective-product-in-landmark-case/
"The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
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Comments

  • lchmblchmb Posts: 2,027Member
    hmm

    Sounds like it could create alot of replacement work in the very near future...thanks for posting..:)
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  • Jean-David BeyerJean-David Beyer Posts: 2,435Member ✭✭✭
    Grumbling about CSST.

    In an earlier thread, I grumbled that my former contractor, who installed some of this when replacing my oil burner with a gas one, did no bonding of the CSST at all. I tried to figure out how to do it legally and effectively, and could not figure it out at all. At the gas meter end, there is a dielectric union to prevent grounding through the gas meter (as there should be). It would do no good to ground through the meter anyway because the gas company pipe is all plastic. One thought might be to install a suitable grounding stake next to the meter, but all the grounds of the house should be near each other, and as close to the power panel as possible. The power panel is far far away from the gas. I never resolved this issue.



    Now it seems there is no point resolving the bonding issue, since this jury's decision implies that bonding is not enough. Looks as though I will have to have the CSST ripped out and replaced by black pipe and two 45 or 90 degree elbows. I suppose I will need to get the gas inspector back in, the same one who approved the unbonded CSST in the first place.
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  • lchmblchmb Posts: 2,027Member
    edited February 2011
    JDB

    The bonding should be done where the the pipe enter's the house, attaching to the pipe adapter, not the pipe,  using a #6 ground wire. It is suggested to go to the electric panel from that point. I believe the cutoff is 30 feet max distance but I may be wrong. Due to the need to enter the electric panel it should be done by a licensed electrician. As far as black iron, I have installed alot of it and once done dont generally have any issues..
    Post edited by lchmb on
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  • Charlie from wmassCharlie from wmass Posts: 2,966Member ✭✭✭
    Getting into a load of head aches now

    I have a job a heating company installed a wall heater with CSST and never got it inspected or bonded it. Now the home owner is left holding the bag when I get my work inspected. Also the plumber who installed the stove and water heater never pulled a permit. They had used CSST to the water heater. As I was running past I changed it to iron while I was piping to the boiler. I really do not see the savings in an open basement of using CSST when weighed against the liability.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
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  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,809Member ✭✭✭
    The BAD thing about this....

    Once the insurance companies catch wind of this decision, if you KNOW you have it in your house, AND you have a near lightning strike that causes the CSST to Swiss Cheese on you, your home has no fire coverage...



    I discovered this the hard way with the Entran 2 cases. I had a retired pastor who had it in his house, and after the jury found it to be defective, his insurance company would no longer cover ANY water damage claims until it was completely removed, regardless of the source.



    The failure of this stuff is well documented on the internet. I also work with another expert witness who has investigated many CSST failures, and he said it is JUNK and should be removed wherever it has been installed. An accident waiting to happen.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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  • icesailoricesailor Posts: 6,872Member ✭✭✭✭
    CSST Bonding

    For what it is worth, You use a bonding clamp in the FITTING, bot the CSST tubing. What is what most electricians thought you had to do. it was never suggested that you do that. If you took a CSST course to be certified, and you had to be certified to install whatever brand you were installing, they taught you how to ground it. And it was the electricians job to do it. When the big issue of lightning strikes came up, and they finally got it re-approved in MA, it was some wiring inspectors who wouldn't allow it because there was nothing in their big NEC code about bonding CSST. Even a diagram showing how to do it didn't sway them.  The company (WardFlex, TightFlex? Whatever) that came out with the black CounterStrike brand has a high carbon cover and an aluminum screen inside the cover that makes for a continuous ground.bond. You still bond it WITH A CLAMP ON THE BRASS FITTING!!!! Not the CSST tubing.

    Other than being only .010" thick, stainless steel is a terrible conductor of heat. If something is a terrible conductor of heat, then it is a terrible conductor of electricity.

    If you are in a house that gets a strike, a really good strike, things are toast. Most houses have no really proper amount of grounding, Let alone, bonding. A lost art or unknown science.
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  • icesailoricesailor Posts: 6,872Member ✭✭✭✭
    Defective CSST

    That's over 14,000 miles of CSST pipe installed and a few holes in some pipe and the world ends. Pigs at the cash trough are now lining up for the feeding frenzy.

    Where I work is one of the lightning capitols of New England. Houses are severely damaged regularly. I heard about one house being hit where there was a pin hole. It hadn't been bonded. The NEC (I am told) says that everything is supposed to be bonded, It wasn't. Try to get Sparky to ever ground/bond anything for you. Don't hold your breath waiting.
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  • Jean-David BeyerJean-David Beyer Posts: 2,435Member ✭✭✭
    I know how the bonding should be done, but

    the house is just not set up so it can be done. Connecting the bonding to the fitting is the only way that would make sense anyway, because connecting to the flexible part with enough pressure would probably crush it.



    It is my understanding that the CSST should be bonded at both ends, and to the same point as the power panel is grounded. Maybe #6 wire is good enough for life safety, but I cannot see using anything much less than #4 or even larger when dealing with lightning induced  currents. But it is about 16 feet from where the CSST starts (nearest the meter) to the other end of the CSST, at least 20 more feet from there to the power panel, and then about 30 more feet to where the ground stakes are. Even if legal, that is not good.



    If I stuck a ground rod near the meter, there would be two widely separated grounds in the system, and the common mode noise in the event of a near hit would probably be enough to zap the CSST, and I do not know if the gas company would like me sticking a ground rod in the ground there right next to their plastic delivery pipe by the meter.



    If I have the money this summer, I think I will have it pulled out and replaced with black pipe. It would have been so much easier if they had done that in the first place. They had the black pipe, the cutter, the threading machine, lots of nipples and fittings. And it could have been a straight run. Now they will need a couple of extra elbows and a nipple.
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  • icesailoricesailor Posts: 6,872Member ✭✭✭✭
    Bonding:

    Of course it can be bonded now. You use those adjustable bonding clamps on the brass pipe fittings and and bond it into the rest of the bonding stuff. If you have to drive some ground bonding rods into the soil under the house, so be it. As long as you don't have ant orphan connections. They all must be tied together. The whole idea is to give stray current a way to get back into the earth. An easier way that it might pick so you give it a better choice.

    When they do a lightning protection system, they are supposed to bond everything metal to the system. That includes garage door tracks so that is some stray lightning finds the tracks, it will have an easier time getting where it wants to go.

    Remember, lightning goes both ways. Up and down. It will go through the earth and find a conductor to travel up to get back to the cloud where it started. A common problem where I work is an in-ground current, looks for a way to get back. It will find a 4" PVC well casing, blow a hole through the PVC casing, travel up the wire, hit the pressure switch, blow it all over the cellar along with the pressure switch and lightning arrestor, through the copper pipes and join up with the current that came in on the ground/neutral of the electrical and television service, melt the phone wires and spray hot copper bits all over the cellar, travel up the house to the finished garage office where it comes out of  floor plug, travels through the floor lamp, enters the ceiling, exits through the roof, and blows the wood shingles off in an upward direction. Where it goes to join its other ion brothers to create havoc on the sky.

    And I have to replace the pump and well for the sand running into the casing from the hold.

    Life can be good.
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  • lchmblchmb Posts: 2,027Member
    JDB

    The last course I attended for Tracpipe only require's one bonding clamp where the pipe enter's the house. You do not have to do both ends. And being 15 feet from the meter, #6 wire is all they require. Your not looking for a direct lightning strike, it's the indirect current that is the concern.
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  • Jean-David BeyerJean-David Beyer Posts: 2,435Member ✭✭✭
    Lightning adventures.

    Your discussion of what lightning can do reminds me of an incident near here that was similar, though smaller. The local railroad was electrically powered with 12,500 volt catenary wher ethe circuit breakers were set at 1,500 amps. The crossing gates were aluminum extrusions. No problem until a careless driver hit the gate and bushed it enough out of alignment so when it went back up, it hit the catenary system. The gate melted. But the flashing red lights on the arm of the gate were connected to the control system in a bungalow (a metal structure) nearby. They have a little lightning protection, but cannot resist a direct hit of course. When the 12,500 went down the wire, through the ground, and intothe bungalow, it hit the relay contacts. WOW! These contacts are about 3/8 inch in diameter of silver-graphite "alloy". They are each inside a clear plastic box to protect them from dirt and insects. THE SILVER JUST PLAIN EVAPORATED and condensed on the inside of the plastic box.



    As far as lightning going both ways, that is for sure. A cloud above and the surface of the ground below make a capacitor. The path between through which the current flows has inductance, so there is a tuned circuit and the lightning discharge is oscillatory; the freqauency determined by the capacitance and inductance. This is usually too high to see with the naked eye, but can be observed with suitable instrumentation.



    In my situation, driving an additional ground stake would be easy (if I do not hit the plastic gas pipe buried in there by mistake), but tying it in with the rest of the grounding would result in excessively long bonding wires between the various portions of the system. And with the ground stakes widely separated, the ground currents from a near miss would be very high, causing huge ground loop currents in the bonding between the various ground stakes. I am afraid it will be simpler and cheaper to just remove the damned CSST and have black pipe put in. It is a staight piece about 15 feet long, two elbows, and a nipple. All one-inch.
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  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,869Member
    What caught my Eye

    Was the paragraph that NFPA is considering banning it. That caused me to do a little digging at their site. They did call for and are conducting a study as to whether the bonding itself will prevent failures from a strike. That final report according to what I could find was given a Jan 2011 date of submission but I couldn't find the final report itself. Will be interested in its findings when it comes out.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
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  • Jean-David BeyerJean-David Beyer Posts: 2,435Member ✭✭✭
    From where the pipe enters my house...

    to the power panel where I would expect to ground it (ignoring the 30 feet of so from there to the ground stakes) is about 40 feet, not 15.
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  • Tim McElwainTim McElwain Posts: 3,156Member ✭✭✭
    Better ban

    black pipe and copper. Being an old timer I have seen it all, in fact I used to have a picture of one of these can't seem to find it. Anyway here goes, 1972 during an electrical storm got a call for a fire on a roof with two gas roof top heaters. Upon arrival sure enough the 1 1/2" gas line running across the roof to one of the heaters was on fire. I shut the gas off at the meter and went up on the roof, during the electrical storm which was about an hour before my arrival the lightning had struck the gas line on the roof and blew a hole in the schedule 40 black pipe, not only that but two gas valves and four transformers got cooked.



    This is another separate incident which I have actually seen happen several times. The flex connector on gas ranges had a hole blown in the connector which  occurred during electrical storms.



    Last of all a two inch copper pipe with water running through it running to a gas roof top air conditioner had a hole blown in three different spots.



    Lightning is powerful stuff so the truth be known nothing can resist lightning. 
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  • GordyGordy Posts: 3,572Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2011
    Mother nature

      Tim, the only thing I can say to that is what if in those situations it was csst pipe?



     Probably more failures from csst do to wall thickness, or even wall shape (corrugated) verses the pipes you mention in your post. Thoughts Tim?





    Gordy
    Post edited by Gordy on
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  • Tim McElwainTim McElwain Posts: 3,156Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2011
    To the best of my knowledge

    and I certainly stand to be corrected this only happened once. Most of the time everything gets grounded through the bare copper wire that is attached to the equipment and that back to the grounding rod.



    Back 10 years ago the code book required all gas lines to be bonded at the point were they came out of the ground. It was usually a clamp on the outlet pipe that went directly to the electrical ground rod. If not close to that then a separate rod had to be installed. Truth no one or very rarely did anyone bother to do this. Here in Rhode Island we had one electrical inspector who demanded it be done. A few years later that was removed from the code book and it stated that as long as the integrity of the electrical system bare copper (ground) wire was in place no bonding was required.



    While we are talking about this how many times have you gotten a shock from the gas line. One of my service techs many years back got hit with 600 volts. It is a good idea to test all piping with a meter before you touch it.
    Post edited by Tim McElwain on
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  • TonySTonyS Posts: 840Member ✭✭
    Good riddance

    Wont miss it at all. Just more junk that takes the skill out of our trade. I for one enjoy cutting and threading steel pipe.
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  • heatechheatech Posts: 5Member
    yes

    here here
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  • heatboyheatboy Posts: 1,468Member
    So, I'm hearing......

    ....that anyone who chooses to use this product, is contributing to the lack of skills we face?  All the piping changes or advancements over the years, like, PEX, PVC, ProPress and even copper, instead of iron pipe, have dumbed us down?



    I agree there is a vast shortage of skill shown on some projects these days, but I certainly don't blame the products.  More, it's the integrity of the individual that is the overwhelming issue we face.  And that, you can't police.
    heatboy



    The Radiant Whisperer





    "The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of ecomomics every time."
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  • RobbieDoRobbieDo Posts: 131Member
    Bonding

    I'm a electrician also. The Trac pipe ( which I don't like to use ) is suppose to be bonded to the electric service, #6 bare copper wire, with proper connectors that go on the connector, not the SS pipe. I have seen some much of this installed and not properly bonded it's crazy. Many years ago you didn't have to bond conduit, you relied on the connector screw to ground the conduit, now youmhave to pull a ground wire completely through the conduit as the screws are not a good ground. Just like grounding on either side of water meter, rubber bushings. Trac pipe is the same.
    Rob
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  • TonySTonyS Posts: 840Member ✭✭
    edited March 2011
    Stand back and look at the big picture

    Our piping is carrying flammable gas into the living structure. The same place where children and pets and loved ones live and sleep. We know for a fact that black steel has a life span of over a hundred years. Even in basements where women hang their clothes to dry on the gas pipe, kids practice riding their bicycles and whatever else people do in their homes that inadvertently require the use of gas pipe as a hanger or hold. I'm not saying I approve of these things but we have all seen it.

    So explain to me what advantage this csst is for your customer! Really... did it save them tons of money because an apprentice could do it instead of a fitter? How many millions of feet of this stuff are in before they told us to bond it? Does it really make you feel better knowing your customers lives are betting on a ground wire that could corrode or inadvertently be disconnected and will probably never be tested to begin with or ever afterwords.  Nah Ill stick to using steel for my customers and ill sleep a little better at night. Ill be more than happy to remove this crap and put it in the same pile as the ultravent and plexvent. Two more of the advancements you forgot to mention.
    Post edited by TonyS on
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  • GlenGlen Posts: 854Member
    I have to comment -

    and ask the question; " is bonding being confused with grounding.?" The CSA B 149.1 and the Canadian Electrical Code do not consider them the same. Bonding ensures electrical continuity of the appliances and piping in the gas system. As such about 100 VA is a maximum it can handle. Grounding must be able to withstand the complete load if there is a failure in the electrical system; typically 240 VAC/200 amps. I do not believe any CSST product has been tested or approved to withstand the full force of lightening. That would be separate protection isolated even from the household electrical ground. Bonding is accomplished by securing a #6 bare conductor between the gas piping and the water piping. One could I suppose attach a large brass or bronze bonding clamp to a CSST connection fitting; and while I have not looked at the newest catalogues for a while - I'll bet each manufacturer makes a specific attachment for bonding. The news article is interesting reading - but any savvy risk assessment lawyer will have it shot full of holes in short order. Even sch 40 A53 will melt with a full charge of lightening. I have used the Gastite product for years and it has it's place - most times - I'd rather twist pipe.
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  • GordyGordy Posts: 3,572Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 2011
    Csst for the DIY

      Did this stuff originate as appliance connection pipe at first, and stem out from there?  Maybe oriented to the DIY not having to buy a bunch of black pipe fittings to hook up their appliances risking multiple leak points.  Instead go to your big box store and get the handy Csst installation kit so you can do loop to loops around what ever no fittings required.  Then maybe expanded the product to the thought of less fittings in larger scale installations, and being safer because of fewer joints thus fewer possible leak points.



      Looking at it like that it was really an attempt to take the possible mistakes out of a DIY installations which is more of a common place now days.  I think you guys are to hard on yourselves by saying the product dumbs down your trade.  I think it was more about dollars saved than choosing not to spin pipe......For some I should say.



      As for grounding verses bonding.  The way I simply understand it bonding protects the equipment, and infrastructure. Grounding helps protects the human element from electrocution. I could be wrong on this though.
    Post edited by Gordy on
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  • Tim McElwainTim McElwain Posts: 3,156Member ✭✭✭
    CSST was originally developed

    as a means to save time and labor on new construction piping systems and has very clear procedures for installation. I personally have seen it used very effectively for that purpose. One outfit that I was working with as an observer for the American Gas Association (AGA) was installing an average of three new houses a day versus black pipe installations taking a full day per house.



    CSST then evolved into a way to make repairs for example in a three decker with a gas leak on the pipe running up through the interior wall getting black pipe into those spaces to replace the leaking pipe was next to impossible. CSST allowed for fairly simple snaking of the replacement through those same partitions.



    It has also been very effectively used for gas log inserts into fireplaces by being able to drill a hole through the heart and run CSST for those connections.



    The fact that you have to factory certified to install this in many states says it is not for hackers of DIYers.



    All things require some skill and I do not ever see black pipe disappearing



    There is no comparison here to Plexvent and Ultravent, those were doomed from day one. I actually ran extensive testing at our lab at the gas company on both of them and we would not allow them to be used on a run beyond 8 feet and that with support every two feet. Eventually we found real problems with some installations, Eventually the test case in my lab began to sag and eventually fell apart.



    Might I add those who post here should seriously look at the use of PVC and CPVC for venting. In both the case of Plexvent and Ultravent our Canadian friends were the first to outlaw the stuff. In many areas in Canada it can't be used and only ULC-S636 is allowed. In a lot of cases manufacturers are going to PPS (polypropylene). 
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  • TonySTonyS Posts: 840Member ✭✭
    Tim

    Settling out of court for millions without accepting liability. Crap tubing, Crap companies. Just another bunch of liars and thieves.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2uI_GYXWyU&feature=related. By the way, while searching through a multitude of these videos and articles on csst I couldn't seem to find a single incident with failed PVC.
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  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 4,809Member ✭✭✭
    Certification..... We don't need no stinkin' certification.....

    I took the "class" from one of the suppliers. Never received my certification. Neither did any of the other company employees that took the training at the same time I did.



    With that said, I and the other employees have purchased CSST of different and varying brands from numerous wholesale suppliers, and not ONCE have I or the other guys ever been asked to show our "Certified Installer" card in order to take possession of the material.



    How many wholesale counter employees have ever ASKED to see a cert card before selling it over the counter?



    Chris, you're a wholesaler. What is your company policy?



    Any other wholesalers care to chime in (anonamously if you feel the need) ?



    Maybe it's a ploy on the manufacturers part to spread the liability...



    I was on a job today, that the CSST was installed within the last year, and was inspected by the AHJ, and didn't have ANY grounding/binding. Who's responsible there? Any AHJ who claims they can't be held liable needs to follow the tragic CO case in Aspen...



    I have a feeling this is going to turn into a debacle that will make Entran 2 seem pale in comparison.



    JMHO



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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  • Tim McElwainTim McElwain Posts: 3,156Member ✭✭✭
    Okay Tony S you are probably right

    as I find you are typically always right. As for the PVC/CPVC come see me in Rhode Island I can show you several failed units. Also if you are interested I have written several articles on the subject. Viessmann responded to one of my articles with a rather interesting couple of pages of comments. Hang in there as sooner or later it will be outlawed.



    By the way PVC and CPVC have never been tested or approved for venting. Talk to the Charlotte Pipe people and ask to see the test results, there are none. Even though the pipe is supposed to be inert, it will under high temps breakdown and release chloride gases which can affect metal surfaces inside the combustion chamber.



    This is an excerpt from a recent John Siegenthaler (Siggy) article, do you know who he is?





    I quote



     

    “The use of PVC venting for mod/con boilers seems to be at a crossroads. While PVC remains acceptable to some boiler manufacturers, other manufacturers have specifically banned it from use with their products. The issues in question include long-term integrity of the pipe and its joining methods at higher-than­ expected flue gas temperatures, leaching of potentially corrosive chlorides from the pipe, and the lack of specific approvals from some PVC pipe manufacturers regarding use of their pipe for venting heat sources.

     

    I think it's inevitable that AL29-4C stainless steel and polypropylene will take over as the preferred venting materials for all condensing heat sources. “

     

    End of quote.
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  • Tim McElwainTim McElwain Posts: 3,156Member ✭✭✭
    Mark it is being enforced

    In Massachusetts and Rhode Island, in fact the certification is being done in Mass I believe at some of the classes for CEU's for licensing. The supply house up the road from me if they do not know you will ask for your card from whichever company product they sell. The next time you come in they will not ask again.



    We had a real donny brook several years back in Mass when a little girl was killed from Carbon Monoxide. Now in every installation manual you look at there is a special page instructing how you go about insuring CO protection and it isi enforced.



    Mass also enforces the required bonding or grounding of CSST. It is really not such a big deal.



    I wish I could find my pictures of roof top equipment that the gas company took of units that were hit by lightening. Say maybe we should take all the equipment of the roof. Not a bad idea here recently we have 75 roofs on flat building collapse under snow-load. All speced for 38 pounds per square foot according to code.



    Say how about we never get flooded here tell that to all the Rhode Islanders who were under water. FEMA made sure all the heating and water heating equipment was removed and new equipment installed. By the way in the same spot were it just got flooded. Seem we never smarten up.
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  • Jean-David BeyerJean-David Beyer Posts: 2,435Member ✭✭✭
    At least two, then.

    "I was on a job today, that the CSST was installed within the last year,

    and was inspected by the AHJ, and didn't have ANY grounding/binding.

    Who's responsible there? Any AHJ who claims they can't be held liable

    needs to follow the tragic CO case in Aspen..."



    My piece of yellow CSST has no grounding or bonding at either end. Several inspectors passed the installation. Home inspector, plumbing inspector, electrical, inspector, ... . Almost two years ago. Using the CSST could not have saved the contractor much, as they had black pipe, threading machine, nipples, fittings, etc. right here, and it would have been a straight run had they not installed the boiler about 3 inches too far to the right.



    I am still undecided whether to ground the [censored] stuff at both ends with #4 stranded wire (it is way too far to the system ground), or to replace with black pipe this summer.
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  • Tim McElwainTim McElwain Posts: 3,156Member ✭✭✭
    Tony S if I might

    add one of those crap companies you refer to which made Plexvent is Plexco the number one producer of plastic gas pipe used for gas mains and gas serices all over North America. If they make a crap product you better hope there pipe is not in the ground in front of your house.



    In fact i find you think everthing is crap, what is your problem?
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  • TonySTonyS Posts: 840Member ✭✭
    Tim

    Consider the fact that 98 % of the country is warm air. Do you really believe that all those condensing furnaces are going to be installed with AL294C, dont hold your breath!

     I want to thank you for making me look a little deeper into this csst ordeal. I downloaded the videos on my laptop to show potential customers what we Dont use! I think this will seal up a few jobs.

    I might add before going after the pvc on condensing units, start small and first get it off the non condensing power vent water heaters.

    Im not trying to bust your bubble here Tim I was just trying to bring a little truth here with some videos of whats going on with this product, real people , real fires, real out of court settlements. I also searched for lawsuits and deaths from pvc venting and Im sorry but I just couldnt find any. Do you know of any?? Please post them.
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  • TonySTonyS Posts: 840Member ✭✭
    Check out ebay

    Mark, check out ebay. CSST .. all you want. I dont think they even ask for a note from your mom, they just send it right to your door. Every apartment owners dream.
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  • TonySTonyS Posts: 840Member ✭✭
    What are you saying!

    Are you saying Plexo is number one because they made plexvent? Are you saying that because they made a bad product they are still number one. I dont know where your going with this Tim.  You better get some sleep Tim, you defended the csst people admirably, Im sure your checks will continue to come in.
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  • GordyGordy Posts: 3,572Member ✭✭✭
    Bonding gas pipe

      JDB Technically the gas line should be bonded.  Going by Tim's experience things can happen to ANY type of piping for gas.  BUT how many homes have bonded gas piping.





     Gordy
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  • RobbieDoRobbieDo Posts: 131Member
    NEC Code

    NEC Bonding Gas Lines

    (B) Other Metal Piping. Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.



    FPN: Bonding all piping and metal air ducts within the premises will provide additional safety.



    This is from the National Electric Code Book. I always follow this rule, the inspector allows looks for it or I show him that it is all bonded. Might sound stupid but these regulations are here for protection. I do ALL of my electrical work per the NEC code, I'm also an Electrician/HVAC tech.

    Rob
    Rob
    · ·
  • ScottScott Posts: 5,884Member
    Tony

    Your snide remark about Tim being on "ANYONES" payroll is unfounded and unfair. I have known Tim for years now and he is one of the most honest and moral man you will ever find.

    His knowledge of gas equipment is deeper than most. His comments about csst come from an open mind and testing Not supposition.

    Scott

     
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  • Jean-David BeyerJean-David Beyer Posts: 2,435Member ✭✭✭
    how many homes have bonded gas piping

    I do not know. My house had no gas until the gas company installed it in May 2009. It was inspected for leaks by the gas company before they would even put a meter in. When the job was done, 3 different inspectors checked the installation, and passed it. All the piping is plainly visible. So it should be up to code in New Jersey as of that date. Most of it is black pipe, and there is a piece of yellow CSST across my garage at ceiling level (no ceiling, though). None of it is bonded. At the gas meter end, there is no grounding. First of all, except for a short piece of silvery steel pipe that enters the ground, everything in the street and in the ground from the street to the meter is plastic. At the output of the meter is a dielectric union that goes to black pipe. So no grounding or bonding there. Once it is in the garage, black pipe goes up to the ceiling level (no bonding); from there it is CSST across the garage to where the boiler is (no bonding); from there it is black pipe again that comes down part way, shrinks to 3/4 inch , goes through a shut off valve, and shrinks to 1/2 inch to enter the boiler (still no bonding). Inside the boiler, the gas pipe is silver-colored steel. This goes through a short flex piece to the gas regulating valve through a blower into the boiler where the burner is. The burner is grounded because it is inside the aluminum heat exchanger with the water in it (there is also another small ground wire to complete the circuit for the electro-zapper igniter), and the boiler is plumbed into the city water and all that piping is copper; 1/2 inch to begin with, then 3/4 inch out to the street. I do not believe the gas line is ever connected to the water, and some of the ducting of the gas-air mixture may be fiberglass filled plastic (I did not check). So if the gas is grounded anywhere, it is by hit or miss methods that I hope are not code.
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  • TonySTonyS Posts: 840Member ✭✭
    Tims a big boy

    I think he can have a lively debate without being Patronized,Scott.

    Getting back to this thread, it really doesnt matter what we think about csst. The jury has spoken. Im sure they were given a very detailed account from both sides.

    Read the article....  Omegaflex also argued that a properly bonded CSST system could

    withstand the energy produced from an indirect lightning strike. 

    Omegaflex's failure to EVER TEST TracPipe’s ability to withstand such

    energy, when properly bonded, proved fatal to its defense. ...Now why couldnt they prove that!! Why didnt they do a test before.

    So the way I understand it is...Bond all you want, its not even proven that it works!! How can a company that spent so much on making the pipe that you didnt even need special tools to put it together just let it slip their minds about the bonding test?
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