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A modest proposal....How to pick below slab insulation

[Deleted User]
[Deleted User] Posts: 1,160
in THE MAIN WALL
Greg, I will post them as I get them. NOt sure how often that will be, but probably monthly at a minimum.

ME

Comments

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 108
    A test...

    The controversy continues. "My insulation is the equivilant of R 6000..." I for one tire of hearing baseless claims, so I am proposing a side by side thermal resistance test, and I think I may have just the test bed.

    Normally, I would have my students at RRCC do this testing, but due to a serious lack of funds, and realy, no real good test bed examples for snowmelt, I've had to resort to urban hydronic guerilla warfare tactics. I put my head together with my supplier/friend/confidant, Matt Carr, and we are going to do the following testing.

    I have a major private residential snowmelt project starting up next week (have actually been working on it off and on for close to a year now). I propose that we take a 4'X 4' piece of 1" XPS, same size of bubble foil bubble, same size of The Barrier, same size of 1/2" EPS, same size of Insultarp and anything else within reason that can be donated (I'm sure I'm forgetting one of the new technologies...) and expose them all to the same conditions below a slab, and see how they do. I propose that we bury a sensor one foot deep below each representive sample, and one in the very center of the slab. We then connect HOBO temperature recorders to the sensors and have it "sample" once per hour. We let the system run through the winter, and publish the results.

    All samples are exposed to the same operating conditions, therefore, no hanky panky can be played, and at the end of the test, I publish the results in my monthly column.

    I will address things like cost per square foot to the contractor, ease of installation, and apparent thermal performance. About the only thing that would be impossible to test would be crush resistance under the slab...

    Whaddya think?

    If people (contractors) will voluntairly send me samples (I only need one of each, and I have XPS, EPS and B/F/B covered) then the manufacturers are not involved, and therefore we can freely publish the results without fear of repraisal.

    If this is going to happen, it needs to happen quick, because we'll be doing the driveway slab next week.

    I've approached he GC, and he's approaching the HO for permission to proceed. I meet with the GC tomorrow, and will let you know what the HO said.

    If not this project, I'm sure someone can come up with a good candidate project to do this on. I'll supply the monitoring equipment and the data extrapolation.

    Any donors?

    ME
  • c.t.kay
    c.t.kay Member Posts: 85
    test

    a side by side test might need more seperation between the test patches to obtain clear data.i would be interested in seeing the results,will look around and see if we have any samplesto send.
  • Andrew Hagen (ALH)
    Andrew Hagen (ALH) Member Posts: 165
    Question

    What if some of the manufacturers are advertisers in the magazine? It might ruffle some feathers.

    -Andrew
  • joel_19
    joel_19 Member Posts: 933
    Hey

    Can't really send you a piece but i could pay for a piece .

    IMHO I believe you will find that the bubble foil type stuff is worth zip point nothing .

    There was a study printed last year in Home Energy magazine done in Canada very similar to yours.

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  • Plumdog_2
    Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 870


    Excellent! I've long dreamed of doing side by side comparisons of all sorts of heating products; but who has the money? Anyone want to place bets? I pick the high psi rigid foam board with foil face to win (performance only, not cost or ease of installation).
  • Cosmo_3
    Cosmo_3 Member Posts: 845
    can't wait

    to see the results of this one

    Cosmo Valavanis

    Dependable P.H.C. Inc.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 1,160
    You can't make an omlet....

    without breaking some eggs.

    This is really not a beauty contest. It's a test. There will be no right or wrong answers, just results.

    If they didn't want it tested, they shouldn't have brought it to the market.

    As they say in Aspen, "If you don't want it printed, don't let it happen..."

    I'm no out to make friends or enemies, just out to find results, at my own expense.

    If the editors of the magazine forbid me from doing the article, I'll have it published in the RPA newsletter.

    One way or another, the truth WILL get out.

    ME
  • Andrew Hagen (ALH)
    Andrew Hagen (ALH) Member Posts: 165
    Good to hear

    I look forward to the results. It's about time someone separates marketing from reality.

    -Andrew
  • RoosterBoy
    RoosterBoy Member Posts: 459
    Mark!

    Made the same sort of offer to Keller supply when they went into business,except i was going to do snow melt applications on the sidewalk with expansion joint materials dividing the different sections....Justa thought....

    every one is in big hurry ,too bad really because at the time it would have been easy to show various "forms" of installations and the responces from each.....Good luck. i have a pound of that space shuttel ceramic...i could send i'd like to see it sprayed on the ground side of some 2" blue foam, say 1/4" thick...and see if it works under foam to make any real contributions to the escapeage of btus ...
  • Dave Stroman
    Dave Stroman Member Posts: 765


    How about a test patch with nothing at all?

    Dave in Denver

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 1,160
    Possibly...

    Our manifold boxes will be located within a dog run, and no heat was specified for this area. I suppose I could throw tube down and not insulate it. I'd never consider doing it that way in the drive way. I don't think the HO or the GC would stand for it. I lknow I wouldn't.

    ME
  • Mike Reavis_2
    Mike Reavis_2 Member Posts: 295
    I am trying to imagine this test.

    How will you make all things equal if these areas of differing insulation abut each other, and are ajoining areas that area unheated? Help me to understand this test. I am interested, and have no axe to grind with reference to manufacturers, products etc.

    Mike
  • Terry H.
    Terry H. Member Posts: 73
    Another question

    Why doesn't the RPA do things like this?

    Terry H.
  • Jeff Lawrence_24
    Jeff Lawrence_24 Member Posts: 593
    Shipping

    Mark, I'll ship you a piece of half inch Slab-Sheild if you'd like.

    Send me your address.

    jeff

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  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    Here is my sensored test pad

    I only did InsulTarp and 1" foam. I put sensors in the slab, just below the insulation, and 1 foot below. I brought all the color coded pex sensors to a plastic junction box.

    I've been too cheap to spend my hard earned energy dollard running the slab to get results, however. I never thought of doing it with a customers fuel dollars :)

    Now LP has doubled from last years prices! I may have to do the test with my wood fired boiler.

    I built the soil senssors by soldering a copper tube to a piece of flattened copper pipe for a good thermal connection.

    hot rod

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  • jerry scharf_3
    jerry scharf_3 Member Posts: 419
    shading

    Mark,

    Just one thought when you do it. If you can arrange the tiles so they shade somewhat similarly during the winter months, the slab results will be much closer.

    jerry
  • john_27
    john_27 Member Posts: 195


    I also have purchased some radiant barrier....but my interest
    lies more in using the sample to create airspaces....and also
    to eliminate attic heat in the summer. One more thing...
    I have a greenhouse....and am testing this product as a heat curtain. I know this is different than your test....let's see how we do!...John
  • Plumdog_2
    Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 870
    scientific stuff

    took 1 sqaure foot each of bubble foil, barrier, and 1/2 inch rigid double foil-faced board to the Carol King concert at Red Rocks Outdoor Ampitheatre. Sat on it in the rain on concrete stadium seats. Everyone agreed the board was best by far. "I feel the Earth move under my feet...."
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    I sat on an ice rink

    with 1" foam, than a piece of Insultarp. The Insultarp felt warmer, and certainly softer than the 1" foam :)

    Seat of the pants research :)

    hot rod

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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 108
    ITS A GO!!!

    Got permission from the owner and the GC. It's going to cost me something in trade, but we have confirmation. Send samples to me at 1426 W. Maple Ave Denver, CO. 80223

    We're actually doing the insulation and mesh on this coming Wednesday, so whatever samples that are here by then go in, and if they arrive after...SO SOLLY.

    Thanks to eveyone for the input and effort. We'll ALL learn something from this process.

    ME
  • Wally Radjenovic
    Wally Radjenovic Member Posts: 6
    A test

    Mark,

    I would donate it directly from us or would give credit to a user/distributor/contractor from their stock so as not to imply any sway on my part or the insinuation that I've altered the product for the test. We've done test like this in our own "backyard" so to speak when we were developing The Barrier and would love to see the data as our customers are constantly asking about some type of quantitative real world test of the product's effectiveness.

    Let me know your progress.

    Also, if anyone is going to the RadFest East, I'll be there exhibiting and would enjoy meeting some of the readers.

    Regards,

    Wally Radjenovic
    800-339-4850

    Please contact me as I would love to have photos and the test results.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 108
    Thanks Wally...

    One of the local purveyors of your product has volunteered some excess material he had from a personal installation.

    ME
  • Greg Swob
    Greg Swob Member Posts: 167
    test results

    Mark- will you be doing a running tabulation of results and post them here as they come in or just wait the winter for one overall evaluation? I know you are a 'detail guy' and will do a final summary, but it may be interesting to see performance periodically. Thanks- Greg
  • CDM2
    CDM2 Member Posts: 18
    Insulation

    Mark,

    Do you have any Reflectix product for your testing? If not, let me know. I will send you what you need. You can e-mail me direct, or call me 217.355.4520. I also have some insul tarp scraps.

    Regards,
    DM

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