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Newbie - One pipe steam, farthest room from boiler cold
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Allan_2
Member Posts: 18
heat seems to be working just fine today.. if not better.
I think it'll be much improved once I get the mains vented properly... need to have someone drill/tap a 1/2 threaded pipe hole - I don't know how to do it myself.
I think it'll be much improved once I get the mains vented properly... need to have someone drill/tap a 1/2 threaded pipe hole - I don't know how to do it myself.
0
Comments
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help?
Any suggestions? I'm waiting for two books "We got steam heat" and "pocketful of steam problems" but trying to do as much research as possible before they get here.
Purchased this house in 2003, small (450sq ft/floor) pre-war attached home in Queens, NY. I lived in the 2nd bedroom for the past few years. Recently moved into the master bedroom, didn't realize this problem existed.. old roommate didn't mind the cold I guess.. the new wife does
Symptoms:
Farthest radiator (from both main and boiler) isn't heating up enough to warm the room. it gets warm but not hot. This room has a few problems - a closet that has a hatch leading to the flat roof (cold drafts) and probably some other issues as well. it's the coldest room in the house. All radiator air vents do hiss at times. Hammering is minimal.
System:
Gas Weil-Mclain Boiler at back of the house in the basement. It leads to a main pipe, 2.5" diameter, 26 feet long. At the boiler end of the main, the radiators at the back of the house on first (1a) and second (2a) floors are connected. At the other end of the main (26ft away from the boiler), there's the first floor radiator (1b) and the radiator in question (2b). There's an elbow that connects from the end of the main to a pipe that leads to the basement floor. At that elbow is an air vent- working? not sure. All pipes are non insulated. I will be making a trip to home depot to get insulation for any pipes that are visible to me.
Radiators 1a and 1b affect the thermostat. All radiators except for 2b seem to be heating the rooms well.
1 3/4" pipe from main to all radiators
Radiators:
1a) 5 ft from furnace/main
27" wide, 25" high, 5" deep - columns, approx 9 or 10 (didn't count).
1b) 10ft from far end of main
34" wide, 25" high, 5" deep - columns, approx 13
2a) 16ft from furnace/main
27" wide, 25" high, 5" deep - columns, approx 9 or 10
2b) 21ft from fartest end of main
34" wide, 25" high, 5" deep - columns, approx 130 -
flooding vent issue...
oh yes,
There were some guys re-lining my chimney over the summer. They were working around the boiler and didn't realize that they had cracked open the water supply valve. Eventually, water started pouring out of the first floor radiator air vents. We shut off the supply valve and drained the water from the boiler end. No water appeared to come out of the main's air vent.
Not sure if that broke anything - This of course was before I did any research on this system. I didn't even know my heating system was steam at the time.0 -
try this
check the venting of that slow to heat radiator.
1.) Make sure the radiator valve is all the way open.
2.) Remove the radiator vent when the system is heating up. If the radiator heats quickly you know its a venting issue and the cure would be a faster vent or multiple vents added to the same radiator0 -
Thanks!
Thanks, I'll try that. but doesnt the hissing tell me something about the venting of the system?
The first floor adjustable vents are set to "closed" but heat up just fine. Ive a feeling I should replace all four vents... as well as the main vent0 -
Try insulating the mains and any visible pipes first. You may me losing capacity through uninsulated pipes.
Try to get better insulation than which is sold at HD.
1.5 inches thick fiberglass is the accepted rule.0 -
what about...
pipes that are exposed? the riser going up to the cold room is completely exposed to the livingroom below... the basement ceiling is low and the main isn't covered either... (finished basement)0 -
insulate that too...
can't hurt...find a way for the steam to keep being steam...if it drops below 212 you have water...kpc
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insulate, main vents, good radiator vents, check presuretrol
Insulate your mains as one of the other folks said, you wouldn't believe how much heat you're wasting in your basement. Mine used to be 30-40F warmer than the rest of the house before I insulated the mains. This is all steam that is being wasted. I used 1 in. fiberglass on the mains and 1/2 in. on the radiator risers that I could get to. You must buy the 1 in. at a plumbing supply house, but the 1/2 in. you can generally find at Home Depot if they have your width (I believe they only carry up to 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 in, so you may need to buy everything at a plumbing supply store).
The hissing is not normal. From my recent experience at my house, this sounds to me like you need main vents or yours don't work right. You'll want Gorton 1s or 2s for your main vents, someone can help you figure out how many and which type you need. Do you only have one main (this 26 ft. 2.5 inch pipe?)
If you do not have main vents, your system will not heat in a balanced fashion from my experience. Main vents make a drastic difference in how well a steam radiator system run by gas/oil functions.
Make sure you have good vents on your radiators. Everyone swears by the Gortons and I've had great luck with them as well, plus, the people at the company are super nice, but they're not adjustable, so you'll want to get the right size. (Generally C's for most large radiators and D's for gigantic ones very far away and 6's for the smaller radiator or one that heats way too fast with a C after you vent your mains). I've also had good luck with the Varivalve Heat-timers, a few people have had issues with them. Unfortunately, most of the other radiator vents are garbage. You must buy these at a plumbing supply store, good vents are not sold at HD. Call ahead since not all plumbing stores will carry the brand you want.
I have not had good luck with the Ventrites or other brands since they simply don't vent enough air for my radiator sizes.
1a) 5 ft from furnace/main 27" wide, 25" high, 5" deep - columns, approx 9 or 10 (didn't count).
>> If this is 26 in. high and 1 column (i'm guessing this based on 5 in. deep), this would be 2 EDR per section, times 10, for 20 EDR.
1b) 10ft from far end of main 34" wide, 25" high, 5" deep - columns, approx 13
>> If this is also 26 in. high, 1 column and 13 sections, this would be 2 EDR per section, times 13 for 26 EDR.
2a) 16ft from furnace/main 27" wide, 25" high, 5" deep - columns, approx 9 or 10
>> If this is also 26 in. high, 1 column, 10 sections, this would be 2 * 10 for 20 EDR.
2b) 21ft from fartest end of main 34" wide, 25" high, 5" deep - columns, approx 1
>> Are you saying this radiator only has 1 section and 1 column and is approx 25 in. high? This is important to figure this out because you need to know the EDR to figure out the right vent. This doesn't sound right to me, this would be a really small radiator.
See:
http://www.burnham.com/Sizing.cfm
Let us know the height in inches, number of columns or tubes (corto-style) and # of sections on each radiator, then we can figure out the right starting vents for you.
Also check your pressuretrol to ensure it is set to .5 cut-in and 1 on the DIFFerential (must take cover off genreally to see this)
As a temporary measure, you should take the radiator vent off of the radiator that isn't heating up well when it's running to see if it heats up better. If it does, this would tell you that good main vents and a proper radiator vent will make a big difference. It is close to impossible to balance a steam system until you have good main vents.
The other thing is make sure you deal with the drafts coming through windows. That is the problem that I'm on to right now. You can fix all of the problems with your boiler, radiator and piping, but if your windows leak cold air in to the house, you're going to be uncomfortable and waste money.0 -
\"At that elbow is an air vent- working? not sure.\"
This is very important. Even if your main is only 26 feet long I'd still vent it with a Gorton #2 since so many radiators are connected at extreme ends of the main. If the length is different, post it here. Also you need to insulate those pipes. Do this much and see how well it works.
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thanks everyone!
> The hissing is not
> normal. From my recent experience at my house,
> this sounds to me like you need main vents or
> yours don't work right. You'll want Gorton 1s or
> 2s for your main vents, someone can help you
> figure out how many and which type you need. Do
> you only have one main (this 26 ft. 2.5 inch
> pipe?)
Yes, I have one main. the boiler and two radiator risers (back of house) are at one end, while down the other end of the main (26ft away) are the remaining two risers for the radiators at the front of the house. the one with the longest distace from the boiler (i.e. 26ft main + 2nd story up) is the one that is cold.
I've attached a photo of what the end of the main looks like.
> If you do not have main vents, your
> system will not heat in a balanced fashion from
> my experience. Main vents make a drastic
> difference in how well a steam radiator system
> run by gas/oil functions.
Closeup photo of main vent at elbow also attached. how do I get a gorton #1 or #2 on there? I'm thinking I'll need to hire a pro to get one installed.
I was off on my radiator estimates. Here's a picture of the radiator - I guess it should be tube type? 4 tubes, but only 5" deep.
First floor radiators:
1a) 5 ft from furnace/main
27" wide, 26" high, 5" deep
1 column, 16 sections. (so 37.3 EDR?)
1b) 10ft from far end of main
34" wide, 26" high, 5" deep
1 column and 20 sections (46.6 EDR)
2nd floor radiators:
2a) 16ft from furnace/main
27" wide, 25" high, 5" deep
1 column 16 sections (same as 1a - 37.3 EDR)
2b) 21ft from fartest end of
main 34" wide, 25" high, 5" deep
1 column 20 sections (same as 1b - 46.6 EDR)
> Also check your
> pressuretrol to ensure it is set to .5 cut-in and
> 1 on the DIFFerential (must take cover off
> genreally to see this)
here's where my knowlege hits its limit... which is the pressuretrol?
I'll definitely look into the insulation.
Also, can anyone tell me if I should be majorly concerned about this right here?
Larger photos can be found here:
Allan's heating system0 -
pics
Thanks for the pictures. Yes, you have corto (tube) style radiators. The picture you showed is 4-tube, not sure the height from the picture, and you'd have to count the columns.
Resend your # of tubes, heights, # of columns for each radiator so we can calcuate the right EDR to figure out the appropriate vents once your main has the right vent on it.
Your main vent looks like garbage and most likely doesn't even work, you need a Gorton 2 installed properly. Best way to install a Gorton 2 would be I believe at least 12 inches back from the end of the main and up at least 6 inches to prevent it from
getting killed by a water hammer. (Dan has text on the site telling you exactly where it would be a perfect world)
I wasn't so lucky in my flexibility, so I went with 6 inches up, but didn't get 12 inches+ from the back. It works fine and I'm willing to take the risk that a watter hammer may take out my main vent one day.
You can buy Gorton 2s from a good plumbing supply store or online at pexsupply and statesupply if none of yours carry them.
What is the white thing in the picture? That could be your pressuretrol, but it looks nothing like mine. Perhaps one of the experts knows.0 -
I did remeasure them...
1a) 5 ft from furnace/main 27" wide, 26" high, 5" deep 1 column, 16 sections. (so 37.3 EDR?)
1b) 10ft from far end of main 34" wide, 26" high, 5" deep 1 column and 20 sections (46.6 EDR)
2nd floor radiators:
2a) 16ft from furnace/main 27" wide, 25" high, 5" deep 1 column 16 sections (same as 1a - 37.3 EDR)
2b) 21ft from fartest end of
main 34" wide, 25" high, 5" deep 1 column 20 sections (same as 1b - 46.6 EDR)
0 -
1a) 5 ft from furnace/main 27" wide, 26" high, 5" deep 1 column, 16 sections. (so 37.3 EDR?)
>> If they all look like your picture from the side, they're all 4 tube.
4-tube 26" high is 2.75 EDR per section * 16 = 44 EDR
1b) 10ft from far end of main 34" wide, 26" high, 5" deep 1 column and 20 sections (46.6 EDR)
>> 2.75 * 20 = 55 EDR
2nd floor radiators:
2a) 16ft from furnace/main 27" wide, 25" high, 5" deep 1 column 16 sections (same as 1a - 37.3 EDR)
>> 2.75 * 16 (assuming 26" high) = 44 EDR
2b) 21ft from fartest end of
main 34" wide, 25" high, 5" deep 1 column 20 sections (same as 1b - 46.6 EDR)
>> 20 * 2.75 = 55 EDR
Based on this information, I would Gorton C's on the majority of these radiators. I'd have to do more math to see if your largest radiator needs a Gorton D or not.
None of this is going to help much though until you get a better main vent / properly installed. In addition, insulating your mains will protect you from losing all your heat in the basement.0 -
Looks like a White Rodgers pressuretrol or high limit. See this one.
Mine is used as a high limit, not as a pressuretrol. The boiler is over 300,000 BTU so a 2nd high limit is required.0 -
white thing photos
White thing:
back of white thing:
what's this?:
0 -
You're running at 5.5 lbs. of pressure? What is the differential set at? You should get someone to look at this. Depending on what your cut-in is set at, it is possible that your radiator vent is not "dropping away" or opening up as the steam cycles. You should be at about 1/2 lb. cut-in and 1.5lb. cutout. I think that WR dial shows the cutout and the differential is subtractive.0 -
\"what's this?\"
"What's this?" -- That is your safety relief valve. Very important, do not ever plug. If it 'leaks', it means there's a problem in the boiler causing it to overpressurize.0 -
Welllll.......
looks like someone put a radiator vent on the end of your main. You may not have room on the ell to pipe in a Gorton #2, but you can have someone drill and tap a 1/2" pipe-thread hole in the side of the last tee on the main. This will accomodate the Gorton #2.
The radiator in the photo is not a "large-tube" type like the Corto- it's a "small-tube" one like the Burnham Slenderized. You can find the ratings in Dan's book "E.D.R."
The tall rectangular gray box to the left of the gauge is the pressuretrol. It's a White-Rodgers rather than a Honeywell.
The rust was probably caused by water spraying from the low-water cutoff drain. The current LWCO drain setup is not ideal, I'd have it replaced with the 14-B which is a huge ball valve with a yellow handle, and does a better job of flushing.
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Welllll.......
looks like someone put a radiator vent on the end of your main. You may not have room on the ell to pipe in a Gorton #2, but you can have someone drill and tap a 1/2" pipe-thread hole in the side of the last tee on the main. This will accomodate the Gorton #2.
The radiator in the photo is not a "large-tube" type like the Corto- it's a "small-tube" one like the Burnham Slenderized. You can find the ratings in Dan's book "E.D.R."
The tall rectangular gray box to the left of the gauge is the pressuretrol. It's a White-Rodgers rather than a Honeywell.
The rust was probably caused by water spraying from the low-water cutoff drain. The current LWCO drain setup is not ideal, I'd have it replaced with the #14-B which is a huge ball valve with a yellow handle, and does a better job of flushing.
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5.5 lbs pressure?
I didn't think so. Last time I was downstairs when the boiler was firing, it looked like I was only at 1psi... but then I didn't watch it the whole time so I don't know if that was right at the beginning of it firing or in the middle...
I had a keyspan service plan the past 2 years, and had technicians come for the annual 'checkup' but they never said anything but "flush the water once a week"
here are photos of the pressuretrol w/o the cover:
0 -
pressuretrol settings...
Not sure if you can see via the photos... the top dial says "1st DIFF"
If the differential is subtractive... I should change the top dial to "1" and the bottom dial to "1.5"?0 -
You could try it and see. Also, you could go to their web site with the model # and see if it is subtractive:
http://www.white-rodgers.com/
I am assuming it is because the setting is so high. The one on my boiler is.0 -
website no help.
I'll just experiment with the setting and see. how should the boiler behave if I change the settings to cut-in at 0.5 and cutout at 1.5?
Your search for 1204-5 returned the following item(s):
Description of Model Number Searched:
Steam Pressure Control
Suggested Replacement: None
White-Rodgers has no suggested replacement for this item.
You must contact the manufacturer of the equipment it was used on for a suggested replacement or retrofit.
0 -
insulation
I've gone out and purchased insulation for as much exposed pipe as I can... not cheap, this stuff.
The pressuretrol I've switched to 1.5 with a diff of 1, assuming it's subtractive - cutoff at 1.5 and cut-in at .5.
the main _is_ 26ft. there are two radiators connected to that end of the main. I will need a pro to install a #2 (or is a #1 enough?) for me...0 -
Ya, just reset it and see how it goes.0 -
26 ft of 2&1/2" main is about .88 cu. ft. One No. 1 would be too little. Put in at least 2 - No. 1's or better yet a No. 2.0 -
Super. Let us know how it goes, and if you get that far radiator to heat up.0 -
> looks like someone put a radiator vent on the end
> of your main. You may not have room on the ell to
> pipe in a Gorton #2, but you can have someone
> drill and tap a 1/2" pipe-thread hole in the side
> of the last tee on the main. This will accomodate
> the Gorton #2.
>
> The radiator in the photo is
> not a "large-tube" type like the Corto- it's a
> "small-tube" one like the Burnham Slenderized.
> You can find the ratings in Dan's book "E.D.R."
> The tall rectangular gray box to the left of the
> gauge is the pressuretrol. It's a White-Rodgers
> rather than a Honeywell.
>
> The rust was
> probably caused by water spraying from the
> low-water cutoff drain. The current LWCO drain
> setup is not ideal, I'd have it replaced with the
> #14-B which is a huge ball valve with a yellow
> handle, and does a better job of flushing.
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 367&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
0
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