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Whats a better boiler

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Ron Schroeder
Ron Schroeder Member Posts: 995
in THE MAIN WALL
Hi joe,

It's not a problem for a cold start boiler if the boiler drops below the condensation point AFTER THE BURNER SHUTS OFF. Also, it's not a problem as it warms up as long as it gets above the condensation point for a couple of minutes at the end each heat cycle.

Comments

  • joe_66
    joe_66 Member Posts: 30
    low mass vs. high mass

    I have several estimates on boilers. The two I have come down to are a Viessmann and a Energy Kinetics.Energy Kinetics guy says his boiler is best because it only has 2.4 gallons of water 190,000 MBH.Viessmann guy said one of the great things about Viessman is the 52.6 gallons 189,000MBH.
  • soot_seeker_2
    soot_seeker_2 Member Posts: 228


    The best boiler is the one thats properly sized,what's the heat loss of the house?
  • PG
    PG Member Posts: 128


    how many is "several"?
  • J.C.A._3
    J.C.A._3 Member Posts: 2,980
    Need more to go on....

    What are your heating needs?

    Opinions will be different for different system needs. Sounds like you're going with oil in any case, and to better answer your question, we need more specifis. Chris
  • joe_66
    joe_66 Member Posts: 30


    Five/connected load is about 168,000 BTUH with aprox 20,000 to come/my need is to heat my home
  • joe_66
    joe_66 Member Posts: 30


    Specificly low mass vs. high Viessmann vs. Energy Kinetics pros and cons of 2.4 gallons vs.52.6
  • J.C.A._3
    J.C.A._3 Member Posts: 2,980
    What ...

    Is the transfer medium being heated? Radiators, baseboard, cast iron baseboard, convectors, radiant, high mass, low mass, etc. Chris
  • joe_66
    joe_66 Member Posts: 30


    copper tube aluminum fin baseboard now it may all become hydro with two radiant zones or main house stays bb addition will get hydro and radiant or addition gets bb and radiant.Viessmann guy says EK boiler is subject to thermal shock,condensating,and oil guys dont like it or clean it well.
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Sounds like a large Vitola...

    ... both brands have their adherants. Personally, I found the literature from EK to be a bit jarring though they have a point re: the issues with AFUE ratings not telling the whole story.

    A well-insulated high mass boiler seems like the best choice for single-stage residential oil boilers but there are plenty of folk who prefer low-mass systems. Ultimately, I liked the Vitola better and I have one in our house. It can handle the low return temperatures of RFH systems w/o any protection (50°F and up), offers very good insulation, and the stack temperatures go about as low as it gets w/o condensation.
  • brucewo1b
    brucewo1b Member Posts: 638


    Real tough to clean, even I can figure it out. Trouble shooting can be a bit disconcerting at first but it can be done.

    http://www.energykinetics.com/pdf/TuneUpOilFront.pdf
  • tom_49
    tom_49 Member Posts: 267


    I have never worked on or installed an EK. I do have a vitola in my house.

    Its 33o out and my Vitola is runnin at at a toasty 113o w/ costant circ,bb,1 zone rfh. House is 70o ( always ).

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    A matter of preference

    My MPO boiler is purring along here with my four zones of baseboard and indirect heater. The temperature here presently is 31°F and the boiler is maintaining 125°F water via Tekmar Reset Control. No concern about condensation due to the simple internal blending. You can still get the benefits of operating at lower temperatures and higher comfort levels without having to spend a ton of money on Euro technology.

    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • Richard_4
    Richard_4 Member Posts: 40
    THERMAL SHOCK

    and The viessman guy does not know anything about the Energy Kinetics boiler. you can not shock this boiler,it has a built in bypass keeping return temp at 140 min. also, this lo mass boiler does not short cycle, the burner runs only to process heat or hot water then shuts down. the stack temp runs aprox 325-350 keeping the chimney dry.The E.K boilers are very to service, four 1/2 x 13 nuts removed and heat exchanger is completly open for cleaning and inspection, and what do you find when door is opened? no soot, clean as if she were burning gas.Thats why the oil guys( not certified techs.) would say that they do not like them, black soot =$$$ more oil. We have installed and serviced EK boilers for eight years and never had any major problems or customer complaints. we have recieven many praises with thankfull wallets, three of our smart customers saved 1000 gallons of liquid gold #2 in one year. Richardson
  • Ron Schroeder
    Ron Schroeder Member Posts: 995


    For the same steady state efficiency, a low mass boiler and a buffer tank will use less fuel than a high mass boiler when the loads are less than the capacity of the boiler. Sometimes a lot less fuel.

    Ron
  • joe_66
    joe_66 Member Posts: 30
    MPO

    how does blending help a boiler thats maintaining a temp below the dew point?
  • joe_66
    joe_66 Member Posts: 30
    condensation

    does the EK not drop below 140 when nothing calls, does it not condensate then.and EK says the boiler usually reaches temp in 90 seconds or less, how long does it take for steady combustion.and what if the feed temp only needs to be 130 or less.why is EK not using an outdoor reset
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Good Question

    What is happening inside is that the cooler return water is warmed up internally by blending hotter water from the rear section by an internal return side injection nozzle and venturi principle. This keeps the boiler warmer internally. Add to that a boiler bypass and I can operate with 120°F or so system water temperature without condensing the boiler and still bring 100°F water back to the boiler.

    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • none_2
    none_2 Member Posts: 15
    worry more about how you pipe/control

    everyone seems to get wrapped up with the AFUE rating and relating it to efficieny. Whether you have the vitola an MPO (which is a more expensive Vitorond 100 viessmann) or a 55 gallon drum, its all about piping and controls. Most of the higher end oil boilers now run lower water temps - stack temps and are insulated very well. The goal here is to get the system designed to fit your heating needs I.E. baseboard/hydro/radiant and control the system based on that. I've seen to many people buy what they consider high efficient boilers, then pipe them the old convential way with no outdoor reset or priority. To the point, I think both boilers have there advantages, just make sure its installed and controled properly. From what I've seen on this site, there are a ton of qaulified guys out there that do a great job at this. (avoid the ones who dont)
  • mario & luigi
    mario & luigi Member Posts: 11


    don't get either one get a pensotti blue line and save lots of oil
  • Rodney Summers
    Rodney Summers Member Posts: 748
    with only 2 gal of water

    in the boiler, you can get the EK up over 120 degrees very quickly. I think the energy manager holds off running the pump until it reaches min temp. It will cycle a great deal so adding outdoor reset would only make it worse. Post purging after the burner fires cools the boiler so it will run for a few minutes at the next heat call, keeping the boiler and chimney dry.
  • Will_5
    Will_5 Member Posts: 85
    Vitorond Correction

    You can't really compare the Vitorond 100 and the MPO, the VR100 is a triple-pass, but has no low temp return protection. The Vitorond 200 operates on a similar priciple to the MPO with internal injecion and the VR200 is quite a bit more.
  • none_2
    none_2 Member Posts: 15
    like I said its about piping

    understand your point, although it cost us about $18.00 in material for our own protection loop with the 100. These concepts aren't as new as everyone thinks, just in North America.
  • none_2
    none_2 Member Posts: 15
    bump

    bump
  • Ron Schroeder
    Ron Schroeder Member Posts: 995


    Hi Joe,

    Even a low mass boiler like the EK can benifit from measures that reduce the number of cycles and lengthen the runtime. With enough thermal mass in the system, proper differential and/or a buffer tank, the EK could easily do outdoor reset for more fuel savings. Less cycling reduces wear and tear on the burner and reduces emissions too.
  • Rodney Summers
    Rodney Summers Member Posts: 748
    I agree Ron

    But EK shot me down on this board once when I asked about outdoor reset on their system. They always push the booster tank over an indirect. Maybe longer run cycles would be perceived as wasting energy in their sales stratagy to the unknowledged public.
  • Ron Schroeder
    Ron Schroeder Member Posts: 995


    Hi Joe,

    They might not reccomend reset since their control doesn't support it. With low mass boilers, it is harder to properly design a system with reset. It usually requires a buffer tank and carefull control to stay above the minimum flows. An improper design could damage the boiler.

    I am not sure why they push the booster tank and heat exchanger over an indirect. The tank may be cheaper but the extra pump (bronze) and heat exchanger is expensive.
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