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Di-electric unions . . . culpable???

Couderay
Couderay Member Posts: 314
in THE MAIN WALL
Ah the joys of them unions.Been installed on my mothers hot water heater since 1993 and no problems.Installed them on my mothers newly piped boiler last year 3 total one would not stop leaking other two are fine. Have four on my boiler up north, two seasons now so far so good.Although after firing for a couple of days I had to tweak them a few times. Neighbor goes once a week when I'm not there and all is good.My opinion on them, definately, not the most reliable threaded joint around. If your worried about electrolysis you can use any thing brass (valve,brass union)instead of a di-electric union.

Comments

  • Andruid_2
    Andruid_2 Member Posts: 42
    Di-electric unions . . . culpable???

    This morning, I was informed that the night before, a co-worker had to perform an emergency service call on one of my jobs. A di-electric union had leaked all over the mechanical room floor. I am very meticulous about my jobs, so this was a disturbing event (besides the ridicule given to me by my superior). It is remotely possible though not at all probable that I forgot to tighten down the union, but the system has been running for months with no leak whatsoever. Has anyone ever seen a di-electric union that had 'loosened itself'? I have a friend that says he NEVER uses di-electric unions. If di-electric unions DO occasionally 'loosen themselves', then I must find an alternative. What are the alternatives?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    The alternative is ..........

    don't use them at all .

    Sorry to hear about the mess . And I'm more sorry to hear about the ridicule from your superior . Believe me , I can empathize .

    What were the dialectrics used on ? If it was a closed hot water heat system I would strongly suggest doing away with them altogether . I've been installing boilers almost 21 years and I've never used one , and I've never seen one used on these boilers .

    I think using them on domestic water is questionable too . Sure we change out many leaky heaters . But I can bet the use of dialectrics would have made little to no difference in the leakers .

    I know I've seen brass and steel coupling loosen once they got hit with hot water or steam . I'm sure the same thing can happen with dialectrics . Keep up the good fight Andruid .


  • Andruid_2
    Andruid_2 Member Posts: 42
    It's installed on a solar collection loop

    The offending di-electric union was installed on a brass tee which in turn was installed on a steel nipple coming from a heat exchanger in a dual exchanger storage tank. The solar loop it is part of is pressurized to 33psi.
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
    onions

    ANY union can loosen . vibration and other natural phenonima. that is the reason they are prohibited on gas piping or sanitary waste & vent lines. flanges work well .
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,882
    Unions

    are prohibited on "gas piping" ?????

    You want to elaborate on that Bob ?

    Scott

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  • jackchips_2
    jackchips_2 Member Posts: 1,337
    They used to be

    banned here in Mass, Scott but the code has been changed.

    I found this out while doing inspections. I had a contractor remove one even after he told me they were approved. A few days later I was speaking to another inspector and he told me they have been allowed for a number of years. I went to the site and apologized to the plumber.

    I'm with Bob on the reasons they were not allowed. My memory tells me they were only accepted in emergency situations and had to be "pinned" so they would not vibrate loose.

    Still learning.

    Jack
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,882
    Jack

    Your talking about using them in the system as compared to at the applaince correct ?

    I understand about "pinning" them and not allowed in the middle of the system but the post above made it appear they where "not allowed" on gas piping.

    I understand the confusion.

    Scott

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  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
    ELABORATION

    On gas piping we use left& right couplings & flange unions because as i stated earlier unions loosen & leak due to vibration et al. if you get a gas leak in a wall or ceiling you will most probably need a new building due to the explosion that leveled the one that had a union on its former gas line. get the picture ? the final connections to the appliances are made with a union for a solid piping connection & approved flexible connector for common residential gas ranges etc. most licensed plumbers are aware of these regulations since they have been on the books for about a hundred years. i am refering to the new york city code , some rural localities have more lenient codes or no codes at all. they probably also have more explosions . i hope that clarifies my point on the unions. now di-electric unions are a whole different story . we could do a two hundred thread discussion on the pro's & con's of them. again i prefer flanges.
  • Ray_13
    Ray_13 Member Posts: 15


  • Ray_13
    Ray_13 Member Posts: 15
    Di-electric

    I had a Bock 50CT in action for 10 months, and one of the unions leaked like crazy -- never again!
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,882
    Thanks for clearing that up Bob

    We have the same codes as you can read in my post to Jack. Yours simply said they could'nt be used in a gas system and others could be confused by the statement. I was playing devils advocate.

    I hav'nt seen a left and right hand coupling at a supply house for .... ever. These are still used in NY ?

    Scott

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  • Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2
    Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2 Member Posts: 377
    Ka-BOOM!

    A house near here disappeared in a ka-BOOM this past week. Not from a union, it was a leak in a transmission line behind the home that leaked. Completely leveled the place. No one was home, so no bodies.

    Another 400K condo under construction went up in flames when one of the drywallers propane heaters leaked and its tank went ka-BOOM.

    Now, as for the union issue....

    Every appliance hard-piped - furnace, water heater, boiler, etc... has long been required to incorporate a union in connection. Beats picking up the appliance and spinning it onto the gas line! Gas vlv; nipple; union; nipple; Tee; nipple (4" used to be required here); cap - back to Tee: nipple to gas valve. In my 38-years in the trades, I can't recall a single home in our area going ka-BOOM because of a failed union joint.

    What scares me? The local gas co stopped inspecting gas lines a few years ago. They leave a tag on the gas meter now assigning full responsibility to anyone adding gas lines. No license, no permit, no insprection - anybody can do the work. No more dial-test, no pressure test, no test at all.

    Now, do di-elec unions present a leak potential? Seen lots of them that did or were actively leaking. Whole different animal.
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
    more union blah

    Yes ,we still use left & rights in n.y.c. Scott. the bldg. dept. is adopting a new national code soon so that could possibly change. i have not checked . the practice of pinning or center-punching unions is a little boot-leg for me. scary too. flanges are my choice. steel ,that is--not cast iron ! also a bit pricey.
  • Chris_82
    Chris_82 Member Posts: 321
    Flanges,...

    Their is n't any approved residential flange for gas? Unions are a good thing they make plumbing possable in this modern age. And set a living wage for the rest of us. Oviously your are spreading a misconception, perhaps you should learn a little before you open your mouth. Confucious.
  • Chris_82
    Chris_82 Member Posts: 321
    Get the picture?

    Unions have and are accepted in N.Y. (City) and have been for longer than I have been around...Why are you purposly misleading people? There are a few restrictions as to their location, such as behind walls, but they have been in use for over a hundred years? Flanges are strictly prohibited, and on larger gas lines like the one we just speced out downtown all gas lines over 3" are all welded...AND N.Y. has no intention of adopting some mythical national code, N.Y. still maintains a more ridgid code than any national code and has done so since the biginning before there was any code!!!
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
    misinformed worker

    i definitely get the picture, chris. you are obviously not a lic. nyc plmb. or you would understand & concur with my detailed statement.in any case you are 100% wrong on all counts . no need for me to further clarify anything to you because you would not get it. get a copy of the code book & read it. if you do not understand it get an expert to explain it to you. p.s. the code SHALL be changed & soon. consider this discussion closed. bob young lic. # 685
  • Chris_82
    Chris_82 Member Posts: 321


    Perhaps you would post the relevant section of the code for us, rather than jumbing up and down...

    and say hi to zabrosky for me!

    O'h it's section 16...
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
    strike two--wrong again

    P115.6 is the correct section. take a course from mechanics institute or manny troise. you need code interpretation as i suspected from the beginning. you are in the wrong section of the code. you will never pass any license test until you learn correctly. not everyone can read a book correctly WITHOUT ASSISTANCE. that is why we have schools & TEACHERS keep trying & someday maybe you can discuss these issues with the leaders of the industry. you never know.be patient learning takes time. sometimes it is very difficult for a beginner to understand the code.
  • mikea23
    mikea23 Member Posts: 224
    chris

    NYC code is not more ridgid. Its more like in the stone age and not keeping up with new building materials. No pex no PVC waste lines no csst. The NYC code only protects one thing UNION hours. This antiqated code just costs us time and money. Hopefully one day the city will stand up to the local.
    MIKE A
  • Chris_82
    Chris_82 Member Posts: 321
    mike,...

    http://home2.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/pdf/local_law_99_05.pdf

    the above link are the proposed changes to take effect july 1, 2007 unions are allowed...and it is the local 1 that ensures that you have health insurance, a living wage, and it is a serious crime to hire plumbers in the city without some work comp insurance. It wasent always this way and it is because of the unions efforts we get the wage we do. It isn't always about protecting hours as you indicate but about protecting our trade, and the saftey of those around us. Despite the claims of those that rush inferior products to market. wheather you like it or not, weather you realize it or not... the union has benifited YOU
  • Chris_82
    Chris_82 Member Posts: 321
    Bob,...

    I realize the difficulty in interperting the code, which is why no one else has responded, perhaps once again you could post the relevant sections, for everyones benifit?
  • mikea23
    mikea23 Member Posts: 224
    CHRIS

    True it has helped and there was a time and place when it was needed. But in today market with all of us fighting over qualified mechanics the market regulates itself. I would have no employes or no good employees if I where not to give insurance. And our rates are dictated by supply and demand all of us are overworked and understaffed and our prices have risen from that. That is how America should be.

    How can a union have a stroghold on an industry. If the union was a business (or classified as one like it should be) the ACLU and antitrust lawyers would have put them out long ago.

    The unions played a big roll in our industry and definetly in NY and did a good job years ago but today lets be honest they only cost us more money.

    Years ago the union had great training programs and that atracted people to our industry. Today they are more like a place that people go to socialize. The union today is all politics if a member has a legitimate gripe but doesnt play the game he just ends up on the unemployment line. All of us are paying for this. Just look at the auto industry GM spends over 4K dollars of every vehicle it builds to retired employee benifets. Ford spends almost 4K as does chrysler.

    Hopefully one day we will resolve this but the way things are going probly not in my lifetime.

    Mike A
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
    chris

    zabrosky been dead 25 years . got killed in a gas explosion. forgot to tighten a union & lit up a lucky strike. adios amigo.
  • Chris_82
    Chris_82 Member Posts: 321
    So ...

    you can huff and puff but why not post the relevant section of the City code???? What kind of gasket do you use with those "flanges" by the way????

    Or are you just being so secritive about the code you just don't want to share?
  • Chris_82
    Chris_82 Member Posts: 321
    It is just that the N.Y. City Code,...

    is in a state of transition and a lot of misleading info is being passed back and forth. The union, Local 1 has got a firm grasp on the subject and offers free code seminars; no obligation, no hassle, and as a matter of fact could care less if you’re not union or you are, to tell ya the truth. But it is NOT a requirement that you have a city license as a Journeyman, to work in the city. It is a requirement that you have a license. And I want to point out that much of the plumbing code is as far as I am concerned changing to a more plastic and liberal code that is not in the consumers best interests. If there is a cheaper way to do something, and I don't mean money wise the few code changes coming up will allow them. Everyone seems to have jumped on the Unions back on this issue, but the Union has been holding the line on our industry as far as safety, and a tradition of “Protecting the Health of the Community.” If you feel it was just a simple matter of protecting their turf or racking up hours, I feel sorry for you and it means you have taken the time to be swayed by ignorance and the profit motives of the few. Additionally for those employers that demand shortcuts in safety and materials, many have tried but most every union member will walk away from a job, and this happens all the time, and the Union does NOT reimburse that member for walking off a job, but at least he/ she can sleep at night knowing they have done the right thing for the community. There is no pressuring to take short cuts, because it doesn’t work. Imagine a world where you can count on everyone doing the best that they can and you can see why most large jobs are preferred to go Union, by everyone! It’s the better way; it’s the safe way and beneficial way for our community. Additionally considering the cost of overhead to do business, allowing plastic and tying to justify it by labor savings is a ridiculous argument. It only takes a comparatively slightly longer time to do it right. The difference in man hours is very slight, certainly not significant enough to balance the manufacturers’ claims of savings by using their products. The other side of the story...
  • jackchips_2
    jackchips_2 Member Posts: 1,337
    I wish

    a few had walked away from the Big Dig, Chris.

    Jack
  • Chris_82
    Chris_82 Member Posts: 321
    Ditto,...

    I agree for once,

    Trouble is the roof anchors are the same in all the tunnells,O'H thats worth repeating "they are all the same" ! except the road that goes to the airport. Putting in 1 1/2 epoxy sheilds it was reccomended that you only drill about 20-30 holes, depending upon material, modern told the iorn workers to do it or they were laid off, they even developed a way to disable the bits after the reccomended time, but Modern was constantly playing games, many left rather than put up with Modern, but Modern ran midnight crews made up of laborers. This tweaked the iron workers during the day but not many stood up to Modern. And I'm limiting this observation to just the latest stuff to make the news. It is easier to be or have 20 20 hindsight but many plumbers took a stand on many issues, they were a real pain in the butt and you would have been proud of them.
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