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Eddy Vacuum/Vapor Systems
Mi39ke
Member Posts: 44
Thanks much, LBE.
Will post pics if I can figure out how. Always wanted to, so now is the time to learn! Pics are at the office...I am at play.
I thought the Paul was the same as the Eddy as well. The Hoffmann catalog says it (the Paul) is a thermostatic valve, I think, so it made me think it was different than the Eddy (an orifice valve?).
Love the idea of zoning and hoovering (vacuumming). I think my tech mentioned this as well. Called my local supplier this morning and they don't have small residential vacuum pumps available. Do you know of any?
Will get the machinist info out as well...
Mi39ke
Will post pics if I can figure out how. Always wanted to, so now is the time to learn! Pics are at the office...I am at play.
I thought the Paul was the same as the Eddy as well. The Hoffmann catalog says it (the Paul) is a thermostatic valve, I think, so it made me think it was different than the Eddy (an orifice valve?).
Love the idea of zoning and hoovering (vacuumming). I think my tech mentioned this as well. Called my local supplier this morning and they don't have small residential vacuum pumps available. Do you know of any?
Will get the machinist info out as well...
Mi39ke
0
Comments
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Eddy Vacuum/Vapor Systems
We recently ran into a system with a couple of quirks, it seems. Something we haven't seen before. Maybe someone could enlighten us, as we live in the glacier rock of Wisconsin, not the mighty East of Steam Central.
One pipe steam. The vents are at midpoint or so on the radiators. 3/8" steel lines from each rad vent to a central, homemade canister with a TRANE #2 air vent on top. A Paul system? I don't think so. No evidence of any exhauster situation in the basement. The vents on the rads are labeled "Eddy," according to my techinician. There seem to be "Paul" valves on each live steam return being used as crossover steam traps to the dry return system which connects to the #2 TRANE.
The "Eddy" valves have orifices. I don't know if they are sized per radiator. Might find this out tomorrow. It does still have a vacuum pressure gauge on the replacement 1950's or so era boiler. We are replacing the failed pressuretrol with a vaporstat tomorrow, as the TRANE #2 was spitting as we climbed to over 2 PSI! The homeowner has seen the pressure gauge dip into a vacuum now and again.
Homeowner owns Dan's books, of course, so they really want us to replace these "Eddy" vents or valves and restore the system of old. No vendor can be found, but we met a machinist who will make us any kind of Eddy oddity at the ASHRAE show.
Anyone know of any "Eddy" radiator vent replacements?
Anyone know the best way of resurrecting this type of system? I guess we could simplify things and make it a one-pipe with standard rad vents, cap the vent lines and install standard main vents...but the homeowner might be interested in something better!
Regards,
Mi39ke0 -
Eddie/Paul
Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the Eddy vents and the Paul vents are one and the same. Hoffman still makes Paul vents, so they should work just fine.
The "return lines" from those vents can go to a vacuum pump. Or, they can go into the chimney flue where a vacuum is created by the draft. Or they can, as some manufacturers suggested, just go to a vent in the basement. The only advantage without a vacuum source was to eliminate the foul air and spitting associated with one-pipe radiator vents.
Find out which Eddy vents dont work and replace them with the Hoffman Paul Vents. Then put a nicely sized main vent on that "receiver" can.
Really want to have fun? Hook that receiver up to a vacuum pump and watch the steam distribution increase from perhaps fifteen minutes to 30 seconds! Wow!!
Run those lines to a vacuum manifold with zone valves and you've got zoned steam!
Hay, post some pictures, please, please, please! And tell us who that machinist is. We've got work for him!
Long Beach Ed0 -
The Eddy system
was Wisconsin's claim to steam fame if I remember correctly. I have some books or magazines with Eddy info somewhere, if I can find them I'll post them.
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> Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the Eddy
> vents and the Paul vents are one and the same.
> Hoffman still makes Paul vents, so they should
> work just fine.
>
> The "return lines" from
> those vents can go to a vacuum pump. Or, they
> can go into the chimney flue where a vacuum is
> created by the draft. Or they can, as some
> manufacturers suggested, just go to a vent in the
> basement. The only advantage without a vacuum
> source was to eliminate the foul air and spitting
> associated with one-pipe radiator vents.
> Find out which Eddy vents dont work and replace
> them with the Hoffman Paul Vents. Then put a
> nicely sized main vent on that "receiver" can.
> Really want to have fun? Hook that receiver up
> to a vacuum pump and watch the steam distribution
> increase from perhaps fifteen minutes to 30
> seconds! Wow!!
>
> Run those lines to a vacuum
> manifold with zone valves and you've got zoned
> steam!
>
> Hay, post some pictures, please,
> please, please! And tell us who that machinist
> is. We've got work for him!
>
> Long Beach Ed
0 -
Interesting...
> was Wisconsin's claim to steam fame if I remember
> correctly. I have some books or magazines with
> Eddy info somewhere, if I can find them I'll post
> them.
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 367&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
0 -
Wisco Steamers
Cool, Steamhead.
All my old books have no mention of the Eddy. Would love to hear the tale of Wisconsin Steam, if you have it.
Thanks,
Mi39ke0 -
Paul Vents
Mike,
The Paul vents have an orafice too, though its not adjustable. They are thermostatic, just like a regular steam vent or actually quite like a trap. I don't know what was inside the Eddy ones. I doubt there would have been anything adjustable, as with vacuum the radiators fill with steam almost instantly, so any metering of the flow really wouldn't make much sense.
Spend a few minutes and see if you can pigure out the photo thing. Would love to see this.
I installed a Paul system in my place. No, there aren't any small commercial vacuum pumps for heating around. You have to find something on ebay.
Long Beach Ed0 -
LBE
Thanks for the information, Ed. Appreciate it.
Will try to attach a couple pics to this note.
Michael Ward0 -
Here's what I have
From 1923. Sorry, no drawings.
Q. How does the Eddy vacuum system operate?
A. The Eddy system makes use of a combined receiver tank, exhausing and vacuum valve. The system is particularly an air line system, the air lines being installed in the usual manner.
Q. Are air valves used with this system?
A. Air valves are not used. In place of air valves a small applicance known as a retarder is introduced into the air vent opening of each radiator and the air line is connected from the bottom of each radiator.
Q. How is the vacuum produced which operates the system?
A. By the condensation of steam, the exhausting and vacuum valve sealing the system to the atmosphere and preventing the return of air into the system after it has once been exhausted. This operation is entirely automatic. It may be operated with steam or vapor at a temperature of 160 degrees or at a pressure of two pounds or more if desired. The range of temperature obtained in its operation makes the system particularly serviceable.Retired and loving it.0 -
Eddie/Paul
That vent on the crossover is the Hoffman Vents that are available today. They close when steam hits them. That other thing, the Eddy vent seems like it may just have an orafice in it so steam flows through to the receiver (that can), condenses and draws a vacuum.
Apparently they had a vacuum vent on the receiver so air could not re-enter. They don't make vacuum vents anymore, but they come up on e-bay from time to time and can be found.
Open up one of those things Eddy things and see it there's anything thermostatic in it. I doubt there is.
How bout a picture of the receiver and its vent?
Those photos are great as is Dan's info. Thanks Dan.
Long Beach Ed0 -
Hoffman
still makes the 76 vacuum main vent, and that might work.
Or Mike could get a vacuum pump (not a vacuum condensate pump), plug it into the return lines and run it when the thermostat calls.Retired and loving it.0 -
Vacuum Pump
Webster used to have their pump go on with the burner and cut out at 5 - 8 ozs vacuum. Running it longer than that wouldn't hurt. You could actually just wire it in parallel with the burner. If the thermostat kept calling for heat after the radiators were full of steam, pressure would build, overcoming the vacuum and raising the steam temperature.
What's that tit on the end of the Eddy valve, a plug to clean the orafice?
Let's see that "receiver".
Long Beach Ed0 -
Vacuum pump
Are there any particular brands and/or types of vacuum pumps that work work well with this type of setup?
Thanks for all the great info Dan.0 -
DH
Thanks for the ideas and the old text, Dan. It all helps.
Michael Ward0 -
LBE
> Webster used to have their pump go on with the
> burner and cut out at 5 - 8 ozs vacuum. Running
> it longer than that wouldn't hurt. You could
> actually just wire it in parallel with the
> burner. If the thermostat kept calling for heat
> after the radiators were full of steam, pressure
> would build, overcoming the vacuum and raising
> the steam temperature.
>
> What's that tit on the
> end of the Eddy valve, a plug to clean the
> orafice?
>
> Let's see that "receiver".
>
> Long
> Beach Ed
0 -
LBE's Receiver
Yeah, the little nub is interesting. I haven't held the piece, but my tech has one from another customer of ours and he has been manufacturing a home-made body. All he needs is the orifice size and a better drill rig to somewhat model the valve, he thinks. Looks like the nub might be a cleaning port. Maybe I'll have the tech bring in the valve and I can photgraph it, innards and all.
Michael Ward0 -
Interesting thing...
So all the 3/8" return lines go into thetee that tops the 2" pipe and I presume the pipe on the bottom drips to the return?
Interesting stuff. I wonder if this really drew a vacuum without a pump. I suppose if the system was tight it would.
Long Beach Ed0 -
Tracer line trap
Here is an excerpt from a catalog that shows the vent/trap Armstrong has for installs on tracer lines that parallel pipes transporting something that has to be kept warm, of course steam is powerful and these tracer lines can be small and thus the trap is available with 1/4 and 3/8 connections.
These tracer lines physically look just like the Paul and Eddy air lines.
Seeing these things in the catalog made me think of you, Ed. Perhaps this is useful. I have not priced these, I have no idea whether Armstrong means to sell them for home heating applications, but they do contain the Silver nugget, which is standard stuff.
Nice system, Mike, please post more pictures (of the innards of the Eddy valve). None of us can ever have enough. Thanks for showing.
Indeed, having a system such as yours begs for the addition of a vacuum pump, eventually... Thus, it would be a shame to abandon the air lines at this point.
I don't have any best recommendations for an affordable and quiet home vacuum pump.0 -
That looks
like an old Trane vacuum vent. It had about the same capacity as the Hoffman #76 does now.
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The Problem
The problem I see with this setup is that it requires steam to reach the receiver and condense before it pulls a vacuum.
I presume these Eddy valves pass steam and it is expected to reach that 2-1/2" pipe where it condenses and this aids circulation into the radiators.
Now with a modern oil or gas burner, cycles are very short, with the thermostat often satisfied before the radiators fill with steam. So when the burner cycles off, steam hasn't reached the receiver so no vacuum is produced.
That's why this system screams out for a little vacuum pump.
Thanks, Christian for the page about the little traps. I wonder if they are cheap?
Long Beach Ed0 -
I wonder if they are expensive...
I just thought of one more vacuum pump option.
Do a set up just like the Moline ejector has. The systems that are widespread Chicago westward, the ones with the carrot shaped thing.
0 -
Exhauster
I'm working on an exhauster-tupe vacuum pump right now, modeled after a small Dunham pump made in the 1930's. There's no equivelant today that I know of.
Making a small square copper tank with a sight glass and a fill line. Water circulates from the tank through a venturi-type "exhauster" using a regular Taco circulator. The side connection on the venturi sucks in the vacuum.
It's quiet and isn't hurt by any blow-by steam or mung.
Long Beach Ed0 -
Interesting stuff, all
Wow, thanks for getting my brain energized a bit, guys.
Too much fun.
BTW, still looking for the machinist's card. Can't find my AHR goodie bag.
Best,
Michael Ward0
This discussion has been closed.
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