Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
Your opinions on dealing with apprentices?
Darin(in Michigan)
Member Posts: 90
I worked under a guy with thirty years experience. I was lucky because he was nice enough to take me aside and teach me a ton. I have a lot of respect for the guy to this day because he helped me to become what I am but one weekend after I had just started taking calls, he remarked on the number of calls I did. I started to feel good about myself until he told me if I ever did that many calls again, he'd be sure to bury me. He felt he had the office "trained" the way he wanted them. Even the hard working ones sometimes feel they can't win.
0
Comments
-
New or old school?
I had a first-year apprentice ride with me today, and it made me think back to when I was in his shoes (not so long ago, actually).
Veteran plumbers seem to have two schools of thought when it comes to training apprentices:
One school (let's call them "old school") works their helpers/apprentices very hard, both physically and mentally. Plumbing is a difficult trade, requiring strength and endurance. Some plumbers in this group actually seem to put their apprentices through a "hazing," maybe yelling at them, humiliating them when they make mistakes and putting pressure on them to "keep up" when they are trying to learn what seems like a million new things at once.
The other school (I'll call them "new school," for lack of a better term) sees it as their responsility to pass the trade on, and takes their role as mentor/teacher seriously. They tend to be more patient with their apprentices, and explain the hows and whys of what they are doing. They take the time to teach their apprentices, rather than trying to squeeze them for as much prodction as possible, because they are making a long-term investment in that person. They gradually give them more responsibility.
I have worked with plumbers from both schools. The journeyman I worked with my first six months was definitely old school. Although he was very difficult to work with and learn from, I did respect him as a plumber. I was very fortunate that my next employers were new school. I learned a great deal from them, both about plumbing and about customer service. They played a large part in helping me become the plumber I am today.
Some plumbers who are old school are that way simply because that's how they were taught. They may also figure that being tough on apprentices will weed out those who wouldn't make it in this difficult trade (and I can see that reasoning).
Although I have operated service trucks solo the last few years, if I did have an apprentice working with me regularly, I would like to think I would use the new school approach. Having worked under an old school plumber (and been humiliated in front of others by him), I can vouch that it's hard to learn when you're always worried about making a mistake.
When it comes to dealing with apprentices, which school do you fall under, and why?
-Ken0 -
whips work good!
never understood 'that' mentality of yelling at someone when they really don;t know better. are learning mistakes understood better with cussing, yelling and throwing 2x4's?
I'd walk off the job in a second!
0 -
Old VS New
Hatred blocks the learning process.0 -
apprentices
To me it depends on the apprentice,his willing to learn and work habits dictates on how I respond.0 -
"The beating's will continue until morale improves"
Seen near a timeclock at a previous employers.
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Talk about a timely post
Just yeaterday, I had to let a very good apprentice go. Breaks my damn heart.
Tried the easy approach, but that was seen as weakness on my part.
After going through at least half a dozen "kids" in the past couple years, I feel I can say that this new generation has NO true work ethic, and they expect everything to be handed to them.
An associate of mine is having better luck with immigrant help. Always on time, eager to learn, honest, hard working. All the same things WE were expected to be/do when we were kids.
Maybe i'm jaded. I worked for my Grandfather. He was relentless and tough. Looking back, i would have it no other way.
Getting tired of these kids nowadays. I put almost a year into the last one, only to be crapped on in the end.0 -
The GOLDEN RULE, rules !
Treat others as you would like to be treated.
I don't care how "green" you are, just show me the willingness to learn the trade, and I'll TEACH you.
I see both sides of this conflict, and will say that the new guys would rather work with me than the others, because they feel the LEARN something from me...even if it's a small something...they feel good having learned it.(Here's a small one from the training manuals that;anyone that has served our country has hopefully LEARNED) Praise in PUBLIC, scold when the situation is right...hopefully one on one.IN PRIVATE!
To belittle a guy in front of his "new co-workers", seems counterproductive to me.They will react in one way, and YOU will be the benefactor... if YOU treat them that way.
Call me "New Fashioned" if you like...but I'm looking at a dying breed. I'll do whatever I can to protect "the Herd", and make sure it flourishes. JMHO. Chris0 -
Some of the new guys that I've worked with out of trade school were pretty good. In fact they tried to do things by the book only to be shown by the a few of the so-called experienced guys ways to cut corners. To say that this new generation has no work ethic is quite a generalization. Most kids are going to college nowadays. I wish I did.0 -
huh?
I DID go to college. I CHOSE to come back to this trade after 9/11 and my losses associated with it.
IN MY EXPERIENCE, in MY AREA, everyone I have had experience with, is not the sort of person my Grandfather would hire. I believe he would call them "goldbrickers".
I call them useless.
And we are not talking about "bottom of the barrel" here. These have all been good boys from good families who, for some reason, chose to become "Real Boiler Men".
I have tried the "nice guy" approach, the "do unto others" approach. I refuse to become those who have tormented and hazed my generation, but I do feel that "tough love" would have benefitted these slackers better than "everybody wins" soccer and T-Ball. They truly feel the world owes them a living.
Respectfully, sir, I must disagree with your views on today's youth.
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"There was an error rendering this rich post.
0 -
Shame
At a boy Al I like your thoughts, and style. How you teach "DEPENDS" on the student. A little shaming, and hazing never hurt anyone.
Its hard to shame young men these days into doing an honest days work they will stand there, and watch the old man work harder with out a care. No one felt sorry for me in my apprentice years, and I sure as hell did not have to be shamed into doing something.
I thank all the journey men for that line of teaching. It makes you WANT to learn, and pay attention for not to be hazed or shamed in the future.
These days it seems that people are attracted to the trades because its a last ditch to earn a reasonable living with out a college education. They don't realise the blood, and sweat that goes into learning the trade because you are blue collar. It must be easy right?
For shame the new generation. Born with a candy bar in each hand, their toughest day is when the Dairy Queen ran out of ice cream.
I'm a Union Journey man carpenter, and I EARNED it.
Gordy0 -
Apprentice
There are many apprentices who don't give a damn and refuse to apply themselves. Guess what? So are many veteran mechanics. The apprentices are the future of the trades. Unfortunately they are too often not treated as such. Many outfits just use them as cheap labor and don't care if they learn or not. If they don't see themselves as going any where, it affects their attitude. Immigrants? I have experience with them too. Many are good hard working people who want to get ahead. The other side is many are not good in the people skills and ethics needed in our trades. Take the money and run. Be nice to get good apprentices and good immigrants at the same time.0 -
When I apprenticed.......
Many moons ago, it was under my Father. He was one of the "old-guys" ya know, big-smoker and a big-drinker(I think all those old-guys did!) He started on his-own in 1929, long before my "arrival" of course, so as I got old enough I really got interested in the trade. He sure was tough on me, things like, cutting cast-iron pipe with a chisel, if I splintered-it he`d rap my knuckles with the hammer, or punch me in the face, always yelling at me or calling me names, but I perservered. Only when he was very sick, did he mellow. I could never even think of doing anything like that to any apprentice I have, oh ya, there are some "slackers" out there, but most are willing to learn, and teach things to without all the "crap" that I took.0 -
Tough love & a pig's ****
Look, the bottom line is either the kid is going to "get it" or he or she isn't. Cramming it down their throat isn't going to change anything. Either someone has an interest or they don't. You should be able to recognize talent or the potential eagerness for the trade or not. Work ethic is always a quality, I agree. However, teaching certain apprentices is not a waste of time or breath. Some have enthuisiasm, others don't. Others look at it as a way to pay the bills & will never amount to anything higher on the food chain. Why do you think people certain people in this trade advance by leaps & bounds, and others "go with the flo". The way I figure, is that if you're going to be doing something as a living for 35+ years. you'd better damn well like it, or maybe this trade isn't for you.0 -
apprentices
I would be happy if I could find someone that would SHOW UP. EVERY DAY! ON TIME! Even if they knew absolutley nothing about the trade. I can't even find that and until then I Will be a one man shop!
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
I'm with you, Al
"everybody wins soccer and tee ball" is crap. NOBODY gets "cut" from the team anymore. Kids don't learn how to fight for anything and earn respect, they expect it given to them regardless.
I've got one who's leaving for a higher paycheck next week. He says, "I knew you couldn't pay me that much more." I told him he was right, I wasn't going to give him ANY more until he showed some improvement. He looked flabbergasted. Today when I told him we were going to need a close nipple and a tee, he said "Yup" and never moved. The 3rd time I said it I wasn't too kind. Good riddance...0 -
I must live in one of the few areas that has a handful of good apprentices. I don't remember saying every single kid is a hard worker. And the statement about kids going to college meant you are not going to have as many to choose from. I didn't imply that you did or didn't. IN MY AREA and IN MY EXPERIENCE some (not all) of the older technicians have gotten into bad habits over the years or have not kept up with the industry.0 -
Sorry
Sorry about the profane title on that post yesterday, there folks. I apologize.
Ross0 -
Machiavelli's Conundrum
The question posed by Niccolo Machiavelli in his book The Prince was whether it was better for a ruler to be loved or feared. I believe his answer was that it is best to be respected. That respect is earned through a mix of both love and fear.
In the context of this thread I guess that means that when dealing with an apprentice the proper approach depends on many factors. Those factors being:
Experience
Work ethic
Desire
Mental ability
and yes certainly Age
This list can be added to ad infinitum.
My approach to those who work for me is mixed. I try to build a bond of mutual respect and a desire to build the company. Sure, my men know that they will get paid well for their labor however, I don't hesitate to ride them when they slack. Everybody has a bad day and you can't be on a guy's s**t all the time. Eventually if he has half a brain he will walk or worse begin to sabotage you.
Still I tend to agree with Al Corelli. Here in NYC it isn't easy to find people who want to learn the trade. When you do , you find that their only motivation is money. Yes Al, people do think everything is owed to them.
Before you all think that I am some sour old guy, you should know that I am only 32. I came up with a mentor who rode my **** like a rodeo champ! Guess what. He still does. He won't hesitate to let me know when I mess up. As a teenager coming into this business I resented his methods. As a man I now hve mixed feelings about his approach. I learned alot! I learned how to do a man's job and be a man about it (btw I have seen plenty of women do this man's job and I respect them!). Never the less. I did have quite a bit of anger and resentment about being constantly told I wasn't doing this or that right. Or it could have been done better, faster or easier. I especially despised being called out in front of other people.
I think the best way to guide a newcomer is through patience and respect. Maybe one reason why youth aren't interested in the trade today is because of the reputation old ball breakers have given to it. Put yourself in a 18 or 21 year old kid's position. You have a choice to make. Office job or 4 years apprenticeship under some crotchety old **** that will break your shoes and belittle you every day. After which, if you are still alive and not scared of every move you make, you might earn a decent salary, have a good life (family, kids, etc.)and then die of cancer at 72. Hrmmmm.. What would you choose if you had the option?
Bottom line when it comes to a kid trying to get into this business.... Build Don't Destroy0 -
Saatchi, great post!0 -
Old School or New School?
How about middle school?
There is no doubt that we bust our butts in the field. The work is hard. The work is dirty. The work is painful.
The teaching our apprentices MUST involve the hard, dirty and painful stuff. They have to realize that they will responsible for accomplishing these tasks when they are set out on their own.
On the other hand, teaching the newbies the intricacies of how a system works or how to pipe in a piece of equipment involves a different approach. Yes, it involves hand holding and the teacher must expect that it may take 2 or three attempts before the result actually resembles what it is you are trying to achieve.
However, nothing is more rewarding than finally seeing that light bulb go off over an apprentice's head, signifying that, after all of your hard work, and theirs, the product (creating a qualified, knowledgable worker) is nearing completion.
As an educator, I find that it is extremely important to get into the trenches with those we are teaching. When asking an apprentice to clean up a work area, it means a lot more if you partake in the festivities as well. This is not to say that you should clean the entire area, but show that you are not merely "assigning" the work that you choose not to do.
If a newbie sees that you are willing to assist him at ALL levels of the job, you will be more likely to create a loyal, honest, dedicated worker.
One final thought. When the apprentice messes up, take a moment or ten to explain what is wrong with the situation. Explain why piping the boiler supply piping to the floor drain is a bad thing. He will appreciate it and be very eager to do it right the next time. And don't be afraid to give him that next chance.0 -
ATTITUDE
The whole subject here is attitude! Both the employers and employees! If you want great apprentice hire that attitude. If You have to train him under a journeyman other than yourself, hire an attitude! If the correct attitude is on the job. you can make $$$ and enjoy longterm employees. 'Beating until attitude gets better' is not an option as well as 'kissing butts' is out for employers. Respect is an attitude! Respect for people and equipment is an attitude. Hire an attitude you respect and respects you, and your equipment, and then respect that attitude!
I was in the business 42 years and taught many. Some were of the 'ATTITUDE' that others 'owed them', others had the attitude that they were on the job to learn. The best were the 'on the job to learn' they were on time, ready to go, had patience, went out of the way to please. Just hire the attitude and the rest is a money maker! An attitude is teachable, skills are learned not inherant. However an "ATTITUDE" we all can do without!0 -
Things Stay the Same
I am 53 and remember as an older teenager and in my early 20's people commenting that many kids/guys my age didn't want to work or weren't dependable. Where do you think today's old hacks got their start?Leo0 -
when I was young
we drank sewer water, and we liked it.0 -
Humiliation not required
Firm but fair. I would never knowingly humiliate someone as a means of getting the point across.
Different personalities require a different approach. I have a guy who has been with us for 5 years. In some reagrds he has progressed nicely, in other regards he should be more knowledgeable. Several times over the years I have sat down and explained to him that some things he learns on my time and some things he needs to take the initiative on his own time. We pay for any schooling he wants. I have handed him trade magazines that I suggest he subscribe to. I have the other techs take the time to coach him. He lets his ego get in the way. I have been speaking with him about all of this for 4 years. Finally about 6 months ago I freaked out and read him the riot act, he seems to be getting the message.
Who's fault is this?
Keith0 -
Cheers
Reah-Reah-Reah
0 -
Understanding the Why Generation...
Their very first question is "Why should I want to work for YOU?" Second question is usually, "What is in it for ME?"
Like it or not, this is the stock we have to work from, and it requires special handling.
Here is a guy I had the opportunity to listen to who has it down pat.
http://www.generationwhy.com/
Get used to it, or get out of business...
ME0 -
It depends
That being said I have a 19 yo high school graduate with me sometimes the rest of the time he is with the owner on installs. Boss says he knows how to use the pipe threadingn machine so I leave you two to do this gas install. I install some 90s with nipples from the tray take a measurment and say cut a pipe 19 and 3/4 inches long. His reply "I don't know my quaters only my halves you will have to mark the tape". I hold back my urge to say something and mark the pipe, took a quick coffe break to settle me down. He gets back and I asked how many quaters in a dollar he says 4, how many quaters in an inch he says I don't know, so I ask it all over again and he 4 in the dollar and then the light bulb goes off and says 4 to the inch. Now he can read quater inches on the ruler, so yes some is lazyness but many times it is that they didn't have to learn to get by and also learn the satisfaction that you and I get for being able to overcome the obstacles in our way.0 -
Fractions are 4th Grade
> I have a 19 yo high school graduate... "I don't know my quaters only my halves you will have to mark the tape".
Fractions used to be taught in 4th grade, maybe it was third--I forget. I think now kids learn them from watching Sesseme Street when they're 4 years old. How does someone get a high school diploma who doesn't know what a quarter is? It's amazing.0 -
memories
Reading this thread , brought back memories.
I had a sawzall thrown at me once, definately old school teaching. He always
was hard on me, until one day I went to the boss and said I want to be with someone else or I quit.
Mechanic came back to me, apologized,said I was one of the better ones, and began teaching me the trade. He turned out to be one of the nicest guys , the best mechanic I ever worked with. The only guy I would work with, and he would only want to work with me also.
We also became friends, despite the age difference.
I say 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'0 -
In 1974
In 1974 I interviewed in a welding shop and the question "Can you read a rule?" was one of the things the owner dwelled on. Even to the point of almost quizzing me. So being the wise guy I am I said you mean three inches and two little lines? His look was priceless until I said or do you mean quarters, eights, sixteenths, or thirty seconds. Never went to work there as something else came up but he did call and offer me more money and told me I had impressed him.
Leo0 -
Apprentice
Many veterans view apprentices as threats. Someone who will take their jobs and work a lot cheaper. Unfortunately many employers will do just that. The longer you've worked the more your views change on different subjects. When you're young the vets are crotchety SOB's who don't understand. When older the young guys are the foils. "They are making the same as me but are calling me all the time for help when they are stuck." I know many employers who love this kind of dissention. All parties don't realize that they are actually on the same team. The boss included.0 -
old and new
I dealt with the old school and took alot of stuff but i didn't take it to long smother them with niceest ,i would run the cords ,unload tools and set up the mech stuff in the morning and roll it all up at the days end other helper though i was nuts but i was lucky one gentle men taught me the in and out of waste and finish another boilers .i persaonally used the od school for many years as a res/com hvac installer and it did work i trtained dozen of guys who are still in the trades some top dogs at where they work but the common tread was they where not slackers and they where not winning any milkers awards the slacker and milkers where cast off from the clammy world to a harscher place .I have found that you have to be more then a working realtionship for a great work bond to happen asid efrom that you must be on time ,work late and as ken stated the beatings will continue until morale improves are totally true but these days there are no phyiscal beatings every one is to special and sensetive for that but i feel that i have not seen any up and coming young ones who lazy attuide but properly gelled hair is worth teaching anything too they all want the big bucks but have no knoweledge or any work ethic .The recant best worker i have seen is a small guatemealan kid who works for my buddy we love he shows up every day works like a beaver never complains works late and has yet to be heard cursing at least not over my own .sorry for the rant i think it takes a bit of both to make a real mech peace and good luck clammyR.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
NJ Master HVAC Lic.
Mahwah, NJ
Specializing in steam and hydronic heating0 -
A different take
Iam currently in the military and soon will be joining the civilian plumbing and heating ranks (anybody from Michigan?). I have spent many years teaching young men about hydronics and enviormmental control systems and from my point of view it has a lot to do with the fact that most individuals are not deeply in love with the trade or only have a passing interest. When i was an instructor i used to see this all the time and we as instructors used to sit and complain about how the students dont care and all the usual fair. But i think what needs to be done is to let these individuals know what the advantages of learning really is. People are motivated be a large number of things including each of us, i think as good teachers and mentors we need to find out what motivates each individual and work from there.Some times its a kick in the shorts other times its a word of incouragement, but at least find out which one it is.0
![[Deleted User]](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/afac56911928f33d30165dc487514c71/?default=https%3A%2F%2Fvanillicon.com%2F081b546f1b2f8cbe6236b49801730a42_200.png&rating=g&size=200)
![[Deleted User]](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/a09a39a06892db99518fc12b31225fe9/?default=https%3A%2F%2Fvanillicon.com%2F1c5240749149d1b1cf49e1791c82a20a_200.png&rating=g&size=200)
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.9K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.2K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 57 Biomass
- 425 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 110 Chimneys & Flues
- 2.1K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.7K Gas Heating
- 105 Geothermal
- 160 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.6K Oil Heating
- 70 Pipe Deterioration
- 981 Plumbing
- 6.3K Radiant Heating
- 387 Solar
- 15.4K Strictly Steam
- 3.4K Thermostats and Controls
- 54 Water Quality
- 44 Industry Classes
- 47 Job Opportunities
- 18 Recall Announcements