Steam Boiler Preferences

Mark_35 · August 2006

> Mark, how big is the old boiler? I'm from west 
> surburb of Chicago and I'm partial to Weil Mclain 
> boilers, only problems I have with them as well 
> other steamers, they will all fail due to lack of 
> maintenices... Where are you located?

Mark_35 · July 2006

Steam Boiler Preferences

I am replacing a 135 MBH steam boiler (two pipe system). I am considering a Dunkirk (Pennco), Weil McLain and Hydro Therm. Can anyone offer any opinions/experiences on advantages/disadvantages of the different brands. They all seem pretty comparable except that the Dunkirk has push nipples instead of gaskets.

Mark

Steamhead (in transit) · July 2006

Of the three

I'd go with Dunkirk. Also check out Burnham, Columbia and Peerless.

The most important thing is a good installation. Check out the Find a Professional page of this site.

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Al Letellier_9 · July 2006

steam boilers

> I am replacing a 135 MBH steam boiler (two pipe

> system). I am considering a Dunkirk (Pennco),

> Weil McLain and Hydro Therm. Can anyone offer

> any opinions/experiences on

> advantages/disadvantages of the different brands.

> They all seem pretty comparable except that the

> Dunkirk has push nipples instead of gaskets.

> Mark

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Al Letellier_9 · July 2006

steam boilers

Weil Mclain......have installed over 300 WM boilers, many of them steam.....never a failure, great service and support and made in the USA, It doesn't get any better than that, in my book. Have 6 steamers sold right now and there all WM.

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Boilerpro_5 · July 2006

Preferences

Around here in Northern Illinois we and others contractors we work with typically see Weil EG series steamer last only about 15 years....either the castings rot out or the gaskets fail. Better maintenance would get you longer life. I've installed Dunkirk, Burnham, Hydrotherm, and Slantfin gas fired atmospheric draft hood units. I would stay away from Hydrotherm...they produce great steam and seem quite efficient, like Weil Mclain, but seem to have gas train problems.... High CO, burner failures, poorlight off,etc.and lower quality. Also, along with Weil, parts are not available from the factory 2 to 3 weeks each winter during inventory.
My favorites are the Slantfins, if you can accomodate the tall drafthood. They manage to produce exceptional quality steam, despite only a single 2 1/2 inch tapping, and seem to be very easy to clean up and keep clean with thier built in skimmer casting. I have 4 of these in on 2 smaller commercial systems and the steam quality was so good that we had to go to a special high sensisity probe because the condensate from the steam header was so pure that it was not conductive enough for standard electronic probes. Firing efficiency is a little lower than some, it appears, but about par with most brands. The Dunkirks appear to have higher firing efficiencies in the smaller sizes I've tested (112,500 input)and a low drafthood that helps out for installation.

Boilerpro

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Mark_35 · July 2006

Preferences

> Around here in Northern Illinois we and others

> contractors we work with typically see Weil EG

> series steamer last only about 15 years....either

> the castings rot out or the gaskets fail. Better

> maintenance would get you longer life. I've

> installed Dunkirk, Burnham, Hydrotherm, and

> Slantfin gas fired atmospheric draft hood units.

> I would stay away from Hydrotherm...they produce

> great steam and seem quite efficient, like Weil

> Mclain, but seem to have gas train problems....

> High CO, burner failures, poorlight off,etc.and

> lower quality. Also, along with Weil, parts are

> not available from the factory 2 to 3 weeks each

> winter during inventory. My favorites are the

> Slantfins, if you can accomodate the tall

> drafthood. They manage to produce exceptional

> quality steam, despite only a single 2 1/2 inch

> tapping, and seem to be very easy to clean up and

> keep clean with thier built in skimmer casting.

> I have 4 of these in on 2 smaller commercial

> systems and the steam quality was so good that we

> had to go to a special high sensisity probe

> because the condensate from the steam header was

> so pure that it was not conductive enough for

> standard electronic probes. Firing efficiency

> is a little lower than some, it appears, but

> about par with most brands. The Dunkirks appear

> to have higher firing efficiencies in the smaller

> sizes I've tested (112,500 input)and a low

> drafthood that helps out for

> installation.

>

> Boilerpro

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 393&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Mark_35 · July 2006

Preferences and water line area

Thanks for the advice. I had heard that Slant Fins were good, but had not looked into them yet.

I was also concerned about the surface area at the water line, since this would seem to translate into the volume of steam you could make before the condensate started to make it back. The old boiler was a monster and had tons water and a huge surface area at the water line. No one seems to publish this info in their literature. My system is not huge and has convectors, so maybe I should not worry have to about it. I have heard suggestions of putting supplemental tank beside the boiler to add water storage at the water line, but I am not crazy about this idea.

Mark

Unknown · July 2006

mark....

Mark, how big is the old boiler? I'm from west surburb of Chicago and I'm partial to Weil Mclain boilers, only problems I have with them as well other steamers, they will all fail due to lack of maintenices... Where are you located?

Mark_35 · July 2006

Old Boiler Ideal Model 12

The old boiler was an ideal model 12 from 1935. It was rated at about 420 MBH. The heat loss on my house is about 100 MBH. I had it firing at about 170 MBH. The combustion efficiency was good, but it took forever to heat up. It was a shame to see it go - It was still in great shape inside.

My latest quandary is whether to keep the return trap or just pipe in a Hartford loop. It is a two pipe system which perates fine at about 8 oz pressure.

Mark_35 · July 2006

Location

I am in Albany NY. The heating contractor I am working with likes Dunkirk. I am told that they made boilers for many other resellers for many years. I do like the way their literature is written. I will probably go with them.

Mark

Unknown · August 2006

Mark...

Whatever the boiler u chose to use, get a pro to do the job and there's only ONE way to do the job, the RIGHT way... Hope you are getting the steam books from this site to make yourself an educated customer.... Good luck

Steamhead (in transit) · August 2006

You have a Vapor system

I'd leave the Return Trap where it is, and pipe its discharge into a new Hartford Loop which would be configured to the new boiler's piping diagram. If there are any wet returns from steam mains that do not go thru steam traps, these should not return thru the Return Trap. Run these straight to the Hartford Loop.

What make Return Trap is it? In general, this manufacturer would have designed the entire Vapor system you have. If we know the manufacturer we can be more specific.

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Guy_6 · August 2006

Question

I just want to throw this out there, as much out of curiosity as anything: Why is it that no one here seems to use the Smith Boilers? Is it distribution? Some issue from the past? Unhappy with support? Commercially I have seen a few postings here and there, but on the residential side we are rarely mentioned here. I would like to know so that I can address it at our sales meeting next week.

Mark_35 · August 2006

Return Trap

It is a Trane No 210 Direct Return trap. I was never felt that it did anything with the old boiler, though I am not sure. I don't think that the steam pressure would have been high enough to raise the condensate level enough to trip it. It set quite high above the old boiler. I am a little concerned that if it pumps it will flood the new boiler since the water volume is so much lower. What if I lower it a bit, or would that be a mistake?

Another thing the system has which seems a bit odd it that the end of main drip trap (a trane thermostatic trap is pretty low - low enough to be in condensate. I guess it would just stay open down there.

Mark

Mad Dog_2 · August 2006

Burnham.........................................................

Always insist on Iron Push nipples...never seen them leak, but we take out several rubber-ring boilers that have been leaking a year. Not a fan of them. Mad Dog

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Brad White_103 · August 2006

Guy-

Speaking for the specifying engineer side of things, (and going to the commercial/institutional side moreso than residential) here is my perspective:

1) Years ago, Smith was the "Go-To" boiler for high value projects, schools, public buildings, here-to-stay businesses. Up there with Buffalo air handling equipment, Aurora pumps, all good, solid equipment a notch above others; they all seemed to go together.

2) Some years ago, either by fact or rumor, it came be be known that HB Smith "went out of business", essentially disappeared from the scene. This may or may not entirely be true but there seemed to be a hiatus between then and when Mestek took them over. This perceived gap may, (IIRC) have coincided with a lull in the economy whereby we were not designing that many new buildings, so this extended the "no Smith" period of time.

From your perspective and those of the former Smith Rep (Yvon B., a great resource by the way), there may have not been that much discontinuity. But at the specifying level, yes there was. Yvon, I would add, is and was an excellent sales engineer, for Smith then and Burnham now. He had and has the ear of many in the several offices for whom I worked. So if service and sales is key, that is why.

3) Lastly, since that time, boiler technology, not just mod-cons but in general the concept of copper tube, low-mass boilers, vertical water tube boilers, became more accepted. Within that I would offer that the lull in the economy meant more retrofits. No argument about sectional CI boilers fitting into existing buildings, but the lighter weight ones went in with less overall labor. Boilers are long-term products (one hopes!) so their life continues for now.

Nowadays, CI boilers are rarely specified for larger projects, unless a school where they prefer them for various reasons.

My $0.02

Brad

kevin coppinger_4 · August 2006

I use Smith....

especially the 8 seiers...it is a good set up for the money..never had a problem steam or hot water.... In fact for this case I would use a Smith G-8...it is a steam boiler designed to be used w/ gas (carlin burner) , wet base, and if people wanted to they could opt for the tankless heater...good support from the factory. kpc

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Guy_6 · August 2006

Great

That's good to hear. Thanks for feeding my kids!

[Deleted User] · August 2006

Don't get hung up

on heat loss. Unless you are installing new radiation to match actual load, size your boiler on installed radiation. That may have been your problem w/ slow heat up.

Our "go to" steam boilers (commercial) are Smith 19A & 28A/HE. Super dry steam & easy piping. If I did residential, the Smith 8 w/ a Carlin EZ-Gas looks good.

Boilerpro_5 · August 2006

Resizing radiation the easy way

Use orifice plates in the supply valves to match the load. Many old vapor systems came with these already. Once you orifice the radiation to the load, you can downsize the boiler and size it to Hw standards with a pick up of about 1.1 from what I have read. Give Tunstall a call they can direct you in the right direction.

Boilerpro

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Steamhead (in transit) · August 2006

Return Trap should be fine

its water content is rather low too. With a Vaporstat, the pressure should be plenty low enough for gravity return, but if something should go wrong like a plugged Vaporstat pigtail the Return Trap would serve as a backup.

Not sure why there's a trap on that drip. Trane Vapor systems didn't usually have them, they just dripped everything into wet returns and vented air thru standard main vents.

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Mark_35 · August 2006

Pick with fin tube convectors - not radiators

You brought up a point that I was going to ask for some input on. I don't have radiators but fin tube convectors. I would think that the pickup would be way less than 1.33, since they have almost no volume. Would that be a correct assumption?

I worked out the EDR from some old catalogues that appeared to match pretty well and come up with 332 square feet. They all have air dampers most of which are about 80% closed, so there is plenty of heating capacity. What pickup would folks recommend for an FTR system?
Mark

Mark

Mark_35 · August 2006

Sounds like I should reuse it.

My contractor actually recommended the same thing - I was just trying to simplify as much as possible - but no big deal to leave it in.

Mark_35 · August 2006

Sounds like I should reuse it.

My contractor actually recommended the same thing - I was just trying to simplify as much as possible - but no big deal to leave it in.

Unknown · August 2006

whoa, whoa

Copper fin tubings radiators on ur steam system ? What happened to the cast irons?

Al Corelli · August 2006

We use Smith Boilers

In the past year, we've done MANY 19 and 28 series boilers, including a 28HE for the Humane Society of NY in Manhattan.

The 8 Series is what we choose to install for our own customers, while we install MANY Burnham V series boilers for a local oil company my family has worked with for three generations. Buderus/Riello gets the nod for the "upsell boiler".

Gas is Dunkirk or Smith with an upsell to Buderus or Munchie.
We're doing a Smith Gas steamer today. GB6 I think.

BTW, It is Becketts and Riellos for the Burnhams, and ONLY Riellos for the 8 series Smiths. The large Smiths get Carlins.

But, we will install ANYTHING the customer wants.

Steamhead (in transit) · August 2006

Whoa, rjpphd

This type of convector was very popular on later Trane Vapor systems. What he has is likely original rather than added later. These convectors were used with orifices rather than traps in the very late 1930s to the beginning of World War 2.

Mark, you may be able to get away with less pickup. But I'd use the usual pickup to size the boiler, and downfire slightly if less pickup is needed.

"Steamhead"

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Unknown · August 2006

that's make

That's make more sense, I was under impression of some hack jobs I've seen in bldg with storefronts, handyman taken out cast iron radiators and replaced with 3/4" copper fins tubing with out traps. Drove the upstairs tenants crazy with the hammering til I got permisson from the landlord to "break" in the storefront and found the culprits, handyman and store owner said it had nothing to do with the problems in there because that not where the heat is being made.... Too much trouble and washed my hands with that job...

Mark_35 · August 2006

Convector details and Downfiring

The convectors date from 1935 - part of the original house I believe. I will post some pictures tomorrow.
Actually they all have Trane thermostatic steam traps. I put in new Tunstall cage units and they work good.
If I get a Dunkirk, it will be slightly oversized so I may want to reduce the firing rate at bit.

What is the best way to downfire an atmospheric - reducing the gas pressure of shutting off some of the nozzles? I am planning to go atmospheric, since I like the idea of being able to run it for a week on a trailer battery and an inverter when we have an extended power outage (we have had some pretty long ones.)

Mark

Steam Boiler Preferences

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