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Three CO situations in three days

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Mark Hunt
Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,908
In the past three days I have shut down three appliances due to high levels of CO and replaced one for the same reason.

The replacement was a 40 gallon water heater that was producing 2500+ ppm of CO.

I found one boiler that was producing in excess of 2000ppm CO continuously.

I found another boiler that was spilling CO from EVERY penetration of the boiler jacket.

I found a water heater which had a vent that had a verticle rise off of the unit, a horizontal run of approximately 3 feet and then dropped about a foot down and was connected to a collar that was cut in to the side of the OIL furnace flue pipe.

Folks said they ALWAYS felt like they had a cold. Go figure!

My Bacharach Fyrite-Pro gets used nearly every day.

I wonder how many empty chairs there will be at this years Thanksgiving and Christmas tables?

CO Experts alarms all around!!!

And if any of you haven't read George's Smoke Alarm report, it is worth the read!

Mark H



<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=238&Step=30">To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"</A>

Comments

  • Jim_22
    Jim_22 Member Posts: 53
    Smoke alarm report

    Mark,

    I haven't heard of "George's smoke alarm report"
    Where can I find it?

    Jim
  • John R. Hall
    John R. Hall Member Posts: 2,245
    One story

    Four hotel workers felled by CO fumes

    By Michael Puffer / MPUFFER@CNC.COM
    Thursday, September 18, 2003











    Victims hospitalized following boiler room leak


    Four Sheraton Ferncroft maintenance workers were taken to Beverly Hospital suffering from carbon monoxide poisoning yesterday afternoon, after the boiler room where they were working filled with the deadly fumes. Their conditions were unavailable at press time.

    A Sheraton maintenance supervisor, checking up on a pair of workers who had been out of contact for an unusually long time, found one man sprawled on the floor of the boiler room and one outside, Danvers Fire Department Deputy Chief Stephen Prendergast said. One of the men was in convulsions, the other was unconscious, he said.

    The supervisor was joined by another Sheraton employee, and the pair pulled the two incapacitated men from the first-floor boiler room to a nearby loading dock, Fire Department officials said.

    When firefighters and paramedics from the Danvers and Middleton Fire departments and Lyons Ambulance arrived at the scene around 2:30 p.m. they found the two Sheraton employees who had rescued the others were also suffering common signs of carbon monoxide poisoning (stiff joints and a severe headache), Prendergast said.

    "I've never seen higher levels," Danvers Fire Lt. Mike Perry said during a press conference. As Perry entered the corridor leading to the boiler room his gas meter registered carbon monoxide at 900 parts per million (PPM). At 16 PPM "you need to get out of there in a hurry," Perry said.

    Levels of 900 PPM are fatal within 20 minutes to one-half hour, Prendergast said.

    A hotel spokesperson who called The Herald Wednesday refuted the fire department account.

    "They walked down and said 'we are not feeling so hot,' no passing-out, no seizures, none of that," Sheraton spokesperson Chris Daly said. "Two of them drove themselves to the hospital."

    Middleton and Danvers firefighters were joined by police from both towns, as well as firefighters from North Reading. Breathing portable oxygen, firefighters walked through the 367-room hotel straddling Danvers and Middleton, opening windows, looking for possible victims, checking gas levels and setting up fans to pump the gas outdoors.

    Prendergast said a failure in the ventilation system allowed gas from the boiler to pool in the boiler room and spill to nearby corridors. Lighter than air, the gas had traveled through the building and was pumped out by fans set up by Danvers firefighters, Perry said.

    About 150 guests were registered at the Sheraton Thursday, hotel spokesman Julie Campisani said. In addition, about 200 guests were attending a Hospice of the North Shore conference in one of the hotel's function halls, and about 25 people were attending a second conference at the hotel, she said.

    No guests reported symptoms of exposure to high levels of carbon monoxide, fire officials said.

    At about 2:45 p.m. the decision was made to pull a fire alarm and evacuate guests from the hotel, Campisani said. Hotel managers went from room to room making sure people had gotten out, she said.

    Fire Department officials were unable to give the conditions of the injured Sheraton workers at press time. Their condition depended on how long the workers had been exposed, Prendergast said during the press conference.

    Daly said two of the stricken workers were released from the hospital as of 7 p.m. Wednesday, and the other two were expected to be released later that night.

    Fire Department officials had not released the names of the victims as of press time and the Herald was unable to confirm the status of the injured workers.

    Investigators from the U.S. Department of Labor Occupational Safety & Health Administration (OSHA) were dispatched to investigate the scene, which is standard procedure in such cases.
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,882
    Mark

    What did you do about the HWH and why was it making so much C.O. ?

    Was it a bad baffle ? lack of air ?

    Scott

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  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
    It is very scary that I find most people get cheap when

    it comes to buying the right co detector: "oh. my husband says the one from Home depot is fine for us...yours is almost 4 times the price......" Unfortunatley, it takes a sick person or a call to the fire dept. or gas company to wake these people up. I'd say that we sell only 1 in every 15 people who have yet to have a problem. Once they have a problem we can sell 12 out of 15. You still get some very stubborn and stupid people. Out of the 12 people, only 6 or 8 will buy 2 - one for sleeping floors and one for either basement or main floor. Very frustrating! But we are making some headway. Mad Dog

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  • Fred P
    Fred P Member Posts: 77
    what is considered a good CO detector?

    Ive bought a CO detector for my basement there and I also bought one for my next door neighbor thats a hybrid CO and smoke detector.

    The average homeowner doesnt know the better stuff (and why) we rely on the manufacture reputation I guess (first alert, etc)

  • rudy_2
    rudy_2 Member Posts: 135
    CO Monitors not 'Alarms'

    It's real easy to tell if a CO alarm is going to provide you, your family and customers true protection. Look for the UL lable, if it meets UL standards, it is worthless except for very dangerous exposure levels.

    Go to the CO-Experts webpage, there's alot of real good info there - www.coexperts.com .

    Another interesting read is the Gas Research Institute "Performance and Reliability Study" on CO Alarms:

    http://www.gastechnology.org/webroot/downloads/en/4ReportsPubs/TechReports/020112.pdf

    Among other findings, they determined that 38% of the 90 alarms they purchased right of store shelves failed, brand new, right out of the box. Yet when the test button was pressed, the display indicated they were working just fine.....
  • Fred P
    Fred P Member Posts: 77


    > Ive bought a CO detector for my basement there

    > and I also bought one for my next door neighbor

    > thats a hybrid CO and smoke detector.

    >

    > The

    > average homeowner doesnt know the better stuff

    > (and why) we rely on the manufacture reputation I

    > guess (first alert, etc)



  • Fred P
    Fred P Member Posts: 77


    > It's real easy to tell if a CO alarm is going to

    > provide you, your family and customers true

    > protection. Look for the UL lable, if it meets

    > UL standards, it is worthless except for very

    > dangerous exposure levels.

    >

    > Go to the

    > CO-Experts webpage, there's alot of real good

    > info there - www.coexperts.com .

    >

    > Another

    > interesting read is the Gas Research Institute

    > "Performance and Reliability Study" on CO

    > Alarms:

    >

    > http://www.gastechnology.org/webroot/do

    > wnloads/en/4ReportsPubs/TechReports/020112.pdf

    > Among other findings, they determined that 38% of

    > the 90 alarms they purchased right of store

    > shelves failed, brand new, right out of the box.

    > Yet when the test button was pressed, the display

    > indicated they were working just fine.....



    "Among other findings, they determined that 38% of the 90 alarms they purchased right of store shelves failed, brand new, right out of the box. Yet when the test button was pressed, the display indicated they were working just fine....."






  • Fred P
    Fred P Member Posts: 77


    "Among other findings, they determined that 38% of the 90 alarms they purchased right of store shelves failed, brand new, right out of the box. Yet when the test button was pressed, the display indicated they were working just fine....."

    Im not surprised. Its a shame that the quality of our products has gone downhill and to a sense we sort of expect that and accept that in todays world.....




  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
    The best Co units I've seen are Co EXperts................

    They are the only ones I use. How can you tell the good ones???? Price!!!!!!! We sell them for $189.95 and the Home Depot sells Their "butes" for $49.95. They stink, but even after explaining all the benefits of The CO Experts, most people care only about price. As I said before, the only time they learn is when someone gets sick, or the gas company comes and locks them out. Mad Dog

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  • rudy_2
    rudy_2 Member Posts: 135
    \"Special Offer\"

    I noticed on George's web site that he has a 'Special Offer' to folks in the trades.

    If you are a heating contractor, fire dept, etc. you can get one for $100 (list is $180) to try. Just include a business card or company letterhead.

    I have two in my own home and have had extremely good luck with them. One has been in for two years now and never even one 'false alarm'. The only time I have gotten them to alarm is when I've put them in a bag and blown it up with 100 ppm calibration gas (just to make sure they are working).

    The really great feature is that when you push the test button, the display shows: the existing level, the highest level since it was reset, the duration of that high level and how many hours and minutes ago the high level occured.

    Valuable information in the event of an alarm.
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,908
    The water heater

    was 18 years old and the gas valve would not open completely.

    There was a pile of rust and soot on top of the burner that was about 3 inches deep!

    We replaced the water heater with a new AO Smith 40 gallon atmospheric unit.

    This water heater was also common vented with a fan assisted furnace. It was connected to the furnace flue with a 3" collar cut into the side of the flue pipe.

    When the furnace ran the water heater would not vent and spilled into the basement.

    We installed a wye, not a tee, and the new water heater drafts properly now.

    Mark H

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  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
    That;s right, Rudy...those features cannot be found on any

    other brand that I've seen. MD

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  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,908
    If you have a fax


    e-mail me the number and I will send it to you.

    Mark H

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,908
    Pictures!!

    "Nuttin wrong with this vent"

    I fixed this one today. I went to the home yesterday to look at replacing a heating system and this is what I found.

    The oil furnace had been shut down due to a cracked HX, but the service tech missed this.

    BTW: We will be installing a new hot water baseboard system in this home in place of the hot air system!

    Mark H

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  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,908
    PREACH IT RUDY!!


    Those "over the counter" alarms will alert the EMT's as to why you are unconcious........................



    If they work that is!

    Mark H

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"
  • rudy_2
    rudy_2 Member Posts: 135
    3 CO situations in 2 hours

    Thought I'd add this. Was in prison last Wednesday (yea, did my time and they let me back out!!).

    The maintenance dept had purchased a couple of our analyzers and needed to get up to speed on them (pretty sharp bunch of guys). Tested three boilers - two were running at 2,500 ppms, one hit 12,000 ppms on light off and came down to 8,000ppms.

    Tried Jim Davis' test on one, covered the 'bell shaped' draft hood and the CO went from 2,500 to less than 50 in a matter of seconds. The stacks were just too short to develop much draft (less than -.01) particularly with the huge draft hoods.

    The head of maintenance is going to contact the manufacturer (Ajax) and see if they will allow barometrics, I'm real curious what he finds out.

    By the way Dan, they have a bunch of boilers to maintain so I recommended they just 'buy all your books'!! Also suggested that they check out this site and post if they have any questions. I assured them you guys would help them out if they post any questions.

    Really enjoyed spending some time with those guys - although I gotta' tell ya' the CO didn't scare me near as much as the crowds of inmates we walked through on the way to the buildings...

    Holy cow, the things I do to make a buck.....
  • rudy_2
    rudy_2 Member Posts: 135
    George Kerr is the Preacher!!

    > Those "over the counter" alarms will alert the

    > EMT's as to why you are

    > unconcious........................

    >

    >

    >

    > If they

    > work that is!

    >

    > Mark H

    >

    > _A

    > HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

    > 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,

    > Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A

    > Contractor"_/A_



  • Carbon Monoxide Monitor vs Alarms

    I have five of the CO Expert monitors, three in my home to at my training center. I have five other name brand alarms purchased from various hardware outlets.

    My experiements with these alarms versus CO Experts Monitor are as follows.

    Controlled levels of CO at 10 PPM my CO monitor goes off right on 10 PPM every time in varoius locations even on my son-in-laws boat.

    Several others "alarms" failed to alarm at required 70 PPM even after over 4 hours of exposure at 70 to 80 ppm. One did every time which was the Nighthawk. However this one which is in the kitchen at my center just bit the dust a month ago, only 13 months old.

    It is my humble opinion that most testers sold over the counter are not very reliable. They also will not last as long as CO Experts - Monitor.

    I encourage every student who comes through my center to get in touch with George Kerr and get on board with these Monitors. I usually do not promote products, but in this case lives depend on it and I am convinced that this is the way to go.

    I have recently purchased five of them for my sons new home.
  • Combustion Testing /CO Training

    is going to be conducted at Gas Training Institute on Thursday December 18. This is a class every tech should attend as we are going to teach procedures for adjusting equipment to get maximum efficency with minimum Carbon Monoxide. All of our techniques are manufacturer approved. It is my experience after installing and servicing over 3,500 gas conversion burners over the last 40 years that testing should be done on every call.

    We will be going over gas ovens, water heaters, boilers and furnaces. We will also go over several atmoshperic and power burner conversion burners.
  • rudy_2
    rudy_2 Member Posts: 135
    George Kerr is the Preacher!!

    Over the past couple of years George has really open my eyes to what is going on in the home CO (and smoke) alarm industry.

    The man has a true passion for his industry (been in it for over 50 years) as well as the rest of the things he does in life. Told me a story about when he was 68, he had a hip replacement. What really bummed him out was when the doctor told him he couldn't sky dive any more.....

    He could beat any of us here in an arm wrestling contest and I'm certain you would enjoy spending a day hunting or fishing with him!!

    His professional passion is challanging the CO industry to insure true protection to consumers.

    Found a quote from an Apple Computer ad that reminds me of him:

    Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in a square hole, the ones who see things differently. They're not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo. You can quote them, disagree with then, glorify or vility them.
    About the only thing you can't do is ignore them, because they change things, they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who'll do it.

    (and he is actually an ordained minister!!)
  • gas man_2
    gas man_2 Member Posts: 1
    co detectors

    I trouble shoot CO calls all the time - I've recommended nighthawk detectors to many people , what I've found is , when they have had the pulg into the outlet nighthawks that have alarmed , ther has been a ligitimate problem . most of the other brands are junk. consumer reports {1998}did rate nighthawk as the best over the counter available. I'm amazed that their not required as are smoke alarms in all homes. The cost is low , and saves lives. Wake up America or maybe not at all !!!!!!!!!!!
  • rudy_2
    rudy_2 Member Posts: 135
    I agree

    My experience is that the Nighthawk performs very well per the UL 2034 listing,

    The beef is not with the manufacturers, it is with the requirements of UL.

    For the past couple of months I've done CO trainings where I've put the CO-Experts in a zip lock bag and filled it up with 100 ppm calibration gas. It always goes off in about 30 seconds.

    Then I do the same thing with a $70, digital Nighthawk I picked up last Spring. It generally takes 3-4 hours to alarm - which is exactly what it is supposed to do according to the UL standard.....

    It can't alarm below 70 ppm and can't display below 30 ppm. So between 30 and 70 ppm all it does is display any existing levels - the reading is displayed for about 5 seconds every minute.

    Yes, I think Nighthawk makes a product that performs exactly to UL requirements. I do, however, have some concerns regarding the requirements.

    Then to compound things, UL doesn't even require that the actual sensor be tested while in use.

    So the really cheap CO alarms are set up so when you press the test button, all that tests is the circuit board, not the sensor. Since they also use a 'cheap' sensors - well, do the math!!

    The CO-Experts start reading out at 5 ppms and alarming at 10 ppm. It continually monitors the sensor and alarms should the sensor fail.

    About 2 years ago, George sent me the one I travel with, I was amazed at the number of HVAC supply houses and hotels I was in where it went off.

    jmho
  • jim_14
    jim_14 Member Posts: 271


    where can the co-expert be bought?
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,908
    Timmie & Rudy tag teamin'!!!!!!!!!!


    "If only my brother George was here"!!! (Liberace)

    "Upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell wil not prevail against it". (Jesus)

    The TRUTH folks! And the science to back it up.

    Let's all make a concerted effort this year to make our customers safer.

    Please test.

    There is SO much at stake.

    I don't make this stuff up guys, I see it nearly EVERY day.

    Until I started testing, I never knew.

    Mark H



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  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,908
    CO Experts


    www.coexperts.com

    Buy two.

    They are way cheaper than funerals.

    Mark H

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"
  • rudy_2
    rudy_2 Member Posts: 135
  • MikeB34
    MikeB34 Member Posts: 155
    cheap detectors

    I actually read the instructions for 1 that said...and I quote:"If alarm sounds, place outside in fresh air for 24 hours to reset..." Can you imagine!!! If its sounds don't take it seriously unless it happens again.29.95 big box special. When it comes to human life spend the $$$
    Mike
  • John R. Hall
    John R. Hall Member Posts: 2,245
    Ellis Prach and ACCA chapter in The News

    See this week's (9/22) edition of The News for a good story on the hands-on training by Ellis Prach (Heat Exchanger Experts) for members of the Western Pennsylvania chapter of the ACCA.
  • John R. Hall
    John R. Hall Member Posts: 2,245
    And this from Isabel...

    "The deadly effects of the storm also were being felt in Pennsylvania, where a woman died Sunday from fumes emitted by a generator used to power her house."

This discussion has been closed.