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Myself and HotRod live in the midwest. The perferred method of heating is scorched air. We have to be very cost competative. The other problem is the local supply houses do not stock very much high end equipment. This makes part extremely rare and hard to come by. The firm I work for stocks a deeper parts inventory, than most of our suppliers.

We are looking at the big orange now. The problem is no local supplies.

Your point is well taken.

Mike

Preaching to the Choir

Among the many reasons that forced air continues to dominate in the US is its perceived simplicity. The customer sees a "box," a flue and some huge sheet metal ducts that are just "certain" to be able to hold lots of heated/cooled air. After some growing pains and rather spectacular initial failures the consumer sees 95+% efficiency, increased reliability and thinks, "great." They're even willing Guinea pigs for such things as two (or more) speed blowers/burners. (I won't repeat here what my friendly heat man calls these by the way.)

The vast majority have lived with forced air the major part of their life, and while they might not find it perfect it seems to get the job done quite reliably with nothing more to adjust than the thermostat and little more maintenance than a filter they're always waiting too long to replace. They know that if the humidifier or electronic cleaner quits working, they'll still have air.

The quick delivery of these systems fits perfectly with the, "I want it and I want it NOW" attitude that WAY too many Americans seem to hold. Even in a small town, they can thumb through the Yellow Pages and find any number of firms to repair their system.

They see hydronics as an antiquated technology and it conjures images of massive ugly radiators or ticking baseboards that tend to stink when something falls in them or even quit working when new carpet is installed. Most won't even know if a hydronic system works with liquid or steam--particularly an old one. Even with the simplest of old systems they see valves, tanks, gauges and other strange devices. Anyone who ever tried to "quick chill" a soda in the freezer and forgot knows what happens when water freezes in a confined space. Anyone who has ever read "The Shining" may well think they have a monster in the basement just waiting to explode. If they've ever lived in a big steam-heated apartment building or recall "school days" they'll remember awful discomfort, hissing, spitting, banging, windows open in the dead of winter, stifling heat when its "not quite cold" outside, etc. They may well remember the "best" thing as being the neat way they melted crayons.

If they travel to Europe they'll certainly see plenty of radiators in all forms but often find they can't even turn up the heat to their comfort level (not realizing that it is a thermostatic valve that has been INTENTIONALLY limited).

Those who do their homework into the "modern" world of American hydronics may well get scared. As panel radiant has seen a lot of interest and makes some amazing promises they may well fall victim to "simple pre-designed all-in-one systems" mistakingly thinking that modern design has removed all of the "art".

They see a plethora of design choices sufficient to boggle the mind--even the minds of the pros. They read of horrid, unbelievably expensive failures--not only because of poor system design but the use of untested and/or inappropriate material and/or boilers.

When they see the PRO responses to a topic like "Would YOU buy a radiant house?" recently posed here, it's enough to make ANYONE think twice.

They see huge "boards" of stunning beauty (to a wethead at least). While certain to dazzle them and their friends, it's hard to completely shake the idea that, "it looks AWFULLY complicated with MANY devices of somewhat mysterious function."

The poor American boiler manufacturers are stuck in the middle of a seemingly endless swamp. Not only is there little residential market share in this country (with little or no chance of substantial export) but they have to try to design boilers for systems of ALL natures. High temp, low temp, fluctuating temp, high mass, low mass, mid mass, iron, steel, copper, plastic, hybrid (hydro-air) often COMBINED into the same systems!

Design, engineering, testing and production are ALL expensive propositions. Our government is of VERY little help in this regard as the vast majority of their R&D dollars go to the military and NASA where it takes decades for them to even release good rechargable batteries to the industry.

Investors, like consumers, want results--NOW! Even if they have been wary with their investment dollars they find that the crazy interconnected morass of investment allows EVERYTHING to tumble when just a "high-risk" bubble bursts.

American industry sees little or no need to spend the dollars to produce efficient use of fuel. After all, the US automobile industry has achieved a remarkable comeback by doing just the opposite. They nearly DIED in the 1970s until FORCED by the government to produce smaller, more efficient and SAFER cars. Now, by playing on base emotions (and finding a loophole in fleet average fuel economy requirements) they are making a quick killing.

[Funny that Ford is scheduled to close two Explorer plants near me--St. Louis and Louisville, KY. This despite record sales. Do they know something coming down the line, or do they just plan to export more of our manufacturing abroad? Forgive my cynicism, but are they just milking the public and playing them for chumps as long as possible? It certainly wouldn't the the FIRST time a large industry has done this to the people it supposedly "serves".]

European manufacturers like Viessmann and Danfoss have BIG market share--they have LOTS of money to devote to R&D and I believe their governments help them out as well. Their investors are not so interested in immediate stratospheric profits as reliable secure moderate income.

Instead of designing things that look more and more complicated on the outside, they "package" boilers and make neat "boxes" filled with control valves and such. They use time-proven, reliable, comfortable and EFFICIENT devices like TRVs instead of a myriad of zone valves, circulators, mixers, etc.

In this crazy world of uncertaintity the US seems destined to become more isolated, distrusted (even hated) than ever before. What remains of our heavy industry is likely more concerned with retooling for war use than developing any new consumer products. Any REAL reductions in our fuel consumption are more likely to be driven by government-mandated rationing than consumer desire anyway.

Maybe they'll dig out the REALLY old molds and start making solid fuel boilers again and I'll find out if my system still works with gravity and resurrect the coal bin!

Kinda bet

that the company and surroundings have something to do with it as well. <:)

Don't know what your neighbors plan on doing but do know that most Capes are a bit tight space-wise. Do seem to recall many as having generous windows kind of high on the wall so there might be space for some panels.

Does it have the common small hall with open staircase? That might be part of the current problem.

The Able boys

are getting a complete refund on airfare and they told me to bring a stamped birth certificate, as I did. I've never traveled outside the US of A, they could have been more explicit in the info conveyed to me. Nobody was more disappointed than me. If they have a problem, they have my number.

MO

Steve

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

What a commercial........

But no answers to the questions, maybe they were skipped over for marketing purposes. Seems to me (I could be mistaken)That there really is not an answer to the question posed "what savings are realized by these units that justify all the extra investments involved?" We all know that AFUE ratings are not real life representation. So tell me about thermal efficiancies and where you get your numbers from and how the test are conducted.



And since we now have politics involved, Can you tell me what percentage of the R&D is offset by government supplements? Sure R&D is expensive, is it mandated by the government and subsidized?? Is this the same as the windmill theory to where it cost more to make the windings than any savings these units will ever produce?? What is the ROI from these units??


I see alot of cliche's thrown about, and tuff questions that only someone spending alot of time in the fatherland would be able to answer. But I guess it is a waste of time trying to find out (oops sorry wasted energy)what the real differences in fact are!!



Murph' (SOS)
(for your veiwing pleasure
tune in to the vieSSmann channel!!)

Now that we have.......

All had lessons in philosophy of religion. Now what we need to address for all the good folks that frequent "The Wall". Do I need to quote P.T.Barnum here??


How many pleadings do I myself have to do to get you folks to please explain to me HOW you measure your thermal efficiencies, or now the new PC term "system efficiencies". we would like to know step by step by which measures you use to attain these claims. Or are these just calculated numbers ,and if so can you explain your method of calculating these, or again are we to just take your word for it?? Seems to me that to obtain stoichiometric combustion we are not talking 1752*,and exhaust temps of 100* by your own admissions.



Now tell us how after the combustion we cannot obtain 90% with (legitimatley) that you can get a full 90% thermal efficiencies all the time (or better)?? Does the combustion chamber increase and decrease with the flame?? that would be neat to see!! I think the flow of water past the chamber has a great effect on it, but does not lend proof to your claim of 90%.


Tell us by what means you measure these claims of thermal efficiencies, your comparison of apples to grapes don't cut it, all I hear is rhetoric and cliches. your writing is prolific and entertaining, but falls short of getting to the answer of my first question "how do these defy the laws of physics?" or do we re-write the laws as we see needed?? Besides that whorgas spaghetti burner kinda resembles a simple mantle used in gas lanterns.


Murph'