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Soot in boiler - and how do you spell stoichiometric

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seized123
edited September 6 in Oil Heating

I just cleaned my 2 year old Weil-McLain WGO-3 (not 3R) oil boiler that has on it a much older Beckett AFG burner with an F3 head. To my dismay there was soot. Black and all over, though thin and easily removable. I was disappointed, especially since at the last cleaning a year ago (after a year of operation) there was none.

It's past time to clean the electrodes, change the nozzle, etc. (It's been going on two years since the thing was commissioned, I don't know why I didn't change the nozzle when I cleaned the HX and changed the filters and strainer about a year ago.)

So I figured that now before I changed anything out I'd do a smoke and CO2 test, if only to see if something stands out that might cause soot, and to have a baseline for comparison once I did change things out. (This is with my old Bacharach wet kit that I bought used, as I can't seem to justify to myself the expense and calibration hassles of an electronic combustion analyzer that I'd only use once or twice a year—decent ones seem to run over $1K.) The results were:

Temp: 360F at steady state (although when I took it again later it was over 400F, but I figure that was because the first time I really let the boiler cool own first, and the second time it had been running a short while before so maybe there was residual heat affecting the stack temp.)

Draft: -0.3 up top, -.02 over fire

Smoke: Zero

C02: Relatively high at 14.5

Pump pressure: 140 psi

Nozzle: Delevan .85 70B. This is the nozzle specified on the AFG burner itself as well as on Beckett's website for use with this boiler (although technically the decal on the burner says "Hago". And I found a statement on Inspectopedia that says: "Watch out: going from Hago nozzle to Delavan A, B, or W you may need to try the next wider spray angle. E.g. go from 60° to 65° or 70°")

The burner fan is clean, the air shutters look clear, it's warm so a window to the basement was open.

Glad there was zero smoke, not glad that it was 14.5 CO2; anyway I fired up the boiler again and opened the air shutters on the side of the burner all the way—they were already up to the number '9' on the side of the burner, so I went to 10 , as far as it will go, and got a reading of a little less than 14 CO2, not low enough.

So perhaps this post is premature because if I replace the nozzle and it all clears up, great. But I figure any problem with the nozzle (other than it possibly being the wrong nozzle despite the specs) like for example it being clogged, would only reduce the flow of oil, which should result in a greater air/fuel ration, and so a low CO2 reading, not a high one.

So my questions are:

  1. If I clean the electrodes and replace the nozzle and still get high CO2, should I try opening the larger air bands, since the shutters are open all the way? My impression is nobody ever does that and if all is in spec you shouldn't have to.
  2. What about that Inspectopedia idea of going to the next wider spray angle, since Hago was specified on the decal. (But Beckett's spec guide says ".85 x 70B (H)" and I assume the 'H' means Hago, and lists the exact nozzle (no 'H') as an alternate.)
  3. Any other ideas why I might be getting soot, even though I have zero smoke now?
Robert_H

Comments

  • jesmed1
    edited September 6

    We have Beckett AFG's on our WGO-5's, running Delevan 1.0 80B nozzles at 140 psi with F3 heads, and they burn very clean. We just had both boilers serviced, and the tech remarked how clean they were. Maybe try the 80B?

  • @jesmed1 that’s just what Inspectopedia said, go up to the next wider spray angle. Can’t hurt to try.

  • Leave it alone your #s are good except your Co2 is causing smole regardless of what the smoke tester says. Open the air enough to get the C02 to 12 and you will be fine.

    Don't forget when combustion air gets cooler in the winter #s change a little bit. You have to leave a margin.

    Perfect Co2 is around 15 % you cant (and shouldn't ) get near 15%. Run it at 12 maybe 12.5 but thats it no need to change nozzles.

  • Ok @EBEBRATT-Ed, sounds good. But since the thin air shutters are already max open, to get to 12 or so I guess I’d have to open those wider air bands? (Which I’ve never had to touch before.) That would be okay? I guess they are there for a reason.

  • Yes the wide air band is the course adjustment and the other one is the fine adjustment. Just open it a very small amount then fine tune it with the other air band. Make sure to tighten the screws before taking readings. Even just tightening the screws can change the adjustment.

    You draft and smoke seem pretty good. A little air to cut the Co2 and you shouldn't have any more soot.

  • seized123
    edited September 6

    @EBEBRATT-Ed I look forward to doing that tomorrow! I always used to worry that I someday might not have enough margin since the air shutters were so close to max, now I’ll get all the air I need to get to 12 or so.

    I assume that when you say don’t change nozzles you mean don’t change the size and angle, but that I should still swap in a new identical one as a matter of routine yearly maintenance (even though I didn’t do it last year.)

  • Your CO2 is way too high. Your soot came from lack of air. Without a combustion analyzer you aren’t getting the full picture. You don’t know your Excess Air or your CO, so you may get lucky with your adjustments, maybe not.
    Also you’re making your adjustments when the weather is warm. Combustion and draft wlll change as the weather gets colder. Beckett & Carlin publish guides on adjusting CO2 based on temperature.
    Also if your stack temp was 360 gross, you were probably 280-290 net…not good.

  • @seized123 yes change the nozzle keep it the same.

    @HydronicMike

    He is using a wet kit the same thing we did for 100 years before the electronics were invented. If he gets his Co2 down he should be fine. he had his stach temp at 36-400 so he is fine.

    HydronicMike
  • HydronicMike
    edited September 6

    “…If he gets his CO2 down he should be fine…”. Do you or he want to bet his life and his family’s life on that?

    Yes a lot of things that were done 100 years ago are not correct, or best practices today.
    If his gross stack was 360, 280-290 is not good.

    You can have 0-trace of smoke, ‘good?’ CO2, and dangerously high CO…or not. But only an electronic analyzer will tell the tale.
    The late great Jim Davis proved that many times.
    Excess air, CO on light off and shut down are also very important combustion numbers that need to measured. It provides excellent information that combustion is set up properly, running properly, and shutting down properly.
    So if you keep using mediocre, outdated tools, and you get mediocre, outdated results.

  • @HydronicMike

    Draft in the flue and draft over the fire means all combustion products are going up the stack CO or not. If the chimney is plugged all bets are off no matter how the equipment is adjusted.

    I guess we should ban all gas stoves now.

  • seized123
    edited September 6

    @HydronicMike interesting points. Here's how I've been thinking about the general wet kit thing as I've moved towards more dependance on it (comments/corrections from anyone welcome of course):

    My understanding is that the Fyrite/Bacharach wet kit CO2 analyzer is comparable to the electronic combustion analyzers in terms of accuracy, that as far as CO2 is concerned the main difference is convenience, which is admittedly huge for pros who have hundreds of calls a year. (Obviously the CA's give instantaneous readings, which means you can fine tune the air and see instant results while I have to pump the little bladder thing 18 times and play with the dumbbell and let the liquid settle and take a reading every time I change the air, all the while hoping the boiler doesn't stop and I have to let it cool down to run again!) But I think the results are supposed to be very dependable.

    The other big advantage of the CA's is that they measure CO, but I'll get to that below.

    Back to CO2, you mention that "You don’t know your Excess Air or your CO, so you may get lucky with your adjustments, maybe not." True I don't know my CO directly (again, more on that below) but my understanding is that measuring CO2 is the same as measuring excess air, so when I take a measurement I do know it (sort of, see next paragraph), since the Bacharach wet kit has that slide rule thing that tells you what the excess air is given your CO2 measurement, in fact it seems the whole point of measuring the CO2 is to calculate the excess air—and the electronic CA's similarly calculate the excess air internally from their measurements (I think they measure O2 instead of CO2, but it's two sides of the same coin, in fact I think you can measure O2 if you want with the wet kit if you fill it with the blue liquid instead of the red).

    But do I REALLY know my excess air? I think the following might be what @HydronicMike might be thinking about:

    I was surprised to learn a couple years ago on this forum (maybe it was @HydronicMike that mentioned it, for which I'm grateful) that I can get, say, a 12.5% CO2 reading, which on the face of it seems good, yet still unknowingly have very low air and also high CO! How could that be? Most of you guys know why, but it confused the heck out of me; now I think I see that you can still get a seemingly rosy 12.5% if you are a certain distance on the bad side (the left hand side) of the stoichiometric curve (which curve I had to stare at for a few days or weeks to understand).

    It seems to me now that on the bad side of the curve the reason less CO2 is produced (specifically, less than the 15% or so at optimal combustion with just the right amount of air) is because there is not enough air for full combustion, resulting in the CO byproduct which detracts from the amount of CO2 and so you get a lower CO2 percentage (and smoke, and CO) due to this incomplete combustion; whereas on the right hand side (the good side) less CO2 is produced percentagewise because there is just that much more air, more than is needed, but combustion will be relatively complete. It seems to come down to that being on the right hand side with 12.5% due to excess air (cooling the flame, true, and so creating inefficiency) is a whole lot better than 12.5% on the left due to not enough air (creating smoke and CO).

    The takeaway for me is that @HydronicMike you're right, without the CO measurement I'm not 100% positive that my nice 12% reading (which I hope I can get) is on the right side of the curve. @EBEBRATT-Ed mentioned that if I have draft, whatever CO I have is probably going up the chimney; I also wonder if having decent draft almost automatically means my 12% is probably from excess air and not from not enough. But another thing that I've been relying on is this: The stoichiometric curves slopes down on either side of the center ideal point, with the result that if, when I increase the air, I see a drop in CO2 percentage, I can be pretty sure I'm on the right side of the curve and CO should not be a concern. On the other hand, if I increased the air and saw the CO2 rise, I'd probably be on the wrong side of the curve. So far I've only seen it drop with more air, making me pretty confident I'm on the right side of the curve.

    True, more information is always better, and it would be nice to measure CO directly, but I would have to buy a dedicated CO detector appropriate for measuring in a boiler stack, if they make such a thing, which I would do if anyone can recommend something that doesn't cost as much as a combustion analyzer!

    But my thinking is also effected by my last line of defense, which is a 'CO Experts' CO detector (for ambient room air, not something you can stick in a boiler flue), which I first found out about on this forum. The thing goes off if it measures 5 or 7ppm, I forget, which is darned sensitive, several times more sensitive than the standard Home Depot UL approved plug in detectors, of which I also have two. I keep the CO Experts one outside the bedroom, and leave it in the basement for a while after the boiler gets tuned: crude, maybe, but some reassurance.

    But is anybody out there also a homeowner who invested in an electronic analyzer? I'm happy with my wet kit so far, but wouldn't mind another fancy gadget if it were affordable and not just another headache.

    And @EBEBRATT-Ed thanks for your faith in the wet kit and I will try exactly what you said with the air bands.

  • You keep showing your ignorance or inexperience when it comes to combustion. And if there is is depressurization incident, or a blocked flue, or any thing else that could happen to draft, you’re ok with large amounts of CO spilling into the house?
    There are CO thresholds for all appliances-for everyone’s safety.
    I guess you’d rather be lucky than safe.

  • @seized123

    You can buy Bacharach 'Monoxor" which is what we used in the old days. They have some on E-Bay. They used replaceable glass tubes which are also on e-bay.

  • @seized123. I think you’re doing a fine job and you’ll probably be fine. And that’s ok for you as a homeowner.
    Just to make sure, if you happen to know someone with a combustion analyzer (maybe your oil company tech has one), see if you can get them to give you a quick double check.
    Where are you located? Maybe a Wallie here can do a quick drive by.

  • @HydronicMike

    I was a Power Flame and Iron Fireman rep for 20 years and have installed heavy oil and gas burners 100s of them up to 10,000,000 btu/hour. Licensed oil tech since 1973 and a gas fitter for 36 years.

    Don't need you attitude or your insults

  • I’m not insulting you or giving you attitude. There is an industry proven and accepted correct way to do combustion analysis. Times have changed. Combustion analyzers have evolved and improved.
    Times have changed. You seem to have not. Should something go wrong and you had to defend yourself in court from a ‘combustion analysis’ performed by a wet kit, it wouldn’t end well for you.

    Nothing I said about combustion set up/analysis is incorrect.

  • @HydronicMike

    Better do some reading

    Go to Bacharach site and read up on it.

    They tell you themselves that a "Wet Kit" although not as convenient is just as accurate as the electronic versions.

    And new wet kits are still sold.

    They haven't been outlawed yet