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Buffer tank control strategy

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jesmed1
jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,537
edited September 1 in Gas Heating

Meeting this afternoon with sister's GC and HVAC guy to discuss her Burnham 206 gas boiler running a mix of gravity conversion with original large pipe and cast iron rads plus newer baseboard piped in 3/4" copper.

House is 3300 sq ft with 110,000 BTU/hr design heat loss. I did the manual heat loss, informed by actual gas consumption last season. Uninsulated concrete basement is an envelope problem that would benefit from rigid foam board, and I will mention this as an option for improvement.

There are also a number of system improvements that could be made for better efficiency and control. Auto vent damper is one. Buffer tank is another, as boiler is probably short-cycling due to over-zoning (6 total zones, 4 of which on one floor!) And a buffer tank would help solve other problems, such as a cast iron radiator in a distant upstairs bedroom repiped with 3/4" copper, at the end of a gravity conversion loop, so it gets no flow. Only solution I can see is to add a circ to that one 3/4" copper loop, making yet another zone which is worse for efficiency unless we add a buffer tank.

So I'm trying to understand optimum control strategy for a buffer tank, in case that turns out to be an option we decide to pursue. @hot_rod helped with initial tank sizing. 80 gallons looked OK but I decided to do the math for 120 gallons because a larger tank isn't much more expensive and it helps increase run time. So I drew up two different scenarios based on (1) full mixing within a 120 gal buffer tank so that the water inside is always at or close to average temp, and (2) stratified so that hottest water stays on top and coldest on bottom. I understand that stratified is best for radiators, because they will get the hottest possible water from the top of the tank. However, isn't stratified also worse for boiler efficiency, because now the boiler supply temp needs to be higher in order to reach the higher temp at the top of the stratified tank? Note that in the stratified example, boiler SWT has to end at 170 instead of 160 in the fully mixed example.

These two pics illustrate the two different cases, fully mixed tank vs. stratified tank. Both case represent the minimum run time case starting with 120 F avg water temp and ending with 140 F avg water temp, for a total input of 20,000 BTU into the tank from a 9-minute boiler run. So 9 minutes would be the minimum boiler run time. ODR would raise the target average water temp higher than 140 in colder weather, but 140 would be the minimum target temperature in warmer weather. And the boiler would have a thermostatic bypass set to 130 minimum.

So here's my understanding of how that would work.

IMG_20260901_100659766.jpg IMG_20260901_100730033.jpg

So my questions are:

  1. Are these schematics more or less correct?
  2. Which scheme is better in this situation?
  3. Is the variable speed circ in the second schematic the right way to get higher water temps needed for a stratified tank?
  4. Is the tank middle the best place for a temp sensor, since it will give a tank average temp regardless of stratification or full mixing?

There is also the option of full replacement with a mod-con which would solve all these problems, but she doesn't know how long she'll stay in the house, so up front cost is a factor. She could save 30% by spending $20k on a new mod-con, or maybe 15% by adding a vent damper, increasing Tstat swing and adding a buffer tank for maybe $10k. She'll have to decide which way to go.

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 27,718

    At some risk of being a pest… unless the buffer tank is powered by an immersed heat exchanger — in which case it really isn't a buffer tank — the water in it is going to be mixed any time you have circulation. You can minimize the mixing with a dip tube and low flow rates, but you can't avoid it.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,919

    I agree with Brother Jamie, installing an automatic damper would be more practical.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 28,136

    A few reasons for trying to maintain a stratified tank.

    Screenshot 2026-09-01 at 9.54.26 AM.png Screenshot 2026-09-01 at 9.54.51 AM.png

    While outdoor reset will maximize the boilers efficiency, heating only to the required temperature based on outdoor, it will lessen the amount of energy stored in the tank compared to a tank maintained at say 170F. Also the drawdown is extended with a hotter trank.

    The con is more heat loss through the tank insulation, and more fuel use maintaining a hotter tank. So that is one decision to make.

    Also if you pipe the buffer as a 3 pipe, two advantages. The lowest temperature water returns to the boiler to keep efficiency up. More important with mod cos and heat pumps, but still some value with a CI boiler.

    The 3 pipe allows the return flow to engage the lower volume of the tank while not upsetting the stratification. Both 2 and 3 pipe are direct to load. The tank is only engaged when the load is lower than what the boiler is supplying, or at the end of all heat calls, recharging the "battery".

    If the boiler flow is 10 gpm, and all zones are open requiring 10 gpm, no flow goes into or through the tank. But with you boiler being so over-sized, I don't see that happening.

    Here is a graphic showing various buffer piping arrangments. All of the options have a use and all have pros and cons.

    The taller the tak, the more pronounced the thermocline.

    Screen Shot 2022-08-26 at 1.21.06 PM.png

    https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/media/external-file/Idronics_17_NA_Thermal%20storage%20in%20hydronic%20systems.pdf

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 28,136

    How does a vent damper hgelp with a grossly oversized boiler short cycling?

    Also the tank always stratifies, properly piped, when all the zone loads are off. The boiler loads, and stratifies the tank in that condition

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,537
    edited September 1

    @hot_rod OK thank you. So it sounds like 3-pipe would be best. That would also help in the one loop of high mass gravity conversion that has a temperature drop of 30+ F with a flow rate of about 6 gpm. Because of the high mass in that loop and relatively low flow rate, response time is long, and a 4-pipe buffer could prolong the response time if the boiler was recharging the tank when that zone called. In the 3-pipe config, boiler output can go directly into that loop for fastest response, and the remainder of the flow rate through boiler will go either through bypass to maintain return at 130, or into the tank.

    I will take another try at a schematic using 3-pipe and stratified tank. What about the variable speed circ to get higher water temps at the top of the tank as needed with ODR? And is my thermostatic bypass set up correctly?

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 28,136

    Yeah, you don't want a 4 pipe. The tank is always engaged, and there is some lag.

    There are a number of tanks built in Europe designed specifically to stratify. I've seen these at solar shows and the recent Mostra Expo. Now they add resistance elements to take any excessive PV generation directly to the tank.

    They have active stratificatio tanks also with pumps worhing into the tank at various levels.

    I don't know that the cost of the pump and controller for a variable speed is worth it?

    There is a way to use a variable speed setpoint pump as the return protection, instead of a 3 way thermostatic.

    Screenshot 2026-09-01 at 11.33.09 AM.png Screenshot 2026-09-01 at 11.36.37 AM.png
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,537
    edited September 1

    @hot_rod Thanks, that is an impressive range of storage tanks.

    We met with the HVAC contractor this afternoon, and he understood the situation at my sister's house. He said he's seen a lot of older houses in her town with original gravity conversion systems that have been hacked up over the years and Frankensteined with baseboards and too many zones. He did agree that a buffer tank on the existing boiler would help, but ultimately I agreed with him that a new mod-con was the best solution. He installs Lochinvar and Viessman, and the GC who was there too said he has a Lochinvar and is happy with it. Sister also had a Lochinvar in the previous house. So it will probably be a Lochinvar, with a smaller buffer tank than we would have put on the existing boiler, but still useful for the small zones. It will be more $$ up front, but probably best to rip the Band Aid off now and do it right.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 28,136

    I agree the mod con is a better solution. A 110,00 will turndown to 8,000. With the anti cycling and ramp delay functions, you should not need a buffer.

    IF you still want to buffer, these small ZXilmet tanks are a good option 7, 14 and 21 gallon versions.

    Screenshot 2026-09-01 at 5.53.30 PM.png
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,537

    @hot_rod Thanks, I tried to convince him that a 110 would be sufficient, but he was more comfortable with a 155 with a buffer tank. I figured it wasn't worth arguing.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 28,136

    Bummer, the 155 only turns down to 15,000

    But still much better than a no turn down CI boiler

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,537

    @hot_rod That's what I figured too. A small buffer tank won't add that much cost to the install and will be useful anyway. Still a win.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 28,136

    I would add an air separator on the red line out of the boiler before the tank.

    There can be multiple pumps on that header at the tank

    Screenshot 2026-09-01 at 8.18.38 PM.png

    I wish the Zilmet tanks had 1-1/4 or 1-1/2" ports.

    If you use the small 7 gallon, use a 1" male to 1-1/2" copper adapter to make that header 1-1/2", if you have multiple pumps on it

    Screenshot 2026-09-01 at 8.28.51 PM.png Screenshot 2026-09-01 at 8.31.11 PM.png

    If you go with a Lochinvar Knight it comes with a variable speed circulator for the boiler loop.

    There was an error displaying this embed.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream