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Boiler only fires up when indirect water heater pump is on

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haunt
haunt Member Posts: 24

I have a Burnham oil fired boiler with an indirect water tank. I also have a solid fuel boiler in tandem with the oil boiler. A circulation pump just keeps the hot water flowing between the two when the wood boiler is hot. This summer I switched the Nest thermostat from Heat to Cool. I have been keeping a small wood/coal fire going as my wife thinks that endless hot water must always be flowing. A few mornings when the wood fire died out, I noticed that the oil boiler had a low temperature, like 95 degrees. It did not fire up when it fell below the low limit. I figured a bad aquastat sensor (Honeywell L7224A,C). BUT if I turn up the thermostat on the indirect water heater, once the contacts click shut and the circulator starts, the oil boiler fires up. If I turn the water heater thermostat down, once the contacts break the boiler turns off again. Very confusing. What do you think?

Comments

  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,713

    Do you still have hot water?

    Prob not an issue

  • haunt
    haunt Member Posts: 24

    Yes. when the indirect water heater temp. falls below the setting and the pump turns on the oil boiler fires up. It runs as usual until the boiler high limit is reached then shuts off normally.

  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,713

    Then no issue. Dont be concerned.

    haunt
  • haunt
    haunt Member Posts: 24

    The boiler would always fire up in the summer for the only reason that the boiler temp fell below the low limit. Why would it not be doing that now? In winter, the boiler would fire up when the wood/coal boiler couldn't keep up and the low limit was reached. That's my real concern. That it won't fire up then and I don't want to figure it out when its 20°.

  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,713

    You will have plenty of time. If it making hot water it will make heat.

    haunt
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,290

    Since you have an indirect water tank you don't need to maintain the boiler water temperature to have hot water. The Honeywell L7224A,C may be working as configured.

    You are expecting this.

    image.png

    But it may be configured for this.

    image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
    hauntRobert_H
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 2,542

    What is the problem? You're not heating the space right now, so of course it's not going to fire unless the indirect calls.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 20,711

    Maybe the op thinks the oil boiler should maintain boiler temp when the coal fire is out. I think that is what @109A_5 is getting at.

    @haunt

    The boiler should run for heat when the thermostat calls for heat or when the indirect thermostat calls for DHW

    haunt
  • haunt
    haunt Member Posts: 24

    Thank you, You are exactly right. I thought that the oil boiler would always maintain temp between the low and high limit. Am I wrong?

  • haunt
    haunt Member Posts: 24

    Thanks. I just never noticed that the boiler temp was dropping so low and got worried about it.

  • haunt
    haunt Member Posts: 24

    @109A_5 

    Thanks for all of that. I don't understand most of that but I guess that it made me realize that you and

    kcopp are correct and it's probably working as designed.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,290

    " my wife thinks that endless hot water must always be flowing "

    Another way of thinking about it, apparently there is no thermostatic control of the solid fuel boiler's fuel so you have to keep it hot enough to maintain DHW (Domestic Hot Water) usage and not use any Oil.

    If you let the solid fuel boiler go out you would have no DHW, but you have the Oil as a backup, so you do have adequate DHW.

    Since you have an indirect water tank you don't need to maintain the boiler's water temperature to have hot water. So you don't want to burn Oil just to keep the Boiler's water temperature at or above above a minimum temperature. There is no need to, and that would waste Oil.

    As an example; If you went on vacation and the solid fuel boiler just went out, you would not want to have the Oil boiler maintaining a minimum temperature. Rather the Oil boiler would just fire enough to maintain the indirect water tank's temperature. With no DHW usage (your are on vacation) the DHW demand would be minimal. So minimal Oil usage.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
    haunt
  • haunt
    haunt Member Posts: 24
  • haunt
    haunt Member Posts: 24

    Thank you ALL for sharing your knowledge.

    So when I switch back to the Heat mode, then the boiler sould kick on when the low limit is reached and maintain a minumum temperature?

  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 2,542

    A cold start boiler only runs when there is a call for heat- they don't "maintain temperature" unless there is an active call for heat from the thermostat or indirect. If you switch to heat mode right now and set the stat to 65*, the boiler still won't fire unless the air temp falls below 65* (for example).

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 12,602

    You have your L7224 configured as a cold start boiler. that means the burner only operates when something needs heat (something = rooms in winter or water tank all year)

    Untitled Image

    So if nothing is calling for heat, the burner does not operate. That is all you need. There is no low limit needed to maintain a minimum water temperature in either the summer or the winter.

    For example, on December 14 of any given winter, the outdoor temperature reaches 75°F at 2:30 in the afternoon. No rooms need heat, and since everyone is at school or work, there is no need for hot water, so the indirect water heater does not call for heat. At that exact time, the boiler temperature may drop as low as 64°F, or whatever the ambient temperature in the basement happens to be. No low limit is needed.

    Setting the thermostat to HEAT does not automatically require a low limit on the boiler. The boiler is allowed to cool to the boiler room temperature because there is no need for heat.

    This is actually an energy-saving feature of a cold-start boiler. If no heat is needed, the burner does not operate just to maintain a minimum boiler temperature.

    So when you say, "then the boiler should kick on when the low limit is reached," that is not correct. On a cold-start boiler, that would simply be a waste of fuel.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    haunt
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 12,602

    To make it a little more clear, let's use a more typical December day. One or more heating zones may call for heat at different intervals. Zone 1 calls while Zone 2 is off. Zone 1 becomes satisfied, and the boiler temperature starts to drop from 180°F to 148°F when Zone 2 happens to call for heat. At that point, the burner operates to heat Zone 2, and the boiler temperature rises again until Zone 2 is satisfied.

    The boiler temperature may then drop to 138°F when you decide to take a shower. The indirect DHW tank calls for heat, and the boiler temperature increases back to 180°F during your shower. When your shower is finished, the DHW tank reaches its set point, the burner shuts off, and the boiler temperature drops to 157°F when Zone 1 calls for heat again... and so on.

    In this scenario, the boiler temperature always seems to stay above the so-called "low limit" temperature. However, that is not happening because of a low-limit setting on either the Nest or the L7224. It is simply a coincidence in the timing of the different calls for heat that keeps the boiler temperature above the boiler room's ambient temperature, which might be around 64°F.

    Does that make sense?

    To make that happen set your L7224 low limit temperature to OFF. That will make you system a "Cold Start" boiler and result in the lowest operating cost.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • haunt
    haunt Member Posts: 24

    So what is the purpose of the "Low Limit" on the aquastat?

  • haunt
    haunt Member Posts: 24
    edited July 10

    Does that make sense?

    Thanks Ed, it does make sense. I just thought that the "Low Limit" kept the boiler at whatever that limit is set for. In that case I still don't understand the purpose of a Low Limit.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,290
    edited July 10

    @haunt " In that case I still don't understand the purpose of a Low Limit. "

    Some boiler / DHW systems only have only a coil of pipe inside the boiler to heat the DHW. So no DHW storage tank like your indirect tank.

    With the tankless coil system the boiler water has to maintain a minimum temperature so there is DHW. The cold water gets heated as it flows through the coil inside the boiler.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 12,602

    The L7224 comes in several different configurations, and most of them can be configured as either a cold-start boiler or a minimum boiler temperature boiler for maintaining the tankless coil temperature.

    You are asking why you might want to maintain a minimum boiler temperature. That applies to a boiler that has a tankless coil installed inside the boiler. It is not the best approach, but it is somewhat economical because you save the cost of purchasing a separate water heater tank and all of the accessories needed to operate it.

    Water heaters with storage tanks include your indirect water heater need a circulator pump aa thermostat and extra piping to connect it to your boiler.There are also gas-fired automatic water heaters where the burner is located under the tank and is controlled by a thermostat. There are electric water heaters with electric heating elements inside the tank, but they typically cost two to three times more to operate because electricity is generally much more expensive than oil or gas for heating water. There are even oil-fired water heaters that have their own dedicated oil burner to heat the water in the tank. With those you have a second boiler sucking oil from that fuel tank.

    Every one of those tank-type water heaters adds cost to the mechanical system in your home. If you purchase a boiler with a tankless coil, however, you do not need to buy a separate water heater. The same L7224 control can maintain the boiler water surrounding the tankless coil at a minimum temperature all the time. Then, whenever you want to take a shower, need a cup of hot water for a recipe in the kitchen, or want to wash dishes, the hot water is immediately available.

    That is the purpose of the low-limit setting.

    Since you do not have a tankless coil in your boiler, you do not need to maintain a minimum boiler temperature. The low-limit feature is included in the L7224 because the same control is also used on boilers that do have tankless coils. It is there for those installations—not for yours.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 2,542

    Low limit is essentially a range to maintain WHEN heating. If the boiler produces more BTU than the space is using, the water temp will rise. Instead of trying to maintain a constant temp of, say, 180 degrees by starting and stopping every 10 seconds, they employ a range to allow less frequent cycling. Low limit might be 160 with a high limit of 180, so that if there is a call for heat while the boiler is still 170, it's not starting the boiler until that temp falls below 160.

    EdTheHeaterManhaunt
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 12,602

    Not exactly. @GroundUp. The person who taught you that concept was mistaken.

    The purpose of the low limit is to maintain a minimum boiler-water temperature for a tankless domestic hot-water coil. A reverse-acting aquastat is usually involved. It opens on a temperature drop and stops the circulator from operating when cold return water from the radiators lowers the boiler temperature enough to create a “not enough hot water” condition.

    The burner continues to operate while the circulator is off, allowing the boiler-water temperature to recover sufficiently for domestic hot-water use. Once the boiler temperature rises by the amount established by the low-limit differential, the control allows the circulator to operate again and space heating can continue.

    Here is the official explanation from Honeywell/Resideo:

    Screenshot 2026-07-11 at 3.53.31 PM.png

    ALSO. This low limit situation does not apply to @haunt since they are not using a tankless water heater inside the boiler.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    EBEBRATT-EdGroundUp
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 28,010

    Boilers piped in tandem? Are they piped so the oil boiler is not heating up the wood boiler?

    The wood boiler becomes a cooling tower when you circulate hw from the oil fired boiler through it, increasing the oil consumption.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 2,542
    edited July 12

    @EdTheHeaterMan that would be true if we were talking about a hot start boiler with a tankless coil, however, we are talking about a cold start boiler with an indirect so what I said was indeed accurate.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,290

    IMO it seems like @GroundUp up is referring to the High Limit differential or hysteresis not the Low Limit. The Low Limit settings and functionality are separate and unique features to the L7224A,C model that @haunt has.

    image.png

    Some Low Limit examples from the manual.

    image.png image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 12,602
    edited July 13

    Still disagree @GroundUp. the internal wiring does not support your statement:

    Low limit is essentially a range to maintain WHEN heating.

    Then you stated:

    If the boiler burner produces more BTU than the space is using, the water temp will rise. Instead of trying to maintain a constant temp of, say, 180 degrees by starting and stopping every 10 seconds, they employ a range to allow less frequent cycling.

    To be more clear I changed the word Boiler with the word Burner. The L8124 with the white double aquastat mounted on the circuit board only has one dial for the high limit. It has a fixed 10° differential and that will keep it from having a 10 second off short cycle. the low limit with the adjustable differential does not come into play once the high limit opens. there is no holding circuit between the low limit switch and the burner the prevents the burner from operating.

    Then you continues with

    Low limit might be 160 with a high limit of 180, so that if there is a call for heat while the boiler is still 170, it's not starting the boiler burner until that temp falls below 160.

    If you look at the B1 terminal you can clearly see that the hot from L1 goes thru the 1K1 relay contacts (the ones that operate the burner) directly thru the high limit to the B1 terminal. (follow the red line)

    image.png

    The low-limit contacts have no effect on the burner when the boiler-water temperature is above the 160°F low-limit setting. The low limit operates the burner only when the boiler-water temperature falls below 160°F regardless of a call for heat or not.

    When the boiler temperature reaches the 180°F high-limit setting, the burner stops, while the circulator is allowed to continue moving heat from the boiler to the radiators.

    image.png

    The low limit does not prevent the burner from restarting when the boiler temperature falls to 170°F, as you suggested. Your trainer gave you incorrect information many years ago.

    Now I realize that @haunt ’s system uses an L7224 electronic aquastat. However, I used the L8124 to illustrate the operating logic that the electronic control is emulating. It is designed to operate according to the same basic logic.

    The L7224 may also include features for use with an indirect water heater and outdoor reset control combination that the analogue control does not have.  but it DOES NOT use the low limit setting to add to the differential of the high limit as @GroundUp has indicated

    The fact that there is a solid-fuel boiler in the system has nothing to do with how the oil boiler operates through the L7224 control. It will still operate the same way. When the wood boiler maintains the boiler-water temperature above 180°F, the oil burner will not operate, while the circulators for the different zones will continue to operate.

    Adding another boiler does not somehow change the way the control operates.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    GGross
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 12,602

    I realize that @GroundUp is only trying to be helpful by answering @haunt's query:

    "Thanks Ed, it does make sense. I just thought that the 'Low Limit' kept the boiler at whatever that limit is set for. In that case I still don't understand the purpose of a Low Limit."

    from the other day. And that is great that he is trying to offer his experience and what he has learned and believes. What I have a problem with is: the helpful information is not 100% correct. I dont like it when incorrect information is distributd as the gospel truth, so as much as I can I try to offer the real information with my experience but also the proof that is from more than "just taking my word for it".

    I hope this helps to make it as clear as mud.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    GGross
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 20,711

    @EdTheHeaterMan description is correct. the HL and LL are two different controls although if not set correctly they can overlap and intermingle on each other's operation.

    The HL stops the burner when the water temp is approaching the highest temp you want under any circumstances. Normal high limit settings are 180, 190 or 200 degrees. Because of the water pressure in a closed loop system you could run 210 or 220 if you needed to…….and that was promoted back in the 50s and 60s.

    Now most set them at 180 I am a 190 degree guy myself. The boiler water temp is driven by the radiation installed. Set the HL too low and the burner will cycle while trying to heat the building. Setting the HL at 190 will give the radiation more output to heat the building but the radiation CONTROLs the water temp the HL does not keep the boiler at that temp it just limits the boiler temp, hence high limit.

    The LL low limit is a different animal. It is only needed if the boiler has a tankless coil for DHW or if for some reason someone wants to have a hot start boiler. The LL should be set to keep the boiler water at the lowest temperature needed to provide domestic hot water in conjunction with the tankless coil thermostatic valve.

    The LL has another function. If the DHW is being drawn and you have a call for heat at the same time you could be standing in a cold shower if the boiler water temp drops too low. For this reason, if the boiler water drops to low the LL will stop the circulating pump(s) to stop the call for heat and insure DHW production.

    EdTheHeaterManGGross
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 2,542

    I stand corrected. I have never seen a cold start boiler with two separate aquastats onboard, and the "cut-in" is often referred to as the "low limit" which is why I said what I said. Pardon the misinformation.

    GGross