Any new feelings about Stay Brite 8 soldering vs brazing?

PeteA · August 7

I did a quick search and I know this is not an exact science type question that is answered specifically but seems like more of an individuals experience and what they've been doing in their own installs.

I am curious since I did a quick search on here and it seems like the last conversation about this was a several years ago. So I was wondering if now a few years later if anyone has had any change of mind if they would now use the stay brite 8 on your jobs or if you're still a braze only person/shop.

I've personally never brazed so I have nothing to relate to on that but I have soldered quite a bit so that's the only reason I wonder why one of the other. Is one stronger than the other? Does one last longer than the other? Is the flux a proven issue with the refrigerants?

pecmsg · August 7

I do commercial refrigeration. For controls, valves and parts that may be removed and or changed down the road it makes life much easier.
Line sets we still braze with N2.

I do NOT use it on discharge lines steel to copper. A few issues in the past so back to 45% on that joint.

PeteA · August 7

@pecmsg

Thanks for the info, for the linesets is that your method only because its a commercial job or refrigeration work or would you always braze regardless of residential AC or commercial work.

pecmsg · August 7

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1861878#Comment_1861878

depends on the situation

EBEBRATT-Ed · August 8

Back in the day a lot of guys used Stay Brite on everything. I wouldn't use it on discharge lines though. And it for the most part held up very well.

I too used to Stay Brite filter driers and expansion valves…things that may need replacement, but I sometimes brazed them as well.

Everyone has their own opinion, I just trust brazing more. My opinion, and you can fill gaps easier.

The following is a list of pros and cons:

JW Harris says Stay Brite joints are stronger than brazing because the tubing is not annealed

No nitrogen purge needed with Stay Brite

Stay Brite may introduce flux

Some say codes require brazing due to the low temp (500deg) melting point of Stay Brite in a fire…phosgene gas an issue for firefighters.

Equipment does not come out of a factory with Stay Brite joints.

Some say Stay Brite will not take high pressures needed for 410A, 454B and R32

Don't shoot any arrows. I am just listing some items. Both have pros and cons.

mattmia2 · August 8

i think the pressure thing is not true in sizes of tubing used in common dx systems.

EBEBRATT-Ed · August 8

I have piped DX systems that were 3 1/8" OD

PeteA · August 8

Thanks @EBEBRATT-Ed

I appreciate the info it’s purely for my own curiosity since it seems like folks on both sides seem dug in to their techniques.

I saw a YouTube where a guy did a pressure test of each method and in both cases the copper pipe failed first. So as far as pressure I think he got up to 7,000 or 8000 psi in the test.

I’ve read the gap filling in many places and that seems like a great reason but I would think that with the additional time setting up purging and other prep work with the oxygen/acetylene that a pro can remake a tube end or install a fitting pretty quickly also.

It’s really interesting and a skill that I think I’m going to try (on some scrap not an actual job) out since it looks pretty cool yet spooky getting everything that hot.

ChrisJ · August 8

I recently had to move a lineset in our shop and I bought some Staybrite 8 as well as the Stayclean flux, both paste and liquid. After doing a few tests I decided to braze everything using Staysilv 15. The reason was I didn't feel like cleaning every joint and dealing with flux. So, I brazed all of the joints because it was quicker and easier. Silphos isn't anywhere near as picky with your pipe and fittings being spotless as soft soldering.

My current opinion on it is the connection strength etc isn't an issue but I've never brazed / soldered anything near a compressor, so I can't comment on that. It's having to clean everything (just like soft soldering plumbing) without getting abrasives in your tubing, and then try to be extremely clean with flux. So, if it's something you can braze without concerns, and you've already got your nitrogen bottle out of the truck and connected I'd stick with silphos. If it's in a tight area, or something that you can't really get too hot, I'd take the time and use Staybrite.

With Staybrite you don't need to purge with nitrogen, which can make some jobs a lot easier.

I think both have their uses and you just need to decide which is the easier / better solution for each job. Like I said, I haven't put a new compressor in, and I have heard guys say you really need to braze those connections, so for now I don't have an opinion on that.

mattmia2 · August 8

if you are good at controlling the heat you can fill gaps with soft solder too. it gets more liquid as it gets hotter so if you go for just melting it is less fluid and will fill a bigger gap. look at how they do bodywork with lead or wipe lead pipe.

EBEBRATT-Ed · August 8

That is the difference between Stay Brite #8 and regular Stay Brite and 95/5. and Silver Brite

I haven't looked this up recently so I could be off but 95/5 was always hard to work with because the temp it melts at (going up) and the temp it freezes at (going down) is the same temp you get no mushy middle ground so very difficult to fill gaps . I always avoided 95/5.

Silver Brite is different it melts and freezes at different temps so you can fill gaps.

I believe that the difference between regular Stay Brite & #8 is for the same reason and that #8 is easier to work with.

mattmia2 · August 8

there's crystally and there's flows at different rates. they try to get an alloy where the crystally range is very small because if it moves in that range it makes a weak joint

PeteA · August 9

@EBEBRATT-Ed and @mattmia2 so is the main thing with brazing that it just sits around the rim of the flare bonding the 2 pipes around the fitting or is it expected to flow into the flare also but brazing does it via a vacuum created by the heated air as opposed to the cleaning flux wicking a path like the solder seems to do to fill the flare? I'm just curious because of the way the last 2 posts from you guys mention the gaps (which I interpret as a loose fit between the pipe and the flare) and the joint (the spot where the top of the flare and the pipe meet) so that make me picture the braze sitting more on the top lip of the cup and around the pipe just outside the cup.

Thanks again for all your info this is great info for others like me that sees both things mentioned but don't really experience the difference because we may only have done one or the other.

EBEBRATT-Ed · August 9

Brazing flows into the fitting just like solder no difference. With brazing you can get away with no flux because the chemicals in the brazing rod take care of that. True that you can "puddle" some braze material on the outside and some people do that (I do) but its not really necessary

With brazing you don't really need to clean the pipe and fittings unless they are really oxidized although it doesn't hurt and I usually clean them for best results.

get some scrap tubing and fittings and try it and then un solder it you will see how it flows. best to practice before do a real job

PeteA · August 9

@EBEBRATT-Ed Thanks I do plan on trying it out on some scrap.

My buddy is going to do the brazing on the equipment I recently installed since he has done this type of work in the past and I don't want to make this the first job I try it out on solo :). I can do 99% of the work but I know when to tap out and call a friend on those 1% spots.

Any new feelings about Stay Brite 8 soldering vs brazing?

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