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Modern hot water radiators - what do I need?

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Dsisson
Dsisson Member Posts: 100

Folks, some time ago, I posted this discussion:

Essentially:

  1. I have purchased modern aluminum radiators. They have a 1/2" NPT connection. I can connect an any of the 4 corners of the radiator. This is a view of the rear of the radiator:
radiators.jpg

2) The boiler is a Navien, and it has 3 zones, each with it's own thermostat and zone valve. The zone valves look like this:

taco zone valve.jpg

3) I'm planning on running out 3/4" copper supply and return lines. Each radiator will be individually connected to supply and return, thusly:

piping.jpg

4) I'm trying to figure out the need for valve at the end of each radiator. I understand that there are two types of valves - the thermostatic valve and the lock shield valve. My understanding is that the thermostatic valve goes on the input side and the lock shield on the return side of the radiator (correct?)

Thermostatic:

thermostatic valve.jpg

Lock Shield:

lock shield.jpg

5) I'm trying to determine what I need to buy for these valves.

a) Do I need them at all? I have these situations:

  • Radiators that are in the same room as the thermostat - I'd think these DON'T need a valve, since the thermostat will turn the system on and off, right?
  • Radiators that are in a bathroom - I'd think these do NOT need a valve because a thermostatic valve might trigger just on shower steam, right?
  • At least one radiator on the system should NOT have a valve so we allow water to circulate no matter what, right?

b) Do I really need both a thermostatic valve AND a lock shield? I see:

  • the lock shield is really the same valve as the thermostatic, it just has a allen key adjustment instead of a hand turn (am I right about this)?
  • Why do I need to control the flow on both ends of the radiator? why not just one end?

Thanks much for any help you can provide. I just want to make sure I buy the correct valves and in the correct quantity. I'm used to hot water baseboard systems that don't have any sort of thermostatic valving, they just have the zone valves and thermostat on the wall in each zone.

Comments

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,881
    edited June 22

    How big are the zones? If they aren't huge, a Monoflo system might work well and be easier to install.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • You'll gets lots of differing opinions on your situation. Mine is:

    • You don't need thermostatic radiator valves (TRV's) on radiators in the same room as the thermostat.
    • For those radiators without TRV's, I use lockshield valves on both the supply and return in case you want to work on or remove the radiator. It isolates the radiator without having to drain the entire system.
    • The lockshield valve is not intended to control flow. It's just a shutoff.
    • A TRV on a bathroom radiator or towel warmer? Yes on the radiator, no on the towel warmer. Guess why?
    • If you want to install TRV's on all the radiators in the zone, there's a work-around. Install a pressure differential bypass on the zone piping in the boiler room. Dead-heading the pump is a concern, but don't let it influence the use of a TRV.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    PC7060
  • Dsisson
    Dsisson Member Posts: 100

    Zone 1 = 3 radiators at approximately 5500 BTU each. two rooms total.

    Zone 2 = also 3 radiators, same size, they are all in one room

    Zone 3 = 9 radiators, same size. Three rooms total.

    I would think that zones 1 and 2 could be monoflow, but zone 3 should be 2 pipe?

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,881
    edited June 22

    It can be done, but you may need a larger main for that zone. As a very general rule of thumb, each size of pipe will carry the same flow as two pipes of the next smaller size. Since you have 9 radiators with 1/2" connections, that may mean using at least 1-1/4" pipe.

    Bell & Gossett still makes Monoflo fittings, and they now have what looks like an online design tool. It's here:

    https://www.xylem.com/en-us/brands/bell-gossett/selection-sizing-cad-esp-online/

    If the boiler requires a near-constant flow rate when running, pipe it primary-secondary. This decouples the boiler flow (constant) from the system flow (which can change).

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 25,281

    How much control do you want? Do you prefer a wall thermostat or a control on the radiator?

    Different names for these valves, some call them lock shields, some call the convertible valves. This 220 convertible out of the box it is a valve that can be used to shut off flow by turning the white cap.

    Various types of actuator heads are available to add on.

    Zone 1 two bedrooms? do you want individual control?

    Zone 2 all three on one zone

    Zone 3 do you want 3 controls?

    There are a few different piping options homerun, series, parallel, monoflo.

    https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/media/external-file/01034_NA.pdf

    Screenshot 2025-06-22 at 12.17.36 PM.png Screenshot 2025-06-22 at 12.17.06 PM.png
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • You've drawn a 2-pipe, direct return system and if you're willing to do the work, it's a good choice. However, if you change it to an indirect return system, it will self-balance, with or without TRV's.

    Does anyone still install Monoflow systems? Such a PITA to purge.

    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    GGross
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,147

    You can overdo the zoning . If you do a heat loss and size the piping and the rads right all you should need is a balancing valve on each rad. The only reason for trvs is if you suspect some rooms will overheat. Trvs will not give you more heat but can reduce overheating

    It better to size everything than to fight with TRVs and balancing should only be minor adjustments.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,699

    Do not use a MonoFlo® or diverter tee system with TRVs. And I would caution you with designing a MonoFlo® type system. It may not be as easy as it looks. You will need to understand the flow patterns and pressure drops of each radiator on the zone (loop). You need to then know how to use this selection chart in order to select the pipe sizes and appropriate tee fittings.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    hot_rod
  • Dsisson
    Dsisson Member Posts: 100

    The zone with 9 radiators has the bedrooms. Pretty much everything else could be controlled by the thermostats.

    I'm only a bit concerned that the bedrooms might need some local control.

    Would there be any issue if I piped everything in without valves, if I'm not concerned about removing a single radiator? It's easy enough to drain the system.

    I guess my only real concern is that 2 bedrooms might over or under heat because they aren't controlled by the thermostat (although they are right next to the room w/the thermostat).

    Honestly, this seems to be the same as a baseboard system, just a different style radiator.

    There is a variable speed pump that senses temp on the supply and return lines.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 25,281

    The whole purpose of zoning is comfort control, possibly some small energy savings.

    So it depends on how you plan on using the rooms. with variable use bedrooms it is nice to have the individual control. Bathroom control is nice for shoulder season, before the main house needs total heat.

    At the very least leave options to easily add a zone control down the road.

    A delta P type circulator is best for variable zoned systems.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    EdTheHeaterMan
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 25,281

    It's been a few years since we did an Idronic issue on zoning. Some ideas and piping options here.

    https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/media/external-file/Idronics_5_NA_Zoning%20hydrionic%20systems.pdf

    Idronics issue 36 in the works looks at more options, here are some teasers.

    Screenshot 2025-06-22 at 1.40.34 PM.png

    Screenshot 2025-06-22 at 1.41.16 PM.png Screenshot 2025-06-22 at 1.40.06 PM.png Screenshot 2025-06-22 at 1.40.19 PM.png
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,316

    separate mains may be hard to purge too. Home run to manifolds will make purging easier but you can bleed or purge with separate mains, just likely to have to visit each emitter.

    If those radiators are aluminum on the water side you will have to keep inhibiter in the system fluid and monitor the chemistry.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,699

    Not all heating systems are supposed to be purged to get the air out. The parallel return two pipe and the reverse return twu pipe systems are designed to let the air out of each radiator using a manual vent at the top of each radiator. Installing one valve on each radiator will allow you to control how much heat is released by that radiator by partially closing the valve on a radiator, that radiator will produce less heat. It has worked for many years and there have also been many failures in balancing system using this design. The key is proper maintenance, like exercising the valves at least once a year. Leaving a valve in the full open position for 40+ years and expecting it to work perfectly one day in the far future is not always the best plan of action.

    Another thing that the one valve design offers is the fact that you can close off the flow to one radiator but you can not remove that radiator from the system with only one side of the radiator shut off. You must close off both the inlet and the outlet of a radiator in order to remove, it and still maintain water pressure sufficient to operate the heat in all the other rooms.

    You actually need to think about how you want the system to operate. With only one radiator calling for heat, the boiler will operate. That is called micro-zoning and that can lead to several problems including short cycling of the burner and circulator. Individual room thermostats can get expensive and may add to the difficulty factor when trouble shooting a no heat situation. For example I had an electrician destroy a zone control by trying many different combinations of wiring and pulling out and swapping plug in relays, when there was no heat in one of the zones of his home. When I arrived that evening, I found a frozen pipe on the problem zone. Now he needs a new zone control and to pay me for thawing out a frozen pipe. Luckily the pipe did not burst. So he has heat that night with that zone circulator operating on one of the other thermostats and working relays left in that control.

    Keeping things simple is often the best design, then use old school methods to regulate the room temperature as needed. I find that placing the wired thermostat in the coldest room will allow that room to get comfortable, the other rooms that overheat can then be regulated by restricting the water flow to the radiators in the hotter rooms.

    If you are designing the system from scratch, you should just do a room by room load calculation and install the proper size radiators in each room. That is the best way to balance the system. One size radiator for each room is not always the best design. Select the radiator to match the room's needs.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,147

    @Edtheheaterman said

    "Keeping things simple is often the best design, then use old school methods to regulate the room temperature as needed. I find that placing the wired thermostat in the coldest room will allow that room to get comfortable, the other rooms that overheat can then be regulated by restricting the water flow to the radiators in the hotter rooms.

    If you are designing the system from scratch, you should just do a room by room load calculation and install the proper size radiators in each room. That is the best way to balance the system. One size radiator for each room is not always the best design. Select the radiator to match the room's needs"

    And I agree. Put a balancing valve on each rad.

    mattmia29326yssh
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,316

    If you haven't bought the radiators yet you can size the radiators i the same room for series connection and connect them in series off the mains. You size the next radiator for the outlet temp of the previous radiator so they get larger as you get further from the supply.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,699
    edited June 23

    I would avoid this idea. Some day a new boiler will be needed and someone will decide that reversing the the direction of the water thru the system is easier that running a pipe about 3 feet longer in order to save a few dollars. At that point the oversized lower temperature radiators will become the hotter radiators and the correct size radiator when it was first on the loop, will not get warm enough to heat that room. Baseboard radiators are the only radiators I would recommend using the series loop, and as long as you don't go over 65 to 70 feet of aluminum fins in a loop, then you don't really need to oversize anything based on a lower water temperature. here is one example of wanting to reverse the flow years after system was installed

    Another reason not to series loop radiators is TRVs can be added easily.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    PC7060
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,316

    A single trv would control the whole room.

  • Kaos
    Kaos Member Posts: 669

    If you are doing a modcon or heat pump, I would vote for KISS.

    Home run all rads to a manifold with no controls on bulk of rads and TRVs only on bedrooms. You can adjust the flow at the manifold, so local valving on rads without TRVs is not really needed.

    Single deltaP circ controlled by a thermostat in the main living space.

    The idea is to oversize the rads in the the rooms with TRVs a bit so they will be satisfied before the house thermostat turns off.

    Set a decent outdoor reset curve on the modcon and you'll get nice long runs at low fire. Best of efficiency and reducing wear and tear as it minimizes cycling.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,881

    I thought of that, but it would mean running a LOT more pipe.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Kaos
    Kaos Member Posts: 669

    @Steamhead I've done both and find the home run is faster. Yes it is a lot of pipe but since you don't have to deal with fittings it is a quicker install. It also means no buried fittings, so much less chance of leaks.

    If you have a larger place or multiple stories remote manifolds will save a bit of pipe. Still the same setup though. Single delta P circ to feed all manifolds, all rads are home run to these manifolds, TRVs on rads in rooms where you want extra control.

    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes