Bad Cold Weather "Flue" Season! : (
Motel utility room environment:
2 Laars VW0325CN12CBACX "Mighty Therm" water heaters (325K BTU each unit) w/ 8" exhaust vent ports w/ atmospheric draft only.
1 18" x 18" clay lined vertical chimney (40ft) out thru roof w/ metal cap and open 360 degree bird screen.
Entry into chimney from utility room is a 16" round duct with a 16" side "T" (to connect the second unit)
From there, the pipes are reduced down to 8" flue pipe (left and right) to service the two units.
Both units have internal draft diverters …… but each unit had an external draft duct installed as well.
Hello HeatingHelp Community! : )
I was called in to investigate why the newly installed Carbon Monoxide detectors w/ digital read outs installed in the motel staff laundry area were most of the time reading zero emissions …… then at times going off scale.
The motel just recently installed the detectors because of staff complaints of sick feeling and respiratory issues.
In my troubleshooting, I noticed one of the units had High-Temp tripped out (probably been off line for months)
When the other working unit fired up, it would heat the tank storage water up just fine and then cycle off.
The problem was this unit was spilling all of its flue gasses out the external draft vents! : (
I noticed that even after a few minutes of firing, the large 16" pipe into the chimney was still cold to the touch!
Inspecting the chimney, it was clear of any obstructions.
What I found was that the large volume of very cold air within the vertical chimney effectively blocked any chance of the chimney from developing a natural draft up thru the chimney.
My thoughts to resolve this issue:
Eliminate all the 16" pipe and "T" connection including the external draft hoods, and drop down from the roof two 8" flex chimney vent pipes servicing each unit independently.
……thoughts on this?
Thanks!
Comments
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Pictures would be great. It really sounds like a lack of combustion supply air. Mechanical room too small? Laundry room? Lots of dryers pulling the area into a negative pressure? My initial thought is to bring in combustion supply air from the outside. A "fan in a can" or something similar. Is the terracotta lining of the chimney in good condition?
Eliminating the draft hoods and installing double acting barometric dampers with spill switches is not a bad idea.
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Hi!
Has two large 3ft x 3ft air supply grills thru to the very large staff work area and this room has a 4ft louvered fan always open to the outside air.
I don't think it would be an air supply issue.
Clay liner looks fine …… I'm thinking the chimney top is exposed to the prevailing winds too much. ….. maybe put on a turn over cap looking the other way??
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That wouldn't affect it. The main things that cause bad draft is lack of combustion supply air and poor venting. Plenty of terracotta chimneys out there without any caps work just fine. But if the terracotta liner is in bad shape the chimney won't work properly.
If you have the opportunity please post pictures of the boiler and the flue pipes, as well as the venting for combustion supply air. It's early and I haven't finished my coffee. I'm having a hard time picturing everything based on your description.
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……… thinking:
What if I address both fault possibilities, Install two dedicated 8" insulated vent pipes to each unit and use the remaining chimney volume for a fresh air supply (ie: coaxial venting)
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…… so, resolve:
Seal (isolate) the two utility room air intake vents from the dryers and outside wall fans in the adjoining room.
Install twin 8" insulated exhaust pipes inside existing chimney (40ft) and use the unused chimney volume for its fresh air intake for the utility room.
….. thoughts on this?
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……. down draft problem persists! : (
Today I replaced the typical 360 chimney cap with an turn over style duct cap (see pic) pointed away from the prevailing winds.
This only resulted in a small improvement to the chimney down flow.
so, …… in troubleshooting this further, I shut off all the dryers and large outside wall fan. I closed the door to this laundry room area as well.
Checking the downdraft now, it remained pouring down the chimney into the utility room! : (
The downdraft force is about twice the strength of any upflow firing draft …….. so flue spillage into the utility room is almost 100% ! : (
Observation:
When I shut off the powerful outside fan for the tests, after stopping its spin direction, it begins to spin un-powered the opposite way with in a steady counter rotation! ….. the air from the outside is pushing the fan blades in a fairly strong manner. (but, with no real wind outside to speak of). You can feel this same amount of air flow ingress as coming from the chimney draft vent. : (
I'm guessing the with the very cold weather were having, the cold air is creating an overwhelming pressure in thru the chimney and wall fan and not allowing for a normal atmospheric updraft to form.
….. thoughts on this?
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………. pondering:
The existing 18" x 18" chimney is feed high (near the ceiling) from the two boilers.
There is an "in the wall" chimney clean-out door at floor level.
I have a main trunk blower fan (from a typical warm air furnace) …… could I not just connect this to the clean-out port to emulate an induced upward draft for this over-sized chimney?
This would surely negate the downward air flow and aspirate (create a negative pressure) to the top of the two exhaust duct hoods
….. thoughts on this?
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………. where ya at ED when I need ya? : (
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Here…. Did you call?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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"air from the outside is pushing the fan blades in a fairly strong manner" means the building is depressurized. I'm guessing there is a kitchen nearby with either defective or insufficient MUA.
You need to find what is depressurizing the space and fix it. If not, isolate the heater area and install an external makeup air to this space only. If you go down this route make sure the verify the pressure in the space when done.
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"air from the outside is pushing the fan blades in a fairly strong manner" means the building is depressurized. I'm guessing there is a kitchen nearby with either defective or insufficient MUA.
I shut down all the dryers and outside wall fan and closed entry door to this area …….. same downward draft! : (
No kitchen or other fans around !
You need to find what is depressurizing the space and fix it.
I have the same issue on the other side of this building ….. strong downdraft from an abandoned chimney the same size.
You can stand 10ft away from the open chimney port (in basement) and feel this strong downward air flow! (coming from the chimney top)
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Since hot air raises, a chimney can't draft down into a heated space. The only way for cold air to come down through a chimney (assuming chimney is above roofline) is for the building space to "suck" the air in.
Sometimes if you have a place with a lot of air leaks near the peak, stack pressure will create enough airflow to pull the basement negative. Solution is still the same, stop the negative pressure source or add enough external makeup air to prevent back drafting.
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I hear ya! …….. but I have same problem from two different locations, two different chimneys, in the same building!
Cant see or find anything that could be causing this. : (
I thought it may be from the prevailing wind, ….. thats why in made the "turn down" chimney cap (pic above) and turned it the other way.
This really has me stumped! : (
I'm not an HAVC guy ……. but I never seen a chimney have such a strong persistent down draft like this!
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The other issue could be if the chimney is exposed to the outdoors. A cold chimney can backdraft. From the picture with the cap, looks like inside the building, so I don't think this is the issue.
Are there any large power vents on the roof? Air handler on the roof or inside unconditioned attic? Look for anything that can suck the building negative.
The solution is still the same, more makeup air. Once you add enough that the chimney isn't the source for makeup air, it will stop back drafting.
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….. observation:
Nowhere in the entire building do I see a door being "sucked shut" from a negative or positive pressure.
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Are there any large power vents on the roof? Air handler on the roof or inside unconditioned attic? Look for anything that can suck the building negative.
No attic, No power vents on roof, No air handlers! (all guest rooms and common areas have their own independent PTAC (AC/Heating units).
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…….. mmmmmmmm not sure if there is a common power vent for the bathrooms (usually each fan would service 4 guest rooms per fan)
Checking on this now! (this could be causing a negative pressure within the building especially if the fans are over sized)
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@RickDelta OK. This is obvious that there is a lower pressure inside the building, and/or there is a higher pressure outside the building. You can come up with some way to identify the source of the pressure difference and then mediate it. This may not be easy to do, and even if you did find it , you can't just. turn it off. Someone put it there for a reason.
I was in a similar situation in Philadelphia when a local Diner called me to solve a problem with a water heater with a standing pilot that kept blowing out. The water heater was in the same room as the heating boiler and vented into a 12x12 terracotta lined masonry chimney. There was a metal door on the boiler room which had a louver on the bottom of it. It seems strange to have a metal door (like a fire door) in a boiler room with a louver cut into it for combustion air. There was a glass block basement window in the room also. Now that I think back on this job from over 40 years ago I guess that was a fire door when the construction was inspected many years earlier and that window was blocked up to stop unwanted intruders from entering the building through the functioning basement window that most likely had combustion air louvers. But that was not my concern at the time, I just wanted to figure out why there was such a strong downdraft from the chimney. That room communicated with the rest of the building thru that louver and again thru the louver in the basement door up into the kitchen where there was a huge exhaust fan over top of the main cooking station oven/grill area.
No way I’m going to get a natural draft thru that chimney with all that exhaust power in the kitchen. You could actually feel the pressure at the front door of the restaurant when you tried to open that door to come in. The suction actually made it difficult to open the door until you got past the first 6”. Then the door opened rather easily after that.
So I went to the supply house and purchased the most powerful draft inducer they had in stock and mounted it on the common vent pipe of both exhaust connector pipes connected to that chimney. Never had a problem after that. With all the other equipment that was involved with the building, adding that fan didn't amount ot anything as far as power usage so I didn't even wire in a switching kit for the draft inducer… I just left is on 24/7/365. there was always air moving up that chimney for the water heater to vent properly. And I guess the front door was just a little harder to open after that.
Get yourself a larger draft inducer and get rid to that goofy chimney cap. That was a waste of $$$, time ,and effort.
If you do not want to operate the vent motor 24/7/360 then you need to get this
Now many will say thet this is not the best solution, that the DI-4 will place the masonry chimney into a positive pressure and that the terracotta liner is not supposed to be under positive pressure, and they are correct. the correct venting system would be a chimney topper draft inducer like this one.
But that one is much more expensive and may not be large enough for your 16" pipe and 18x18 tile liner. But you can see if either one will solve your problem.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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You called it! : )
Just got off the phone with the previous owner of this motel, There are 34 roof top bathroom ventilation fans!! …. and three common area hallway fans : (
This must be the reason for the very high negative building pressure!
…… awesome troubleshooting Kaos!
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…….. Agreed! (that's why you and KAOS get the big money!) : )
"Now is my way clear, now is the meaning plain:
Temptation shall not come in this kind again.
The last temptation is the greatest treason:
To do the right deed for the wrong reason."
- T.S. Eliot - Murder in the Cathedral
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Just got of the phone with the previous owner of this motel, There are 34
roof top
bathroom ventilation fans!! …. and three common area hallway fans : (
You did not state the location but anywhere that heat is required is going to cost the hotel a veritable fortune with this setup. Imagine all the rooms with an outside door that is perpetually open!
You could save him a ton of money…………………….
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In another motel, about 3 years ago, I removed all the bathroom vent fan and motors in each guest bathroom. (every 8 guest rooms were common vented to the roof)
Usually, the fan/motors are mounted in the ceiling, but this motel had there fan/motors mounted about a foot down on each adjoining wall!
Guests smoking a joint in one bathroom the smoke would travel into the adjoining guest bathroom! : (
After eliminating all the in room fan/motors and installing a single roof vent fan …. the problem was no more! : )
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How does the roof fan not severely compromise the energy needed to maintain temp in the winter months (not sure that the location is compromised in the winter).
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…….. low CFM fan? (ie: not an overwelming CFM)
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Sure……….better that the alternative. But, consider how much we attempt to limit infiltration losses in residential. Is such a fan a typical expense that a motel is force to pay throughout the heating season? It must be 50X what we would tolerate in residential. You would think it would scream for an HRV system.
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Back to the my original post:
The existing 18" x 18" chimney is feed high (
near the ceiling
) from the two boilers.There is an "in the wall" chimney
clean-out
door at floor level.I have a main trunk blower fan (
from a typical warm air furnace
) …… could I not just connect this to theclean-out port
to emulate an induced upward draft for this over-sized chimney?This would surely
negate
the downward air flow andaspirate
(create a negative pressure
) to the top of the two exhaust duct hoods….. thoughts on this?
Does this seem to be a valid approach to counter this downdraft problem?
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What is the diameter of the clean out port?
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…. around 16" x 16"
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Well, you can certainly get sufficient airflow though that. The trick is to get just enough to allow the HWH to properly draft. Basically attempting negate the negative pressure in the chimney. I suspect that it will take minimal assistance from the blower fan. In fact, you'll need a way to slow the blower fan (or put a smaller one in place) to avoid positive pressure in the chimney.
This is an iterative project to get just enough airflow to perfectly counter the existing downflow.
But it is far less costly than the alternative.
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You need the vent on the outside on top of the chimney as you want the flue at negative pressure. A blower at the cleanout can pressurize the flue and create more back drafting issues.
@EdTheHeaterMan solution is the proper one in this case as you won't be able to eliminate all the negative pressure sources in the building. Even if you reduce the bath fans, you still have the exhaust fan and the dryers in the laundry room.
Getting balanced ventilation or at least reducing the amount of exhaust would definitely save some real heating cost for the owner.
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@LRCCBJ
yea! ……. looks like almost $2,000.00 for a proper unit (safety controls including) : (
The blower I have is multi speed (and free!) ….. but if it could create a flue gas seepage issue ….. could be a very expensive health issue : (
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I really don't think you should implement this solution as a contractor. Quite a bit of risk on all fronts unless you get it perfect. And, there is no way to know you get it perfect under all conditions because you cannot assume a constant negative pressure in the chimney. Depends on other variables.
You don't want to own this unless you live there………….which you don't!
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I hear ya!
On the other side of this building, I just recently removed the two very old Copper Fin atmospheric boilers* with a bank of 8 tankless condensing units w/ two 120 gal storage tanks (each with separate 2" exhaust and air intakes from the roof). System worked perfectly!
I think I should probably do the same for the other atmospheric boilers in the commercial laundry room side.
I'm thinking an atmospheric boiler should never be in the same environment with any other commercial power venting equipment!! (dryers, fans, etc)
ERROR: * They had internal fan inducers.
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I'm thinking an
atmospheric
boilershould never
be in the same environment with any other commercial power venting equipment!! (dryers, fans, etc)
Not a bad approach. You can work very hard to manage such a situation without any assurance that you killed it under all conditions. Your approach is a certainty.
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Here is how the air will move with a fan placed in the clean-out opening at the floor
Red areas indicate a higher pressure zone
Blue area indicates a low pressure zone
White areas indicate places that will let the pressure can equalize; like windows, doors, chimneys and fresh air intakes.
If you look at the boiler room, the blower fan will cause the boiler room to have a lower pressure than the rest of the building. That blower will cause the outside pressure to be a greater difference making the chimney down draft even greater. The blower fan can push air up the chimney to the vent connector location, the outside air pressure can downdraft to the vent connector location and there will be no exhaust gas going up the chimney, so all the exhaust gas will accumulate in the building.
The rule is that high pressure moves to low pressure,
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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