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Navien NCB-H Combi or Lochinvar Noble Fire Tube Combi

GeneM
GeneM Member Posts: 5

I'm not a contractor but I built our house 25 years ago. My wife requested radiant heat so that's what I installed. The system was designed by a reputable local energy engineering company and they specified a HTP Voyager 90,000 BTU water heater with an internal heat exchanger for the radiant system. The DHW side only needs to supply water for 1 bathroom and the kitchen. I very quickly learned about the reliability issues with the Voyager but I have been able to keep it running for 25 years with only a complete replacement of the electronics, 1 new flame sensor and 4 or 5 igniter replacements. Now it has a failed gas valve which HTP no longer stocks and I can't find anywhere in the country. I think it's time to replace the whole mess.

I'm not going to do the replacement and I have bids from 2 very competent contractors. One is bidding a 240,000 BTU Navien NCB-240/110H combi boiler and the other is bidding a 150,000 BTU Lochinvar Nobel Firetube combi unit. One obvious difference is the Navien box is packed with hardware and the Lochinvar has much less stuff. I'm a big fan of simplicity as long as Lochinvar didn't forget to include something important. Also, is it reasonable that the combi boilers are rated for a lot more BTUs than the old Voyager hot water heater? They are both modulating boilers with lots of turn down ratio so maybe this isn't a big deal?

I'd appreciate any comments on pros and cons.

And if anyone has a spare GV1000 gas valve for a old, crotchety Voyager hot water heater, please let me know.

Thanks a lot

Comments

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    I like the Lochinvar for the reasons you mentioned. Hopefully the contractors know how to maximize all the features it has to customize it to your application.

    That Voyager was a workhorse, a nice buffered hydronic heat source. Proof that 20 plus years is possible without expensive repairs. We see 20 year old Munchkins here from time to time. I suspect many are out there still plugging away.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 2,274

    Neither contractor is very competent if those are the sizes they're giving you, but the Lochinvar Noble 110k would be an excellent choice if you really want a combi boiler. I've got about 150 in service and have had excellent luck with them.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,131

    Go with the Lochinvar, stay away from Navien.

    Verify the boiler size. I would use an indirect water heater and not a combi.

  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,405

    Your original system was a tank of hot water, so the unit could be sized more accurately for the heating system. Personally I would either go with a lower BTU boiler with a small indirect water heater, or a smaller size boiler with a regular water heater. Of the two brands listed I would prefer the lochinvar, they make heat only boilers that range down to a more appropriate size for you heating system, and they also have indirect water heaters to pair with the boiler, they also make standalone gas or electric water heaters (they are an AO smith brand) If you like the idea of the tankless combi then go for it, I wouldn't try to talk someone out of a tankless or combi they just aren't for me personally.

  • GeneM
    GeneM Member Posts: 5

    This is immensely helpful thanks very much. Lochinvar seems like the right choice. Now I'm concerned about the size. I know enough to know how to calculate the theoretical numbers but don't have the experience to know what actually works in the real world.

    @GroundUp (or anyone else) Would you be willing to suggest what you think the right size for a combi-boiler would be? It's a 3000 square foot house in northern california where the temperature rarely drops below 30 deg F more than a few days a year. The energy calcs that were done by the firm that sized the original system say the Min. heat load is 53K BTU/hr and ask for a water temp of 94-100 deg for the 3 zones. I couldn't find anything about what the max heat load might be. And they specified the 90K BTU voyager. I attached their spread sheet if you're interested. The 94-100 deg temp left the house fairly cold so I bumped up the input temp to the recirculating pumps to 110 deg and that's been working OK for the last 20 years. The DHW side of the system only supplies one bathroom and the kitchen. A ballpark estimate for heating might be something like 25-50 BTU/hour per square foot, that would be 75K-150K BTU. But that's just a very ball bark range.

    Thanks again for all the help

  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,405

    This min heat load on there is your total heat loss at the given design day temp, any combi will be much larger than that and you will need to size to the domestic load. To size the domestic load you will need to know your required flowrates first. So figure as many fixtures that have hot water as you might reasonably have on at the same time and add together their flowrates for your required flowrate. From there you need a reasonably close number for your cold water temperature, what temp is the water coming from your well or city water supply, and what temp water do you need produced at the fixture, that will give you your required temp rise. Most tankless and combi manufacturers will list data to show the temperature rise at a given flowrate, match up your requirements with the closest model for best results, or jump up to the next size for more headroom on flowrates.

    I'm not sure what your designer used for design day (your location I think should be 35f), but the load on the report comes out to about 21 btu/sqft which is about what it takes to heat a new house in MI at -10f so I imagine there was already some fudge factor added into your heating load

  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,836

    I am a fan of boiler & indirect hot water tank. Lochinvar is my preferance. Looks like based on your loads that a whb or khb 085 boiler would do the trick. I like these models better than the Noble model. Although you will spend more money on the boiler & indirect.

  • GeneM
    GeneM Member Posts: 5
    edited January 31

    Wow, great information and immediate response. Do you guys work in Santa Cruz, CA?

    If I stick with a combi, it looks like it's between the smallest Lochinvar unit, the NKC110 and the next size up which is the NKC150. Based on your comments and my back of the envelope calculation, either one should handle the heating load. In CA, shower heads and kitchen sink faucets both have to be less than 1.8 GPM with a temporary increase on the kitchen sink up to 2.2 gpm. So the demand is probably 1.8 GPM 95% of the time, 3.6 gpm 99.9% of the time and a slim possibility of 4 gpm.

    The NKC110 has a 2.6 gpm at 77 degF temp rise rating which might work on our coldest days as long as no one is showering and doing dishes at the same time. The NKC150 has 3.6 gpm rating which is barely adequate but it is oversized on the heating side. So, your suggestions for the external storage tank make sense if I want to keep everyone happy all the time. Or I can go with the NKC110 and add a storage tank later if we need one. Especially if I ask the contractor to put tees and valves in the plumbing to make it easy to add a storage tank in the future. Or am I just being cheap and/or dumb here?

  • GeneM
    GeneM Member Posts: 5
    edited January 31

    And one more question. Doesn't the modulating function of these combi-boilers make having an oversize unit a little less inefficient given they can turn down their BTU needs over a range of 10:1 or so?

  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 2,274

    A 77* rise is highly unlikely in CA unless you like your showers scalding. Average cold water temp is 55-65* so with a 110* shower coming up from 55*, your actual rise is only 55* which puts the 110k at ~3.7 GPM output. I really don't care for a combi in general but as long as you're mindful of the limitations and don't run two showers plus laundry or dishwasher or whatever all at the same time, the 110k should be well suited to the demand.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,332

    your incoming water temperature is the key to dhw performance as @GroundUp mentioned. The water provider may have that exact number

    I had 110 Nobel with 52 degree well water and it worked great for two of us

    With 10-1 turndown , it will be fine for the heating load

    The Knight has some additional features and I like the heat exchanger better

    Perhaps a heat pump water heater could be a good option for dhw?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    GGross
  • GeneM
    GeneM Member Posts: 5

    Thanks a ton for all the help, I really appreciate it. I'm pursuing the Lochinvar NKC110 with tees and valves to make it easy to add an indirect storage tank if ever needed. I'll update this post if I gather any useful information after installation and some time using it.

    Thanks again - Gene

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,699

    Hi @GeneM , I'm just a domestic hot water guy, but am in Monterey, so know the area. I'm wondering if @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes would have time to help out? … Do you have any independent appliance parts distributors around? Someone like that would know what gas valve could be used if you wanted to go that route. We used to have Mack Stove here, but they recently closed. 😐️

    Yours, Larry