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Short cycling boiler. I'm stumped.

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Comments

  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 81
    edited December 26

    Ok. ::update::

    I opened all the ball valves and started her up. I began to count to 5 as the burner came on.

    No short cycle.

    I went up stairs and set the 2nd floor thermostat to call for heat. Turned my first floor down so it wouldn't.

    I noticed the pressure rising pretty close to 30 PSI so I threw my short hose on one of the zones and cracked the globe valve just a little to bring the PSI down to 25.

    I noticed the heat suddenly pull back some. I'm not sure if it was due to the 2nd floor call for heat. The zones were both cold to the touch for a while as the temp went to 170 + but i started to hear one zone making some noise in the pipe. I felt it and it's now nice and hot. I went back up stairs to first floor and set it to call for heat. Now both zones are screaming hot. Burner still running. Gage looks like this ...

    I keep cracking open the 6 ft hose into the bucket, though, to keep the PSI away from 30 so my safety relief doesn't pop.

    Question..

    Where should my PSI sit @ when this temp hits 190? I've got it to sit at 25 PSI. Is that ok?

    Also, another update.

    It hit 190, burner shut off. I went upstairs. Heat hot water, yay! But I wwent back down to it short cycling at 170 degrees again. Seems like it stopped short cycling quicker than the usual and we're sitting at 175ish

    Not sure what to think but I'm so greatful we're back online over here.

    Thanks everyone

    I'll look into what ED said.

  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,481
    edited December 25

    Not that high; maybe 18PSI. Did you check the expansion tank before you refilled system?


    Make sure you don’t have a valve closed on line to expansion tank. Do you have pictures of that section of the piping?

    ColdMainer
  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 543
    edited December 25

    Do you see that gray tank up by the ceiling"

    Tap on the side of the tank near the bottom with a hard mallet or a soft hammer. You are listening for whether the tank is full of water. If it is full of water, you will get a very dull thud. If it is not full of water you'll get a very soft tapping sound. It is a bit difficult unless you are skilled.

    The problem is most likely the tank has filled with water and provides no "cushion" for expansion.

    When you start at 15 psi, it should NOT rise more than 20 psi if the tank is working properly.

    I am making the assumption that you purged all zones properly and there is no residual air.

    Lower the pressure to 20 psi when the boiler is fully hot (190°). Then when there is no demand for heat and it cools all the way back to room temperature, read the pressure and advise.

    ColdMainer
  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 543

    Ed will help you with the short cycling. He's familiar with that fan unit.

    ColdMainer
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,552
    edited December 26

    @LRCCBJ Has done a great job getting you this far. I noticed that you have a Extrol expansion tank. This tank is supposed to keep the water pressure in your boiler form going too high when the water heats up. I see that you got close to 30 PSI when the water got above 180°. That could be a problem with the expansion tank. You are going to learn about expansion tanks today.

    So to be clear with your system, when you fill the boiler to 15 PSI, the expansion tank should also have 15 PSI air pressure in it.  That means that there is no water in the tank and both sides of the membrane that separate the air from the water are at 15 PSI.  Your boiler may have about 20 gallons of water and the radiators and pipes may have another 10 to 20 gallons of water in there. So let's just call it 40 gallons in the system at 60° cold fill pressure.  When you get the water to 190° and you add almost 4% more water by volume because the water expanded there is now 41.6 gallons of water in the closed system.  

    The only place that water can go is in the expansion tank since the system is closed and the backflow preventer (Watts 9D) won’t let any water out.  So when the 1.6 gallons goes into the tank that is full of air pressure, that water will compress that air as it moves the air out of the way to make room for the water.  The pressure will go up about 2 to 4 PSI. That is normal.   When the water cools down after the heating cycle is over, then that pressure will drop down to 16 PSI or 15 PSI as the air pressure in the tank pushes the shrinking volume of water back into the system.   

    I hope you have followed me up to this point.

    Now what if the tank only had 6 PSI of air pressure in it?  Whe you put 15 PSI water pressure in the system, the water pressure was higher than 6 PSI and started to compress the air as more and more cold water enters the tank.  You may have added 2 to 3 gallons of cold water to the system that ended up in that tank in order to compress that air pressure in the tank from 6 PSI to 15 PSI.  That tank is only about 4.5 gallons total.  

    With the tank more than half full of water when the boiler water is cold, there may only be about 1.5 gallons of air space left in that tank. So as the water expands to 1.6 more gallons of water, there is less room for the water to expand and that air cousin will increase in pressure until the relief valve pop off pressure is reached and you end up with a puddle of water on the floor.  


    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    PC7060
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,552
    edited December 26

    Now to get the expansion tank correct, you need a tire gauge that will measure as low as 15 PSI. Then you will drain the boiler (like you are purging one of the loops) with the manual fill valve closed.  Watch the gauge drop below 8 PSI and test the air pressure in the expansion tank. You don't need to go any lower than 8 PSI on the boiler gauge because you don't want to let any air back in the boiler since @LRCCBJ just finished telling you how to get all the air out. 

    If The air pressure in the tank is below 15 PSI then you need to add more air. A bicycle pump is the best way to do this but it may take about 30 to 40 pumps to get to 15 PSI in the tank.  If you go over 15 PSI, then just let some air out until you get the tank at 15 PSI.  (EDIT) This is not rocket surgery… 14.5 PSI or 15.2 PSI is close enough.

    CAUTION If you use an air compressor and it is set for 50 or more PSI, then you want to add short bursts of air and measure the pressure after each short burst.  You do not want to get 60 PSI in that tank and over stress the membrane in the tank.  

    Once you get the tank at 15 PSI then you can turn the manual fill valve back on and let the Watts 1156 PRV put the boiler pressure back to 15 PSI. 

    I hope this helps


    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 543

    One point:

    Before you go through the effort to refill the tank with air as Ed mentioned above, take the plastic cap off the Schrader valve (on the very bottom of the tank) and push in the pin slightly. Either you will get air or you will get water.

    If you get air, follow the procedure as Ed mentioned above.

    If you get water, the game is over and you must replace the tank. No need to attempt to add air……….will not work.

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,481
    edited December 26

    Nice instructions @EdTheHeaterMan.

    @ColdMainer - Are all the valves open allowing access to the compression tank?

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 81

    It's weird because I have a pressure gagei tried on it last night and It seemed like the gage didn't wanna work at all on it. I have a compressor sitting down there so I tried it on the gage and the gage responded just fine.

    When I test the valve on the expansion tank, air and water come out of it.

  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 81

    Yes sir.

  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,481
    edited December 26

    As @LRCCBJ said, water coming out of valve is solid indicator of failed tank. You should be able to pick up a new one at local big box.
    https://www.homedepot.com/pep/Amtrol-No-30-Expansion-Tank-for-Hydronic-Boiler-EX-30/202268962

    ColdMainer
  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 543
    edited December 26

    Yes, sadly, you'll need to replace the tank. The problem with this is that you'll have to go through the entire draining, refilling, and purging procedure all over again. Sorry………….the pitfalls when the original installer did not include the necessary valves to isolate various components in the system.

    The tank is precharged to 12 psi. Raise it to 15 psi before you install it.

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Amtrol-No-30-Expansion-Tank-for-Hydronic-Boiler-EX-30/202268962

    ColdMainer
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,552
    edited December 26

    @PC7060 said water coming out of valve is solid indicator of failed tank. You should be able to pick up a new one at local big box.

    Ouch. Water from the air side of the tank is a definite sign that the tank must be replaced.

    There are two types of expansion tanks You want the one for a closed system that comes pre charged to 12 PSI. They are usually Gray or Green. The other type is for an open system like your hot water heater and comes pre charged with over 45 PSI Pressure. They are often White

    When you get your replacement tank, you want to fill the air side of the tank with 15 PSI because the Watts 1156 will make the water side 15 PSI. Check that air pressure before you install the replacement tank. That way you will be sure that you have it set correctly.

    For now you can still operate the boiler but it will discharge water thru the relief valve if the pressure gets above 30 PSI. Don't worry, it is only water. You can close off the manual feed valve for tonight so you don't keep adding water after every overpressure event. The operating LWCO will protect the boiler in the event your water level gets too low.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainer
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,481
    edited December 26

    Ed, do you recommend checking the charge on the tank periodically (provided it can be be isolated from the system)?

    I just isolated and drained off my two tanks and found the pressure below 10psi on both tanks. Having said that I don’t recall setting the pressure on tanks when I installed the system 4 years ago 🙈

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,612

    I would have used a brass nipple between the PRV and the tee but you already have it on so no big deal.

    ColdMainer
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 81

    You Know , now that you mention it, I might just throw a ball valve in just b4 the expansion tank when I drain it again.

    PC7060LRCCBJ
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,471

    It's recommended by the boiler and expansion tank manufacturers to check the expansion tank air pressure annually. I do this on all of my boiler maintenance jobs and I have found that the tanks normally lose a few PSI every year. I'm surprised if I find one that still has the same pressure in it as it did the year before.

    PC7060ColdMainer
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,552

    The air in the tank will migrate thru the membrane of the tank causing a drop in pressure by about 1 PSI per year.   The way it was explained to me is this:   

    Think of oxygen in the air (it makes up about 21% of the atmosphere) as having its own pressure that wants to be balanced.   So when you pump air into the tank, that tank is about 21% oxygen and 78 % Nitrogen with trace amounts of all the other gasses to fill in that other percentage.   Now the Air that is dissolved in the water in the boiler also has oxygen in it.  But that oxygen gets depleted as it works on rusting all the ferrous metals in the boiler system. Not a lot of rust happens because the oxygen gets used up pretty quickly.

    Over a short time all the oxygen that is dissolved in the water will become a part of the iron oxides that make up the small amount of rust that forms.  (This is the reason you want oxygen barrier PEX tubing in the system so more oxygen does not migrate back into the system).   That is also the reason you do not want to keep adding fresh water with a fresh supply of dissolved oxygen to a closed system regularly. You want to keep that new oxygen to a minimum. 

    As a result of the oxygen becoming chemically altered into other materials, the percentage of oxygen in the water becomes a lot less that 21% of the content of the air that is dissolved in the water  The air in the atmosphere is at 21% and the air that is in the water is at something lower than 21% so there is that unbalance that strives to be balanced.  If you have a barrier that allows the oxygen to migrate thru the membrane (like PEX tubing without the oxygen barrier) then that higher percentage oxygen on the outside will get into the water on the inside of the system.   That is what is happening with the membrane of the expansion tank.  Oxygen is migrating through the membrane.  After a year that oxygen migration will account for about 1 PSI pressure drop.

    So you need to add air pressure every season in order to keep the tank at the proper pressure.    

    This may not be the most scientific explanation but it gets the point across to us non-engineer, non-physicist, regular folk.  


    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainerPC7060
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 81
    edited December 26

    Noticed my fan making more noise than usual. I noticed a lot of lights on the board. And one that blinks 4 times.

    Took the fan out. Tightened everything up on it incase it was vibrating too much. Cleaned proving tube w pipe cleaner. Isn't blinking anymore. Fan sounds good. But that darn short cycling comes after it goes to 190. I noticed that LED4 on the Sideshot board is blinking 3 times now. Burner off.

    Gonna try jumping O and Y

    EDIT :

    Tried finding the O terminal and Y terminal but it seems to be a different circuit board. I see in the records that they replaced the power vent circuit board back in 2007.

    This is what I'm working with down below. I see a 9 switch activates prover switch. Just to see what happens I turned it off. Started burner, gonna see what happenes.

    Update ::

    That 9 switch did nothing different. Lol. Switched it back on and shut boiler off.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,552

    The red jumper on the upper right of this diagram is the prover switch.

    You can use the yellow wire that is connected to the prover pressure switch on the left of the photograph. leave it connected to P2 on the PCB and remove the black wire from the P1 on the PCB. after the fan starts connect the yellow wire to P1 and that will simulate the prover switch has closed contacts and the short cycling will stop.

    After the burner cycle is completed, you must remove the wire from P1 or the burner will not restart on the next cycle. Then when the next cycle starts the Side Shot again, you can jump P1 to P2 again and that will allow the burner to operate.

    So P1 and P2 must NOT be connected for the Side Shot to start. P1 and P2 must be connected for the burner to start.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainer
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 81
    edited December 27

    Thanks Ed. So while this burner is short cycling at the moment, I wait for the burner to cut out, I then pull the black wire from P1 and while the fans running, I throw the yellow from P2 onto P1 before the burner comes on.

    The oil pump then comes on shortly after, but then, instead, it clicks and the burner doesn't come on. I've tried it about 4 or 5 times.

    I'm swapping these ones.. yellow P2 to P1

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,552
    edited December 27

    You need to have the black wire already disconnected. this way the burner will not run at all.

    As soon as you get the SideShot to operate then connect the yellow so P1 and P2 are connected

    Then the burner will run

    You only have 5 seconds from the start of the SideShot until the P1 and P2 are jumped for this test to work.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainer
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,552
    edited December 27

    Does the pressure switch have an adjustment on the side of it? That may need to be changed to get this to operate properly.

    Looking at the instructions, that pressure switch is not adjustable

      ALSO. Jumping P1 and P2 is only a temporary test. it is not a fix.   This test will prove the pressure switch is the cause of the short cycling or it will eliminate the pressure switch as the source of the short cycling.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainer
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 81

    Yes sir. Cold this morning! I woke up and came down to the boiler at 0. Restarted the on off burner switch.

    She took right off. Roaring. At about 170 / 180 I had my daughter turn the thermostat on. I kept my hand on the zone the entire time. Burner kept running. Temp dipped some on the gage but she kept rolling. That zone got really cold and then nice and hot. Screaming hot. Burner stopped right where the aquastat was set. 190. Upstairs had heat. Pic of gage after burner shut off (below)

    Then I sat here and babysat. Watching the gage very slowly come down. At one point the power vent came on and then shut off. Burner never came on. Don't know what that was all about. At that point we were around 155 degrees on the gage. I climbed up and pulled the black wire from P1, restarted the burner off / on switch to get the vent to come on. As soon as it came on I swapped the yellow P2 over onto the P1 terminal. After a few seconds I just hear a click and the burner doesn't come on.

    I'm prob screwing up somewhere. I agree I believe it's the proving switch malfunctioning. Or maybe it's the circuit board.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,552

    OK Lets try this.

    Put the pressure switch back as it was originally. Black wire on P2 Yellow wire on P1 and connect the yellow wire to the pressure switch. this should make the burner short cycle as before.

    Confirm this for me.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 81
    edited December 27

    Hey I just showed my wife this guy named EdTheHeaterMan is still with me trying to help me out. Much appreciated!

    Okay so essentially swapping them, black wire now going onto P2, yellow wire onto P1 and restarting the burner off/on switch?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,552

    put it back the way you found it. Put it back as if you did not ever test it. Put it the way it worked when it was short cycling. Once you get the system to short cycle the way it did last week then we will go to the next step

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainer
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 81

    Okay. I set the thermostat to call for heat. Temp on gage was around 155.

    Pulled back to 125 degrees, and is now short cycling.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,552
    edited December 27

    With all the wired connected as they are now. Turn off the power supply to the SideShot and the Oil Burner. Hopefully that is the same switch that turns off both systems

    Place a Temporary Jumper wire between terminal #1 and terminal # 4 on the SideShot. This should stop the short cycling (Look at the red wire at the bottom of the photo)

    Let ma know if there is any change in the short cycling, or if the burner ever operates.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainer
  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 543

    That is exactly what I was thinking Ed…………….😊

    ColdMainer
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 81
    edited 12:31AM

    Okay, so I made up a jumper wire. Put it on 1 and 4. Set my first floor thermostat to call for heat and then started the boiler up. She ran great. Got to 190 and shut off.

    This time around, when the vent comes on and then the burner comes on after shutting off at 190, the burner short cycles. But instead, the vent came on and the burner came on, and STAYED on. But what happened was the vent ended up shutting off while the burner stayed running. I turned it all off with the burner on off switch.

  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,481

    did you replace the expansion tank?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,552

    this is proof that the vent prover switch is the cause of the short cycling.
    Now you need to find a way to get it fixed. Either the pressure switch needs to be replaced or an adjustment on the side shot needs to be made so that when the burner comes on the rapid expansion of the flue gas, that is caused by combustion, does not cause the pressure switch to shut the burner off.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 81

    hey man, no i havent yet. I'll do it soon enough and probably put a ball valve in front of it when I do.

  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,471
    edited 4:58AM

    Put a ball valve with a tee that has a boiler drain on it between the valve and the tank. If the tank has pressure in it and you shut the valve off and unscrew the tank, that water under pressure will be spraying out everywhere. The boiler drain will allow you to drain the pressure from the tank while keeping the rest of the boiler under pressure.

    Webstone makes fittings designed for this application. They are designed for expansion tanks and have the ball valve and drain together on one fitting.

    Definitely something to consider once you get this other problem with the power venter taken care of.

    Good job @EdTheHeaterMan for all the help he's provided.

    ColdMainer
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 81

    I found one of these bad boys on ebay..

    Thanks @EdTheHeaterMan

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,391
    edited 11:20AM

    As long as it's the same ratings as the existing, it's fine.

    Are you sure the pressure switch isn't just doing what a pressure switch does? The boiler passages are clear? Flue pipe joints are tight? Motor RPM correct (amps)? Fan is clean? No obstruction anywhere? You guys must be cold.

    ColdMainer
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 81

    Yeah it's getting to that point! I'll keep that in mind. Everything seems good. The flu pipe seems solid. The fans been brushed down and cleaned.

    I'll check the amps on the motor.