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2nd zone thermostat/pump wired incorrectly. Is this setup properly to prevent boiler condensation?

Our ~20 year old oil fired Vaillant boiler is setup for two zones. Heat only. No domestic hot water.

The second zone is on an addition which has struggled to maintain temperature. I believe the reason for this is because the thermostat is wired incorrectly; the second zone tstat is wired directly to the 2nd zone circulator pump (left circulator in the first photo). It appears the thermostat only run the circulator, regardless of the temperature of the boiler water.

Because our boiler operates as a cold start, my concern is if this will result in condensation or other problems. For example, if the boiler shuts off because the main zone is satisfied and the second zone continue to run indefinitely until the next heat cycle, it will be circulating sub 120 degree water throughout the boiler. At the time of this post, the boiler was at 94 degrees and the second thermostat was calling for heat, although I couldn't tell if the circulator was running.

Aquastat is a Hydrostat 3250 Plus.

Am I overthinking this, or is the current installation adequate? If not, are there any simple tweaks I could make without having to re-do everything from scratch?

Comments

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,454

    You can see ZR,ZC aren't being used in the Hydrostat, so the boiler has no way of knowing the second zone wants heat. Running cold water through the boiler isn't going to help anything, that's for sure. I would install a 2 zone control panel and use the isolated end switch to TT on the Hydrostat. It can be done using the 845A, but it's almost harder.

    That's a good boiler when it runs clean. When its dirty, it's a PITA to clean, with those tension plates on top.

    jgvasa
  • jgvasa
    jgvasa Member Posts: 26
    edited December 2024

    Thank you for the insight. Quite frustrating that three separate oil service contractors (and 1 plumber) have looked at this boiler, and no one made any mention of this solution.

    This setup has been in place for approximately 20 years. Is there any way to identify to what extent running cold water through this boiler has done? I would expect it to be nearly constant during the shoulders seasons. Boiler doesn't get higher than ~130 - 150 degrees to satisfy the main thermostat during cold mornings, and quickly shuts off whereas zone 2 will stay chilly and thus continue to circulate the cold water once the boiler has cooled down. Winters are worse - zone 2 thermostat is always calling for heat because it's not being satisfied, but at least the water is still somewhat hot in between firing.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,717

    You need to add 2 wires from the R845A to the Hydrostat control and your problem will be resolved.

    Connect 5 and 6 from the R845A to ZC and ZR on the Hydrostat. They are under the removable sticker.

    No additional controls needed. Just a piece of wire with 2 conductors from the R845A to the HydroStat control. EASY PEZY!

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,454

    You could also set the low to 140°.

    Its line voltage, so the 2 wire needs to be 14 awg. I wonder why they show 2 diagrams.

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,717
    edited December 2024

    Why would you want to set the Low limit to maintain any temperature? There is no tankless coil, so no need for a minimum temperature. Just leave it a cold start boiler with Lo Limit set to OFF.

    When you connect ZC to ZR on the Hydrostat (or any control that has the ZC ZR terminals), you are taking power from the L1 terminal on the Aquastat Relay and connecting it to the B side of the High Limit on the control. From the B on the High Limit the power then goes thru the limit contacts to the R on the limit and then to the B1 on the Aquastat relay. This way an end switch (like the 5 and 6 on the R845A) can make the burner operate thru the High Limit without making the circulator that is connected to the Aquastat relay operate. The Zone 2 circulator will operate and the burner will operate independent of the Zone 1 Circulator with just one wire that has 2 conductors.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,454

    I know, Ed. It's an option, and the least invasive for the OP. Maybe the OP isn't comfortable wiring a 120 volt circuit. And electricians cost money. Turn a dial, and the 2nd zone gets instant on demand heat. Easy peazy.

    jgvasa
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,717

    I understand what you are saying now…. @HVACNUT. That would make sense on the comfort side of things. Wasteful on the operation side, but on the comfort side I guess I might say that's OK. Not liking 120 VAC wiring…. I have known Plumbers that did not want to touch wires and I have known electricians that did not want to touch water pipes. Understanding and respecting both, I sometimes think that is kind of crazy. But you do have a point.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • jgvasa
    jgvasa Member Posts: 26

    Thank you for the insight. For my own knowledge, I've read that water temperatures less than 120 degrees can cause condensation, yet the Hydrostat does specify to keep Low Limit set to OFF with no tankless coil. How does the low limit being off mitigate condensation issues? Especially on warmer days, it's not uncommon for water in our boiler to be sitting at 90-110 degrees. I have no idea if the circulator settings are correct in terms of when the water would begin to circulate, but wouldn't that also cause low flue temperatures in the chimney?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,717
    edited December 2024

    A cold start boiler will experience some condensation of flue gasses on start up every time. "Eventually" the exhaust temperature and the boiler water temperature rises enough that the condensation evaporates away back into the flue gas and is eliminate thru the chimney. The longer that "Eventually" is the more damage is done to the boiler. in most cases that time is less than 2 minutes and no real damage is done. If however you allow the boiler to operate with the return water below 130° for an extended period of time, the condensation never goes away, and acids form in that water. Those acids eat away at the cast iron and cause premature boiler failure.

    By establishing and maintaining 130° return water quickly you will allow your boiler to last much longer. As far as the boiler returning to the cold start temperature after the call for heat is completed, that will not be a problem. You see, as the call for heat is over, there will be no flame and therefore no flue gasses to condense. So letting the boiler temperature to drop below 130° over the time between heating cycles will not have flue gas condensation issues.

    I hope this helps in understanding the flue gas condensation issue.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • jgvasa
    jgvasa Member Posts: 26

    Thank you for the explanation. One final question if you don't mind: What can be done to ensure the return water remains at or above 130 degrees? Particularly in the "shoulder seasons", our boiler will run for very short periods. It's not uncommon for the water temperature to only reach 120-130 degrees on the Hydrostat before the thermostat is satisfied, so the return water must be below 130 in those instances, which lasts for about 5-8 weeks each season.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,717
    edited December 2024

    That should have been addressed by the near boiler piping when it was installed. If your boiler is connected to a system that has a large water volume then there were instructions for piping a bypass from the supply to the return in order to have the boiler heat up to 140° in pretty short order. The bypass would mix hot supply water with the cold return water in order to make the return temperature get above 130° within a few minutes. The rest of the system would take heat from the supply slowly by gravity, as it was originally designed. There are even mixing valves that are designed to protect the boiler if your system has a cold return problem. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-280175A-1-1-4-Female-NPT-ThermoProtec-Thermostatic-Mixing-Valve-130-Degrees-F-Tset Since you boiler was installed 20 years ago, I think it is a little late to worry about this problem for this boiler. This would be something to think about for you next boiler.

    The main reason you have the cold zone is because the R845A only operates the circulator pump and will not operate the burner. Since your system operates at such a low temperature for Zone 1, your are never going to get heat in zone 2. that is because zone 2 requires a higher operating temperature. By adding the wire from 5 and 6 on the R845A and connecting it to the ZC and ZR on the HydroStat, you will actually raise the boiler temperature whenever zone 2 calls for heat. This may actually make your existing flue gas condensation problem happen less.

    Have you been able to add that wire yet?

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • jgvasa
    jgvasa Member Posts: 26