Calling heat on 1 zone also heats other zones
I recently moved into a home. It has 6-zone heating and 2-zone A/C. All works well, except when I call for heat on zone 3, in which case, zones 4 & 5 are also getting hot water in the pipes (this is the problem I am trying to solve). This defeats the purpose of having zones.
Some info:
- Heating is done via hydronic baseboard gas-heated;
- System is powered via a Taco board. Taco board confirms only zone 3 is active via LED;
- I confirmed pumps 4 & 5 are not running using the screwdriver test;
- Taco Pumps are 007-F5;
- Pumps are plugged at the supply (exit) side of the furnace. In a single location.
Why is hot water going through zones 4 & 5 pumps while they are not running?
Here are some pictures of the installation.
Taco Board:
Pumps Install:
Pumps Heat:
Comments
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Some kind of parasitic flow. Are there flow control/check valves on these?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
What might be happening is explained on page 11 top right column, and continues on page 12 left column of this book.
Can you take a thermal shot of the other ends of the pipe manifold to see if the hot water is also flowing in that return manifold? Screen shot of Page 12 of the book
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Do you get ghost flow in zones 4 and 5 if zone one or 2 are calling?
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Parasitic flow? is that where hot water just starts eating cold water wherever it can find some? 🤣🤔🧐 @delcrossv PhD, MS, BS, ASAP and RSVP …Dr of infectious water diseases.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I do not see anything that resembles a control/check valves installed. And I don't think the 007-F5 have an Internal Flow Check. The 007-F5-7IFC do, but not mine, it looks like.
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I will read that document, thank you for sharing!
"thermal shot of the other ends of the pipe manifold" - I am not sure what you are referring by this. Can you clarify? Will try to provide a thermal picture.
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I haven't tried that configuration, but I will try and post the result once I've done it.
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The only way to know if the IFC has been installed in the outlet of the circulator it to open up the connection and look. There is a sticker that should be added when it is installed but the sticker may not have been added or may have come off.
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The ghost flow is gravity heat rising up slowly. A circulator will move hot water quickly and fill all the radiators with heat all the way around the entire loop from the supply to the return resulting in hot radiators in the entire Zone (loop), not just the first 10 feet or so.
Flow Control valves are needed to prevent this. That explanation starts on Page 9, top of right column.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Before spending too much effort fixing this, do you have an overheat issue in those ghost zones. I have set up small zones before where a small amount of bleed was allowed into the rest of the zones. The extra bit of flow prevents short cycling with low load zones while still allowing control of overall heat distribution.
A bit of heat going to zones not calling for heat is generally not an issue as long as those zones are inside the house. That heat is heating your house after all so it is not lost.0 -
I just read the PDF, thanks for sharing it. It was really informative. I will perform the test you mentioned just here to confirm the issue I have.
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Yep, I do have an overheating issue. Because the bedroom we are trying to heat is naturally colder than other bedrooms (on a different zone). Because it take a while to warm it up, it overheats those bedrooms while the first one is warming up.
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I've turned on heat on zone 3 only, and here is my findings:
- Zone 3 pump got hot faster than any other pumps, confirming only this one is actually actively pumping water. Or other pumps in between pump 3 and furnace would have been heating at same pace;
- Below are temp recorded on pumps:
- Zone 1 pump was at 94C ← Farthest from furnace
- Zone 2 pump was at 91C
- Zone 3 pump was at 104C
- Zone 4 pump was at 104C
- Zone 5 pump was at 104C
- Zone 6 pump was at 75C ← Closest to furnace
- Below are temp recorded on return pipes (unlabelled, so I don't know which is which)
- Measures #1 (10 min): 36, 27, 37, 41, 41, 30
- Measures #2 (60 min): 37, 26, 38, 42, 40, 32
- Measures #3 (120min): 42, 30, 40, 43, 38, 34
I can confirm only zone 3 called for heating, all other thermostats are OFF.
I can also confirm that I did not see anything that looks like a "Flo-Control" valve or "Thermoflo Balancers" anywhere.
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what is the temp a foot or 2 above the circulators?
what is the boiler's aquastat set to? the supply water should be below boiling, more like 150f-180f. it won't boil at just over 212f because of the system pressure but it shouldn't be that hot for many reasons.
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Pipe 2 feet above circulator is 82C.
Not sure what an aquastat is, so can’t answer that.
Furnace gauges indicate temp is 190F, pressure is 4psi. Pressure seems low for a 3-story home.
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Just did the test and yep, I still get hot water flowing through 4 & 5 when only zone 2 is calling for heat:
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Looks like there are flo- control valves in your future.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Aquastat = thermostat that measures water temperature. They are usually connected to a well adaptor. A well adaptor is a fitting that has a screw thread that fits into a boiler or other pipe fitting what has a dry well inserted into the water to place the temperature probe.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Got it. I found this small dented wheel inside the unit. Arrow seems to point a bit before 180. Not sure if that’s what it is but I don’t have anything that looks like what a google img search returns
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Is that the solution to my problem Flo-control devices, then?
I’m surprised the issue is to the extend that it does warm up the zones as if their thermostats was ON. And surprised it wasn’t properly installed given the install only date from 2008 - not so old.0 -
That is the Aquastat. Also known at the High Limit. An aquastat can be a low limit, a high limit an operating control, a reverse acting control to operate the circulator all those controls that measure water temperatures that do different jobs on different heaters are all called Aquastats.
Your particular Boiler has only one aquastat. That one is the High Limit.
As far as the Flow Control, there are several different types of "Flow Valves". (to be clear a Flo Valve has nothing to do with a "Flow Balancer". A flow control just stops overheating. ). Here are some different Flo-Check or Flow Control valve.
The first 4 are separate from the circulator pump and will be easy to spot on a pipe somewhere. the one on the right is a check valve that is inserted inside the circulator pump and you can't see it unless you take the pump off the pipe flanges as @mattmia2 stated above.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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They should have been installed from the get go.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
Thank you very much to all of your answers! I have learned more here than I was able to on my own. And sometimes even though you find the information, there are no guarantees on my understanding or the accuracy, so your input helped a lot!
I will be ordering 6 of the Taco 220-6 Flow Control valves and install those on my system. Looks like a good option as the little knob allows you to bypass the flow control and still use gravity in case pump get out of service.
My service valves are too close to the pumps (only separated by a 3/4" X 4" Nipple, so there is not much space to install a FC valve in between. I might need to reposition the service valves as I do that.
Hopefully this is something I can install myself with some learnings and the right tools. Feel free to share further advice on the install if you have.
Thank you again all, I really appreciate your answers! 🙂
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Taco 220-6 may not be the best choice for you. that is a 1" cast iron Flow Control. It appears that you have 3/4" copper. A cast iron part requires copper to male adaptors to connect them to your system.
Taco makes a SweatCheck that is made to be soldered to copper pipe…
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-219-4-3-4-CxC-Horizontal-Bronze-Taco-Flo-Chek
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Hi Ed - The pipes I have coming out of the pumps are actually plastic orange pipe. Sort of a semi-flexibly pipe that looks like this:
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After a closer look, you have a brown colored PEX tubing connected to those pumps. I don't believe that either the Taco 220 or the 219 will work for you. unless you have the proper PEX tool and fittings. Those valves MUST be installed on a horizontal pipe. You can not use them on a vertical pipe configuration. That is because the valve closes by gravity. a weighted valve actuator sits over the opening and is pushed out of the way by the water flow
If you install them on the vertical, the valve actuator will not close on its own. there is no spring to close them
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Indeed, I had come across that after my comment this morning. I guess I would need spring-assisted valves, then? If that exists.
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HAH ! looks like we were typing at the same time. you mentioned that you have PEX while I was taking a closer look at your pipes and saw that you had PEX
You might be better off with this kit.
Call taco Tech Support and see if the kit will ft your existing pumps. OR Take a Photo of the model number on the pump and post it here. @SteveSan works there and he can tell you which kit to order.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Pump model is exactly 007-F5:
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Check the part number of your circulator. Most recent TACO ones will take an IFC. Unbolt the outlet flange and insert the IFC, no pipe plumbing needed.
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The -5 is important. I don't know if that has the correct pump body for the IFC kit. But @SteveSan will know.
If it fits, then that is your best choice. There will be no repiping needed. Just valve off the pumps, remove the top flange, insert the IFC, and put the flange back on. EASY PEZY. He will get a notice that I tagged him here and will look in very soon
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Looking at the FAQ tab of this page, you cannot fit an IFC into a initially non-IFC pump:
https://www.pexuniverse.com/taco-007-f5-7ifc-circulator-pump
So my options are:
1. replace all pumps with IFC pumps (costly but no major piping required)
2. install spring-assisted FC (cheaper but lots of piping work)0 -
They are usually machined to take an IFC. Check the part number and call Taco to confirm.
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/131521/can-i-convert-a-taco-007-to-a-taco-007-ifc
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Actually the FAQ is partially correct about wether you can fit an IFC in a non-IFC pump. That is true for older pumps. the old original 007 pumps do not have the proper body to fit the IFC kit. However if you were to purchase a 007 pump that was made today, and it did not have the IFC already in it, then you could add the Kit. That is because Taco does not make a different pump body for the IFC pumps. Same pump body for both Taco 007-5F and taco 007-5F 7IFC if I recall correctly. But I don't have one on the shelf to verify That is why you should call Taco Tech Support. the number is 401-942-8000
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Any 007-F5 made with a date code of 2016 or newer will accept an IFC. The part# would be 0010-025RP.
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Just to the left of the round knockout on the capacitor box or if there is a black circular disc on the back end of the motor, it should be under the 007-F5 number and class. Always 4 digits to represent the month and year. Example 11/24
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Great, I will check tonight.
@EdTheHeaterMan @SteveSan Thanks a lot for your help! I really appreciate it.
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Earlier you mentioned that the installation date was 2008. That means that your pumps may have been made before 2016. Hope not. Look at all the pumps. You may have older and newer pumps if repairs were done, don't assume all the pumps are the same.
If you do have the older pumps, then you can use this check valve for your system. Caleffi NA51250. It will be a special order part because I can not find anyone online who has it listed in their inventory. @hot_rod will know if it is available for purchase somewhere. The part number I gave you is for the 3/4" size. That 3/4" pipe size has an outside diameter of 1.05". (the nominal inside diameter is 3/4"). Double check your pipe size: a 1" nominal pipe size is 1.31" diameter on the outside. I believe you may have both sizes.
The Caleffi valve can take the place of this shore pipe.
Just being prepared for the worst. Hope the IFC kit will work for you, If not there are other options available.Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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