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Is it time to replace my outdoor oil tank? (Urgent)

2

Comments

  • MaxMercy
    MaxMercy Member Posts: 518
    edited May 16

    I just paid $2.75 per gallon..

    And, at my commercial building I'm spending $800 a year just for "delivery" charges for NG even when I shut the boiler down for six months - that's like another tank of oil plus of free heat.

  • mcryp123
    mcryp123 Member Posts: 29

    Great advice for the spring fill! Will keep that in mind.

  • mcryp123
    mcryp123 Member Posts: 29

    Just scheduled with a professional to come check my basement out and get a quote for the install. Will keep you all posted!

  • mcryp123
    mcryp123 Member Posts: 29

    So this oil tank service professional I called told me over the phone that he could pump out a portion of my old oil into a new tank if I get the Roth tank since it's plastic inside and the bacteria wouldn't affect my new tank. Is there any truth to that? Or you guys think he's just trying to get me hire him ASAP instead of waiting for my oil to run out?

  • mcryp123
    mcryp123 Member Posts: 29

    Update: An oil tank professional inspected my basement and confirmed that while a Roth tank won't fit through my narrow hallway, a Granby Double Wall tank will. However, to fit it in, I need to hire someone to remove the stair railing and a 2x4 at the bottom of my staircase, which will add extra costs. Additionally, I'll need a tiger loop and preference relay for my two centrally located burners, extra costs needed as well.

    I now understand why the previous owner opted for an outdoor tank to avoid these hassles and costs. I'm considering placing a double wall outdoor tank on a leveled concrete pad where the old tank was. Only thing now is to decide which oil tank to pick! Another professional mentioned that a Roth outdoor tank requires a roof due to its flat top, adding more installation cost, whereas a Granby Double Wall tank doesn't need a roof. Can anyone confirm if this is true? If so, I'm leaning towards the Granby Double Wall tank with its 25-year warranty.

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,340

    The old oil line connected to the outdoor tank should be completely eliminated and removed. Seal the hole. Brand new coated oil line from the new tank to the burner, with a new oil filter complete. Not just the cartridge.

    IDK what you mean about "4 pipes in total coming out of my house". The fill and vent on the existing outside tank will be gone when the tank is gone. You'll have one new fill and one new vent poking out the side of the house. That's it.

  • mcryp123
    mcryp123 Member Posts: 29

    "Brand new coated oil line from the new tank to the burner, with a new oil filter complete. Not just the cartridge." Would the same still apply if I decide to go with an outdoor tank replacement?

  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,339

    Yes it would.

    A Highland Petrohopper is a steel oil tank that is secured in an outer tank. You could buy more oil than you would typically need and save money in the process and have excess oil for an extended period if you are stuck without a regular delivery due to a snowstorm.

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,340

    ABSOLUTELY. Only the filter canister would be inside.

  • Dave Carpentier
    Dave Carpentier Member Posts: 620
    edited May 17

    Conventional wisdom is to leave them full. I recently took my 20yr old exterior tank out of service (replaced with Roth) and had the need to cut a 2x2' panel out of the side of it, so I ended up being able to take a look inside. It's been standing up on-end for nearly two years, so the bottom is nicely dried out. When I hit it with a hammer, it sounds like good metal. Visually, only the slightest of flash rust which I could probably remove with steel wool. No roughness or 'rot' that I can see.

    I attribute this to having the tank tipped towards the outlet and always running it dry. In the summer, maybe any slight condensation on the interior managed to run down into the copper line (which had been somewhat evacuated by the burner pump). Just my experience, anyhow.

    30+ yrs in telecom outside plant.
    Currently in building maintenance.
    mcryp123
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,501

    I would do what it takes and install an indoor tank. You will be much better off in the long run do it right and get it over with.

    Outdoor tanks should only be use when there is no alternative. They also make smaller tanks that you could put two of them in if one will not fit.

    mcryp123WMno57SuperTech
  • mcryp123
    mcryp123 Member Posts: 29

    Getting anther pro to come look today and crossing my fingers!

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,404
    edited May 17

    At this point in time, You may want to have that new basement tank installed now, then have it filled over the summer so it is ready when you run out of oil in the outdoor tank. Install new fuel line from the bottom of the new tank to the burner. You can place the oil filter near the burner or you can place the filter near the tank. With an indoor tank both filter locations are acceptable.

    You can time your delivery to make a deal for the lowest cost oil as you wait for the old tank to run out.

    IMPORTANT

    WARNING

    NOTICE

    AND ALL THOSE OTHER WORDS USED TO GET YOUR ATTENTION

    When you get your first delivery, you need to have a lookout on the inside in order to quickly let the delivery driver know to STOP if there is a leak in your new tank. Every oil driver knows this. but your driver may not know that this is a first time delivery, and may not know to follow the first time delivery protocol.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    mcryp123CLamb
  • mcryp123
    mcryp123 Member Posts: 29

    Awesome thanks for the advise. One thing came up in my discussion with the pro was that I have a burner and a water heater. Does this mean I'd need 2 tiger loops if I am getting a Roth in the basement? Or 1 tiger loop and a preference relay?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,404

    Both options are acceptable. and I believe that the priority relay is a great option. the only remote problem 20 years from now when the water heater thermostat gets stuck in the call for heat position, and the burner cycles on the high limit, you will have no heat for the duration of the demand for hot water. If this happens when ou are away skiing over a long presidents day weekend, your heater will not operate until you get back home to your frozen pipes home to correct the problem.

    But if the priority relay is connected properly, you can avoid this. By letting the DHW burner power the heating burner (thru the limit) when a manual reset limit is tripped. Ask me for that diagram if you are interested.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    mcryp123
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,501
    edited May 18

    If you have a oil fired WH your probably not going to run out of hot water. If it was me I would make heat the priority. It's more important to keep the house from freezing.

    Your above post said the Roth would not fit down your narrow hall???? So are you back to the Roth or the Granby?

    also, no one has answered the question or speculated as to why an outside tank was installed previously instead of an inside tank.

    I know of no jobs where an outside tank was installed when a tank could have been installed in the basement.

    Granby also has 120, 138 and 240 gallon tanks

    mcryp123
  • mcryp123
    mcryp123 Member Posts: 29
    edited May 20

    Ok so interestingly, another oil service pro came for a visit and did some measurement. They told me that they can manage to fit in a Roth tank and deal with my staircase rail and the 2 by 4. Now my hope is back for putting a Roth in the basement! My only one concern so far is that, the pro told me he doesn't know what a preference relay is and he said 1 tiger loop will be enough to support both my water heater and burner… is this a red flag? His quote though is so far the lowest among quite a few companies I've asked. Plus, their online reviews are fairly decent.

    EdTheHeaterMan: do you see any problem down the line with 1 tiger loop without a preference relay?

    EBEBRATT-Ed: The outdoor tank was newly replaced when the house went on sale. I am going to have to speculate that the prior owner was on a rush to replace the tank before selling the house, and they saw the outdoor tank option to be a lower-cost, quick and dirty alternative as they even put concrete blocks instead of a proper concrete pad, as far as I can tell. Putting a tank in the basement probably would have cost them more as the staircase rail has to be taken down and a tiger loop would be required to install and so forth.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,501

    I would use a priority relay if using overhead lines. The alternative is to use a separate overhead oil line to each appliance and a common return. That is what I would do. and eliminate the priority relay

    mcryp123
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,200

    Strongly consider replacing it with a Roth tank similar to the one pictured here. They are a great choice for your situation.

    mcryp123
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,317

    @Intplm.


    Why are Roth tanks so great?

    I genuinely don't know, and I'm sure many that come across this thread won't understand either.

    The only thing I know about them is they look like little outhouses and everyone loves them.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    Intplm.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,501

    The disadvantage to Roth is they insist on top feed instead of bottom feed. Nothing wrong with top feed if you know how to flare tubing and pipe the oil lines tight.

    Since many can't apparently do that (just look at the posts relating to oil line suction leaks) this make overhead lines an issue Roth tank or any tank.

  • mcryp123
    mcryp123 Member Posts: 29

    Do you mean you would use a priority relay plus a tiger loop for the burner?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,404
    edited May 20

    "If it was me I would make heat the priority"

    The whole concept of DHW priority is so you don't take a cold shower. Consider this, you want to take a shower and the outdoor temperature is 30 degrees when you wake up, or (in out cases where we get very dirty at work) get home from work, and the boiler or furnace is operating. After you use the water in the tank, you will get a cold shower. unless the burner is operating to heat the tank. With DHW priority, you do not have that problem. It has been an industry standard since before you or I were born Ed. Ever since tankless coils were introduced into boilers. If you give priority to the Space Heating burner, and the call for heat is 30 minutes or longer, you will need to take a break from showering until the call for heat is satisfied. That would not fly in a home with teenage daughters… Just Sayin'

    On the other hand, DHW demands (for a shower) are usually less than 15 minutes. So, the DHW oil burner can interrupt the Space heating burner for over 15 minutes and you may have a 1°F temperature drop during that shower. As soon as the shower is completed, the DHW burner will satisfy and the priority relay will allow space heating to recover 15 minutes later that it would have. Usually not a big deal.

    With this new (time tested industry standard) information, what's your opinion on Space Heating Priority now Ed?

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    mcryp123
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,404

    A priority relay that is activated by the orange wire of the water heater burner's primary control is the best way to do this. We have used this when we need to vent two oil burners into the same chimney and discover that the chimney can not handle two burners operating at the same time. Relay is less expensive than a second chimney in most cases.

    Same holds true if the fuel system can not handle two burners operating at the same time. If the relay is less expansive than the repiping or other fixex, then the relay is the best answer.

    Look at all your options. and select the lowest cost one. Relay or fuel line repairs/replacement. Can your existing fuel line used as a 2 pipe system handle 34 Gallon per hour flow rate? that would be the gear set capacity of a typical mini pump like the Suntec A2VA series of pumps (times two).

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • mcryp123
    mcryp123 Member Posts: 29

    EdTheHeaterMan I think I've gotten a grasp what a priority relay is purposed to do after reading your simple to understand intro. With that said, the oil tank service technician told me that to install a Roth tank in my basement, 1 tiger loop will be enough to support my water heater and burner, he didn't mention anything about priority relay to me, does that make sense to you?

    Since my outdoor tank has been working with both my water heater and burner just fine the past 14 years, I am speculating here that I might already have a priority relay installed in my unit? So that's why the tech told me he just needs to put in 1 tiger loop for the indoor Roth to work?

    I've attached a picture of my unit which is located in the center of the basement for your reference.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,404

    With a Riello burner on the water heater tank, you do not just place a relay on the orange wire, like I said earlier. The best advise I can give you for the relay connection is to place that relay coil in the L terminal which is the same as the 5 terminal on the primary control tab. Then use the normally closed contacts on the relay to break the limit wire to the primary control on the space heating furnace or boiler

    From the photo you posted, I can not see if that relay is there. You might need to remove a cover from an electrical box, water heater temperature control or the riello burner cover to reveal that. I can tell you that if both burners operate at the same time, EVER, then you do hot have a priority relay on the water heater.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    mcryp123
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,404

    It is easy to add the relay like this.

    Attach the relay to the water heater thermostat box, Connect the 120 VAC coil to the wires that connect to the L and N that go to the oil burner to the control or wire nut connection.

    Then use the Normal closed contacts from the relay to break the wire that goes to the limit from the boiler control (usually marked B1)

    This is the relay I would use.

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Functional-Devices-RIBU1C-Enclosed-Pilot-Relay-10-Amp-SPDT-w-10-30-Vac-DC-120-Vac-Coil?_br_psugg_q=rib+relay

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    mcryp123
  • mcryp123
    mcryp123 Member Posts: 29

    Thanks for the insightful analysis and charting, EdTheHeaterMan! Since this is above my pay grade, I will be deferring your graphs to the tank service company.

    In terms of tiger loops, I read somewhere online that If the Riello burner and the water heater tank share the same oil supply line and are relatively close to each other, one Tiger Loop installed before the line splits to each appliance might be sufficient.

    Based on the photo I provided earlier, are you able to tell if 1 tiger loop will be sufficient? My installation comes with 1 free tiger loop. I would need to pay for an additional tiger loop if 2 are needed.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,501

    I am not sure that 2 burners will work on 1 overhead suction line reliably

  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,408

    Probably should estimate how long you plan to stay in the house, and how large your hot water needs are.

    Other ways to make hot water besides Diesel fuel.

    I realize you already own the Diesel fired water heater, but If you were building from a clean sheet of paper???

    Do you purchase a combustion analysis on the water heater annually?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,404
    edited May 23

    One overhead suction line can handle a lot more that 3 gallons per hour. The problem is when you need to handle two oil burners with a 2 pipe system on both burners. then you are looking at over 30 gallons per hour flow rate when both burners operate at the same time. That will not work. I have learned this the hard way.

    In the instruction manual I see that you should use only one oil burner pump per Tigerloop.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,404

    You could try this piping arrangement. Since the water heater runs all year at least a couple of minutes every 6 hours or so. The tiger loop will get exercised daily, you can depend that any small amount of air that might find it's way to the burners, will be deaerated regularly. If you place a Tee fitting between the filter and the tigerloop and make sure the branch of the tee is not pointing UP, so air can't float into the space heating line. than you can be pretty sure that the space heating burner will not get air bound and need priming on a regular basis.

    If that fails to work than you can add the second tiger loop later if needed.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • mcryp123
    mcryp123 Member Posts: 29

    Thanks for the details and diagram.

    Just to clarify on the lingos and terms, is diagram you suggested considered a 1 pipe system or a 2 pipes system?

    Using this system from your diagram with one overhead oil line as I can tell, is the priority relay setup you introduced earlier still needed? If i'm undestanding this correctly, without the priority relay, my two burners can be operating at the same time drawing oil from the Roth tank through 1 overhead oil line.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,501

    @EdTheHeaterMan two burners and 1 suction with lift will never work. One pump is always stronger and the burner will fight each other for oil and one will always loose. People in the past would try and fix it with check valves which didn't work. Putting one burner on priority might work. With one overhead line??? wh knows it may work or it may not. If the oil is actually syphoning so there is + pressure at both burners it might be ok (especially with a full tank. Throw TLs into the mix not sure what that would do. Oil lines always were a PITA

    mcryp123
  • mcryp123
    mcryp123 Member Posts: 29

    It sounds to me that my an outdoor Roth tanks would be much less headache to me due to the need to install an additional oil line, priority relay and double tiger loops that might be required to have a good system for an indoor Roth tank. Versus putting an above ground Roth tank outdoor, with only the replacement of a new oil link from the new outdoor tank to my burner. This way, I could have a Roth tank for at lease 30 years of life expectancy. The cost to install it outdoor should be lower outdoor as well. What do you guys think?

  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,408

    @mcryp123 asked: It sounds to me that my an outdoor Roth tanks would be much less headache to me

    No. For three reasons.

    1. Heating oil has wax in it. At cold temperatures, the wax clumps and causes problems. Warm fuel = less problems. Also, an indoor tank will get less water in it. Water bad for BioDiesel.
    2. For all future maintenance and repairs, everything is in the basement. The tech can check over the entire system easily. Shorter, simpler lines that are 100 percent accessible.
    3. Your lot has a slope. An outdoor tank, will need both a pad and embankment (to prevent subsidence of the pad).

    Get an indoor fuel tank. If your hot water needs are not large, get an electric water heater. They are cheap and simple.

    In our new world of supply chain problems and lack of skilled labor, I want LESS systems in my house that have to be working 24x7x365. The few systems that have to be highly available, I want everything in them to be simple and available at the local big box store.

    Currently, both your chimney and oil delivery system is 24x7x365.

    I have a natural gas boiler and electric resistance water heater. I won't need NG till November. I have the whole summer to have the gas company replace my meter and get new gas lines.

    I don't know anything about Tiger Loops. Are TLs a fix for poor design? If the design is kept simple, is there less of a need for TL?

    mcryp123
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,317

    @WMno57

    Is that wax similar to paraffin wax?

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,408
    edited May 22

    @ChrisJ

    Long chain hydrocarbons. Wax or paraffin, similar enough. Clogs fuel filters and worse case, blocks fuel delivery and no heat. Some equipment has heated filter housings. Not an issue above 32F, because the wax is dissolved.

    2D (most BTUs most wax, most lubricity)

    Winterized 2D (less BTUs, less wax, less lubricity, more $)

    1D (kerosene) (even less BTUs, no wax, less lubricity more $$)

    Indoor tank, run 2D year round, get the annual combustion analysis done on 2D. Simple.

    HHO is 2D. Comes from the same production stream in the refineries. All low sulfur now. Less than 15 ppm sulfur. The refiners have solved the early lubricity problems with low sulfur fuel. BioDiesel is great for lubricity. But microbes think BioD is tasty. So keep the water and light out.

  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,339
    edited May 22

    I am asking this as homeowner that has had deal with oil heat when needed:

    How old is the existing boiler???

    Would it be worth examining replacing it with a new cast iron boiler with a Domestic Hot Water coil and using/firing the oil fired hot water heater in the non heating season only by piping the domestic hot water in series from the coil to the oil fired hot water heater installing a cool water mixing valve on the line feeding the oil fired hot water heater.

    By doing the above you could pipe in a ball valve for the new boiler fuel line and a second ball valve feeding a new oil line to the hot water heater and simply open the valve feeding the burner on the water heater in the non heating months.

    A new boiler with Domestic Hot Water coil would preheat the water going to the hot water tank in any case and a mixing valve would cool it down to prevent scalding.

    It would be worth your time to find out what if any programs/grants are available through your states Heating Energy Assistance Program to replace your boiler and possibly obtain an oil tank as well.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,404

    You are correct if you live in Pennsylvania, New,Jersey, lower parts of New York state where the normal cold temperature rarely goes in the the Below Zero°F overnight. In the more northern areas where below zero is a normal occurrence, maybe not so much. Although there are many additives to keep your oil viable in those temperatures, I have found in my little area of the world, Southern New Jersey, There are some fuel oil in some tanks that will always have problems that will cause burner failure that are self correcting once the temperature rises above that problem threshold.

    I can say from experience, If the weather forecast called for temperatures below +17°F, I was guaranteed at least one no heat call as a result of the fuel tank temperature. It was usually a new customer that was unable to get a fuel oil dealer to respond "because you don't purchase our oil". I would then recommend something like a tiger loop, or tank maintenance, or a Scully Snorkel tank gauge with a fuel surface pickup line. Then I would recommend one of the 5 oil dealers that did not have a service department, who recommended me to their customers.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?