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Roughing in Heights..

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Comments

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,823

    when we had a plumbing business in the mountains, slow drains were often caused by frosted over vents

    I believe there is or was a frost closure requirement in the UPC which was one pipe size larger through the roof. Use the fixture units to determine the vent, then one size ip starting 12” under the roof


    At least that is what inspectors looked for

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    HomerJSmithMad Dog_2
  • Teemok
    Teemok Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 677

    Larger diameter vent termination means less chance of snow bridging. Makes sense for air intake needs and sewer gas release reasons. I apprenticed in Maine. They used to get good snow and vent termination enlargement was not a thing there.

    Hmmm, it seems by definition, water traveling in plumbing drain piping is normally in a type of two phase flow.

    If slow drains can really be caused by vent blockage, you would think the the explanation for it would be easy to describe and would be taught to apprentices everywhere. Even if it was a bit complicated. Pointing to two phase flow isn't doing it for me.

    I'm trying to conceptualize it: The vent provides a place for air to move out of the way in front of the water for the short piece of pipe between the trap and the vent take off. That "air in the way" event takes place just after the drain plug is pulled and once flow passes the vent it's no longer in the way. Air in front of the water could always move out of any other vent or down the drain to the sewer. Increasing pipe diameter as the water travels makes back pressure very unlikely. Horizontal flow is mostly separated exchange of space. Water below and air above in counter flow if needed. Air from the vent of the draining fixture can only be incorporated into the water flow. Incorporating more air would displace water and cause a more turbulent two phase flow. Wouldn't this mean a working vent would be more likely to cause air to be incorporated. This doesn't support the idea that a blocked vent slows draining via more turbulent two phase flow.

  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 4,243
    edited May 2024

    This is all a trap arm. There is a length & slope for a trap arm. No 90 deg allowed, max is 45 deg.

    From the 2009 UPC:


    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    Teemok
  • Teemok
    Teemok Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 677

    Ok, I woke up with a maybe plausible. If the sewer gas flow rate leaving the pipe system through the house's venting is high enough and a vent is blocked, it causes a continuous positive pressure condition inside the pipe and up stream flow gas velocity increases in the unblocked pipes. Water entering the pipe might be slowed by the countering gas leaving a working branch. The main would have a static pressure preventing gas from being pushed back into the septic or sewer. The volume of water going down displaces the gas volume and that adds to static gas counter pressure. Maybe?

    I see that lots of plumbers believe the idea that blocked vents do slow draining. I really would like to know how it works. It's written about in info ads. Many use the finger and straw analogy. Some point to internal vs external pipe pressure differences as a reasoning. I haven't found any complete explanation for the belief beyond word salad sales talk meant to satisfy the customer.

    I do understand that experience has its own valve beyond a scientific explanation. "I unblocked the clogged vent and water flows better again. What more proof do you want?" We humans used to kill epileptics because we "knew" they were possessed by demons. And that made perfect sense to all involved while also being completely untrue.

    Mad Dog_2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,360
    edited May 2024

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • Gsmith
    Gsmith Member Posts: 440

    @Teemok: I think what you refer to about blocked vents causing poor flow is simply if the air cannot escape through the vent then water, from the sink, toilet, shower, etc cannot enter the drain, until some air bubbles up through the fixture and allows space in the drain system for the water trying to drain. This happens often if fixtures are located between two traps with no vent in between. A friend had a case just like this recently with a new toilet installed and vented by an air admittance valve slightly upsteam. Must have had a trap in the drain line downstream of the toilet, probably a whole house trap with clogged or no vent. Toilet would flush, water in the basin would rise and toilet would drain very slowly while gurgling air bubbles, until the air admittance valve was removed when it would drain normally. Air has to leave the drain system through the vent so the water being drained has space to flow.

    Teemok
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,360

    I could see that easily happening with a septic tank or if the sewer is a bit backed up.

    I believe that's why all codes require at least one vent termination.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • Well, if @mattmia2 can somehow remove the attic AAV, we'll see if that's the problem.

    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,360

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • Teemok
    Teemok Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 677
    edited May 2024

    I get the double trap problem. That makes good sense. Most areas don't have whole house traps. Aren't double traps illegal in all but NY and some other older places. An air Admittance (meaning only letting air into the pipe) valve above another trap with no other vent in play is an obvious problem. I still don't see how a properly plumbed system with a blocked fixture vent would slow draining. Maybe if it's on septic and all vents combine to one and it's capped. If there's nothing preventing the air in the drain from moving down the drain and out another vent I don't see how it can slow water down measurably. The finger over straw analogy doesn't apply in the double trap cases. The finger prevents air admittance preventing the straw from draining.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 11,150

    I don't think i really went to town because i wanted some chance of removing it later but it is also under the duct out the sidewall for my range hood.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,823

    this study about the hydraulics of the system and frost closures, 1954. A bit before I held a wrench😯


    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Teemok
    Teemok Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 677

    @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Solving Matt's problem and understanding how a blocked vent slows draining in typical plumbing might be two different things. Long dirty arms with a 90, wet vented, with an AAV isn't typical plumbing. Who knows what's down stream from the sink. I've seen a full commercial sink set ups tied to old gunked up 1.5" galv. under the floor and they wonder why it won't drain all three sinks in a hurry.

    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,360
    edited May 2024

    Here's NJ's code on frost closure. Section 12.5

    This the 2021 edition.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,823

    always check with the code used in your area

    Some states have their own codes, some have addendums to the nation codes

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,360
    edited May 2024

    NJ uses a modified version of NSPC.

    An example of the modifications is the deletion of the frost closure part because it doesn't apply to anywhere in the state.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,321

    Try looking up "StudorVents" codes, standards and installation. I tried to place it here but it wouldn't load.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,360

    I assume AAV's are the same as any vent and must be 6" above the highest level any fixture on that drain can reach aka the fixture flood level. I could see two reasons.

    1: You don't want sewage etc dumping out of a vent

    2: You don't want debris getting stuck in the AAV and holding it open.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,823

    how would you get it above the sink on an island sink, that is one of the main applications

    Although dishwasher vacuum breakers are often above the sink next to a faucet

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,360
    edited May 2024

    Most places don't require vacuum breakers anymore.

    They have a checkvalve in the dishwasher and you're required to have the drain line anchored to the underside of the counter.

    Unless I missed it, I don't know of any code that allows an AAV below flood level.

    Island sinks get this :

    And I was incorrect.

    Apparently, at least NJ code does allow them under those conditions.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,625

    Hoare frost...I've seen it...it's like putting a piece of glass in top the vent terminal. MAD DOG

  • Shane_2
    Shane_2 Member Posts: 197

    That is how island sinks were vented before AAV(Studer) vents were approved. 2012 or 2015, I think I remember.

    Now everyone uses Studer vents for island sinks although the old "island sink venting" is allowed.

    NJ is the only state that uses NSPC. NY City stills uses it I believe. There has been talk for years now about switching.

    ChrisJ
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,823

    loop vents for island sinks still need that foot vent. It isn’t always possible to make that work if you have a long distance to the wall where the vent needs to go

    The vent needs to pitch up the drain down and you run out of joist depth at some point to make that work. Ir it drops into the ceiling of any finished room below as the pic shows

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Mad Dog_2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,360
    edited May 2024

    Yeah I saw some discussions about some hoping NJ would switch to IPC.

    It seems like UPC, IPC and NSPC are all very similar especially in their unmodified forms at least as far as the areas I was comparing.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    Mad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,625

    Chris..that's a great illustration of the Island Vent! The only thing I do additionally, is add two clean out tees on each vertical just before they disappear below the cabinet base. Mad Dog

    ChrisJ