Heat loss calculation
I have a bedroom that doesn’t heat as well as the rest of the house. The boiler was new 3 years ago, the plumber I talked to says the radiator is undersized for the room. I suspect the problem is more so due to flow/piping issues. Can anyone tell me if this is enough baseboard
9x11 x8 room
2 exterior walls
One 46”x56” window (wood frame double pane circa 1976)
8’ of 3/4 fin tube radiator on wall under window.
2x4 walls and standard bat insulation 1976 R-value.
Comments
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Is that radiator on its own thermostat?
If not, the calculus isn't whether that radiator is right-sized, it's how it compares to the other radiators that are on the same zone. That radiator could be perfectly sized, but if all the other radiators on that zone are double the size they need to be, the thermostat is going to keep the other rooms comfortable and that room chronically underheated.
So tell us about where the thermostat is and what other radiators are controlled by it and how they're connected.
A quick check is to look at the other rooms and see how many feet of exterior wall they have and how many feet of radiator. They should all be roughly the same.
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What is the supply temperature out of the boiler while the room is underheated?
Where is the thermostat located that controls the bathroom?
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You have a room that is 99 sq feet. At 30 BTUs per square foot x 99 = 2970 BTUs required. Average baseboard is 570 BTUs per foot.x 8= 4560. The problem is not a shortage of baseboard. If this room is the last one on a zone, it could be a water temperature issue. Not knowing what piping system you have ( series loop, mono flow or paralell flow ) Series loop systems where they put in too much baseboard on the loop. ( I use 60' of element as a cut off ) is a common problem.
Good luck
Steve
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@GroundUp old boiler was a high temp cast iron. New boiler is a Viessmann mod/con 200w. So the Viessmann is designed to run on lower supply temps for efficiency. But I suspect that it is due to the house running in “series”. And the 2 south bedrooms being on the end of the loop, that the supply temp is not satisfying that room.
I tried dampening all of the emitters in the main living area, on the coldest night last winter, to see if the temps would equalize. While it helped, the boiler would not keep up to the demand with the reduced output at the emitters (dropped 3 degrees Celsius in about 6 hrs, it was -41c here that night, -53 windchill or something like that.
My next idea, if we do a repipe, can I reverse the direction of flow in the heating system. Small rooms would heat first and larger rooms later, easier to dampen output in small rooms of the overheat? However, This would put zone valves on return side of the pipe runs……
Same in the basement, we have 2 large rooms and one bedroom, the room on the east side of the house is noticeably warmer than the west side, if the door separating the 2 areas is closed. So seems like the same issue as the upstairs to me. East side of house warming more than west side. (Our prevailing winds are from the west also, if this plays any part)0 -
If the radiators can be individually shut on and off — ie, they're not in series — one thought would be to put thermostatic valves on each radiator.
If you do that, you want the radiator closest to the thermostat to run the most. In other words, you want it to be undersized relative to the others. You can make it operate that way by throttling down the balancing valve on it.
If on the coldest nights the boiler is running full out and the house can't hold temperature, you need to increase the output. The simplest way is to increase the water temperature. Maybe look into an outdoor reset.
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Check the supply and return temp at both sides of radiator on the copper pipe at each end, see what the temp difference is, then compare it to other radiators where rooms tend to heat well. Best if you had a digital thermometer with a bare end thermocouple wire. Strap tightly to the copper pipe with a zip tie. Make sure boiler has been running a while and mostly up to temp. the in and out temp difference should be close to each other if getting decent flow.
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@tim smith I will do this, my boss has an infrared camera/thermometer I will borrow
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@DCContrarian the fin tubes are all ran in series, fart certain. I know this is the case in the basement because the piping runs around the entire perimeter of the house. Assuming the upstairs is piped in a similar fashion. I have not desire to rip out ceilings/drywall to confirm. If I went that far then I would be changing over to staple up in floor. Thanks for the input.
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@GGross the difference is most noticeable overnight/in the morning, when the door has been closed all night while the kids are asleep. Really at all supply temps the mod/con runs at there is a difference in temp. Although it becomes more noticeable with colder outdoor temps.
Thermostat in the hallway near the kitchen/living room end of the hall. Cold bedroom far end of hall on SW corner of house.
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@Mustangman we have 74’ of emitters on the top floor……. Just measured.
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Master bed 11x12. 2 ext walls one window 13’ of bb
Bed 2 as discussed 9x11 2 ext walls one window 8’ bb
Bed 3 8x11 one ext wall one window 6’ of bb
Kitchen/back entry 22x11 2 ext walls 2 windows one door 20’ of bb (6’ with larger fins at back door)
Front room/front entry 22x14 2 ext walls one large window one door, open airspace to basement(split level bungalow) 22’ of bb (3’ is larger fins by front door)
Bath 1 6x6 no ext walls 18” of bbBath 2 5x4 one ext wall one window 3’ of baseboard.
I get all rooms are 10-14.5 sq ft/ft of radiator.
cold room is 12.375.
Kitchen 12, front room 14.0 -
You can control output of radiators on a series loop by closing the air flow thru the baseboard with the damper that is included with the baseboard. This however will reduce the total output of the baseboard that is closed off. The result of that adjustment is to get the lower temperature room warmer. But if that reduced flow thru the baseboard on that series loop causes the ability of that loop to maintain temperature on design temp days (Coldest days) then the fix is not really a fix.
I would ask @Tonerlow how many feet of element is actually on the problem loop? i agree with @Mustangman with the maximum amount of actual element being 60' with zone valves, and maybe 75' without zone valves.
Regarding Outdoor reset, I believe that the boiler is a Mod/Con that already has ODR in the control system. But that was a good suggestion (before knowing what boiler was there).
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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It's not the floor square footage that matters for heat loss, it's the amount of exterior wall.
That said, what's above and below these rooms? If you have unheated space above or below then square footage does matter.
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When you mentioned "dampening" the radiators, did you mean turning down a balancing knob, or just closing the louvers on the baseboard?
When the radiators are in a loop like that it's common to use monoflo tees, which allow you to use a single loop, which saves piping, but still allows for balancing valves on each radiator. If you look in the basement you can see if there is a tee at each end of each section of baseboard, with a pipe that bypasses the radiator.
If you have tees like that you can do some sort of balancing, either manual or automatic. If you don't the only way to change the balance is to change out the radiators.
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Ed: "But if that reduced flow thru the baseboard on that series loop causes the ability of that loop to maintain temperature on design temp days (Coldest days) then the fix is not really a fix."
That's the essential question here: is it just a balancing problem that can be fixed by adjusting the balance, or is there a capacity problem that can only be fixed by adding more capacity? Or perhaps both?
TonerLow, do you have much heating season left? Usually the best way to answer these questions is through careful observation.
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If you were to read this booklet I used in my Hydronics Seminar, Zoning Made Easy
You would be able to answer all the questions in this workbook. So If you were to look at this question on page 6 of the workbookThen you would see that your 75 feet of element at the maximum based on rule of thumb 170° average water temperature with a 20° temperature difference (∆T) between the inlet and outlet of the boiler.
Now consider this, with the ModCon boiler reset curve set to offer lower water temperature What is the possibility that the ∆T is somewhat different and since the starting temperature is much lower, will the resulting ending temperature be low enough to cause the radiator in the last room to be insufficient? This may be a result of incorrect near boiler piping, If the new circulator on the system loop is moving the heated water thru the loop slower, then the heat can be released to the other rooms and by the time it gets to the last radiator the temperature just ain’t there If you are not using the proper piping design from the I/O manual, then your flow rates may be way off from the flow rates you had with the old boiler.
I know that you can set the ODR to operate like the old boiler with higher operating temperature all the time.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@DCContrarian just referring to the Louver yes. As far as I know there are no balancing valves, if so they are above my finished basement ceiling. I could have a peek up there sometime
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@EdTheHeaterMan yes already have outdoor reset set up. 74’ of heating element on the top floor, I’m guessing 140’ of total piping. Someone else has suggested shooting the temps of the radiators which I am going to try and see what I learn from that.
My other question was, if I repiped the boiler room, would it be as simple as reversing the direction of flow? This would cause the colder rooms to warm first (they are on the wind exposed side of the house). They could potentially overtemp, but it would be very easy to retard the convection on a small amount of baseboard to achieve balance. Right now I cannot reduce the output in the large main living areas enough to balance the heat, or I have sacrificed too much output for the system to keep up. Does this make sense to you?
Reversing the flow would also put the zone valves on the return side……. is this potentially problematic.
As your tag line says Ed, trying to avoid spending on a fix that turns out to not be the right fix.
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I edited my last post. So re-read the bottom.
Regarding repiping the boiler room, you can reverse the flow thru the loop but change the return zone valve direction so the arrow is pointing the correct direction. However, I believe that will not get you where you want to be. I think you need to adjust the reset curve temperature higher and check the near boiler piping design compared to the I/O manual. Some installers done believe in Primary Secondary piping design. They install boilers the way their grandfather did because that is how their daddy showed them. And Grand-pop can't be wrong!
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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If it uses monoflos it can't be reversed.
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Also remember that the text book I took the information from was printed sell before the ECM motor was widely used for circulator pumps. So many of the practices, although sound for on off pump motors, may have to be adjusted for the equipment you have in place.
Can you post pictures of the near boiler piping from far enough back to see the pumps and circulators and zone valves if you have them? Maybe one from the left side from floor to ceiling looking slightly down and another from the right side looking slightly up
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@EdTheHeaterMan Yes in fact this is a VEISSMANN 200W piped direct without primary/secondary separation. Most of the problems likely begin and end there. Thanks for the input. I just thought if we were repiping anyways and adding a LLH, that reversing the flow direction would have possible positives, and should have no negatives….. that I know of, but that’s why I’m here.
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Did the problem room have that problem with the old boiler?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@EdTheHeaterMan honestly I am not sure, it was a spare room when we owned the house with the old boiler, rarely used it. Now it is one of our kids rooms, with the new boiler, and staying too cool. So I don’t have a definitive answer to that question
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this one has stuff labeled on it
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This is a good observation. I have wondered for 6 yrs of living here why there is a thin strip of wall board near the top of all the basement walls. Maybe it is to access these balancing valves……. I will have to have a look. Thanks
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The Monoflo® tee idea is not probable. Since you can see that the first floor is a series loop, it is highly unlikely that there is anything other than a series loop upstairs. A second clue is that you can purge all the air from a series loop system at the boiler room (basement), but you can NOT purge a Monoflo® tee system. Each pair of tee branches must have their own vent at the high point of that branch loop. Purging will not force water from the One Pipe Main up a branch tee across the radiator or convector and back down the return to the One Main Pipe. Gravity don’t work that way.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@GGross @EdTheHeaterMan @tim smith @hot_rod @DCContrarian @Mustangman
So I just spoke to the previous homeowner. Says he observed this problem also with the old cast iron boiler. The house is a split level bungalow where they made the upstairs level larger than the basement, if you are familiar. Lots of them up here in SK from 70s-80s. The problem I may have to look into is actually if the front of the house which overhangs, has adequate insulation in the floor…………
This makes quite a bit of sense why the temp difference increases as outside temp decreases. This room may be experiencing greater heat loss than the rest of the house. Other rooms that overhang are another bedroom, but it only has one exterior wall vs 2. And the living room, which has alot of shared air from the basement, kitchen, hallways, etc.Still wouldn’t mind to change the piping. If for nothing else, to not hear glycol running through the choked down ball valve 24-7. But maybe with more insulation I will be able to leave that bypass fully open and eliminate that noise, who knows.
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”coin vents” for air purge on top level
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There's a good chance that someone went before you doing the same sort of diagnosis.
Usually the balancing valve is under the cover at one end of the baseboard but you could put them under the floor.
If part of the house is over basement and part over crawl space that would explain why the heating loads for different rooms are so different. I would say the chance that a house built in 1976 has a well-insulated crawlspace is near zero.
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I'd say it's worth opening up one of those access panels just to be certain how the circuit is plumbed.
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I was mistaken, the panels are only on interior walls for running cables through the house I think. None on exterior walls under radiators…..
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not even over a crawl space, simply over top of outside air
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Check the Cv on that zone valve it is restricting the flow more than you think. I had a bad experience with a Honeywell zone valve that was undersized.
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The installer of the new Viessman made a mistake in using the wrong zone valve for job. If the installer used the existing zone valves or replaced the zone valves with these
, either way it is the wrong one. I believe that configuration of the V8043 valve has a Cv rating of 3.5 or maybe 4.0. If the installer replaced the zone valves with V8043 that looked like this
Has a Cv over 7.0 or even as high as 8.0. That valve you have is restricting the flow of water to that zone/loop. Get better zone valves for that 70+ ft of element upstairs. If you look at the Workbook illustration from page 6 posted above, and use the basic rule of thumb on the Zoning Made Easy Textbook on page 6 you can clearly see that the poor design will cause the problem you are experiencing. Get the near boiler piping correct and get a less restrictive zone valve, and your temperature difference will be reduced because your pipe can carry more BTUs of heat.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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If upgrading the zone valves does not completely solve the problem, then you may want to consider adding 1" PEX from the boiler room to a midpoint in that second floor loop. some place where it is easy to hide the 1" pipe in a closet on the first floor or a place that the pipe must be exposed on the first floor and then boxed in or covered with a decorative molding.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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At this point you have to decide whether it was once working and has stopped, which means it needs to be fixed, or whether it was never working, which means it needs to be redesigned.
In terms of fixes, if it is a string of radiators in series, your options are pretty limited. You can increase the heat output of the string by increasing the water temperature or the flow rate. You can decrease the drop in output from first to last by increasing the flow. How you get there is a separate question, but those are your two options.
There are ways to change the balance between rooms, but they are so invasive I wouldn't just do them based on guesswork. My inclination at this point would be to do at least a back-of-the-envelope check of the engineering. The standard is to do a room-by-room Manual J, I know there is free software that can help with it. Once you have the room-by-room heating loads you can compare them to what's there and see if that's ever going to give good results, or if it's just too far removed from what's needed and you need to start making changes.
The most difficult part about doing Manual J is in an existing house you have to make educated guesses about what the existing insulation is, and often that's not apparent. What I like to do is follow the process laid out in this article:
to calculate the whole house heating load based upon your actual fuel usage and weather history. Then do the room by room, add up the rooms and compare to the whole-house. Keep adjusting your assumptions until the room-by-room is reasonably close to the whole-house.
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That may be a 3Cv valve as it looks like all the flare and inverted flare models with that number are 3cv.
But even if you are flowing a high gpm of 4 gpm, the pressure drop is very low. 1.78 ps1 or about 4' of head.
Splitting the loop if possible, makes the best sense.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0
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