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Compression tank loop

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steve93T4R
steve93T4R Member Posts: 5
edited December 2023 in Gas Heating
Hello all. Recently sprung a leak in compression tank for residential gas fired boiler for home heat. Concerned about the piping logic. Attached pic shows current set up; water supply to boiler has tee to the compression tank. Is this correct? I've seen other similar set ups with the line out  from boiler to system/radiators also feeding the compression tank.

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  • steve93T4R
    steve93T4R Member Posts: 5
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    Hello all. Recently sprung a leak in compression tank for residential gas fired boiler for home heat. Concerned about the piping logic. Attached pic shows current set up; water supply to boiler has tee to the compression tank. Is this correct? I've seen other similar set ups with the line out  from boiler to system/radiators also feeding the compression tank.     Heres the pic
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 560
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    I'm not a pro, just a homeowner, but our boilers are plumber in similar fashion, and the way your expansion tank is plumbed, with the tee where the makeup water comes in, is fine. You can replace the expansion tank and plumb it basically the same way.

    But if you're the homeowner, you may want to add an Airtrol fitting where the line enters the tank. The Airtrol will help keep air in the expansion tank instead of letting it circulate back into the heating system, where it comes out in your radiators that then need bleeding.

    I'm a homeowner who learned about Airtrols from the pros on this forum and recently installed one myself on our tank. They aren't made any more, but you can buy them used or new old stock on eBay. If you do decide to install one, you need to know your tank diameter, and then get the right length Airtrol. For tanks 12"-14" diameter, the ATF-12 is the correct length. The instructions below show how to install it properly. Ignore the other doodads shown; all you need is the "ATF", or Airtrol tank fitting.

    https://www.xylem.com/siteassets/brand/bell-amp-gossett/resources/manual/s10300h.pdf

    If you search this site for the keyword "Airtrol," you'll find a number of recent threads discussing them and proper installation. Note that for proper operation, they need a 3/4" line from the boiler to the tank, pitched as steeply as possible, ideally with no valves on the line that will interfere with the flow of air bubbles, though you can install a shutoff valve on the vertical part of the line where it comes up out of the boiler.
  • steve93T4R
    steve93T4R Member Posts: 5
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    Can't thank you enough, jesmed1. Excellent info, reference links and guidance.  Found ATF12 on ebay. And will add shut off valve too, makes perfect sense to be able to isolate tank side for the repair. I now have a plan of action, with confidence! Will sleep tonight knowing I got this nailed when the parts arrive. Thanks again!!
    jesmed1
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,318
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    Is the leak in your tank? You have an air over water plain steel tank. These can be hard to find. I replaced my A/W tank, like for like a couple years ago. Took me a week to find the tank.
    Two ways to deal with entrained air in hot water heat systems:
    Air Management (what you currently have)
    • Plain steel tank
    • Air scoop to manage air by moving in into tank
    • B&G Airtroll
    Air Removal
    • Bladder tank
    • Air removers such as Caleffi Micro Bubble
    Don't mix and match Air Management and Air Removal components.
    I DIY.
  • steve93T4R
    steve93T4R Member Posts: 5
    edited December 2023
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    Thanks WMno57 for the very helpful info. Yep, pinhole bottom of plain steel compression tank. Found a used one online which I'll go see tomorrow and found a source in Clinton Wi; Quality Tanks, super nice people but very reluctant to sell direct, they gave me First Supply as a distributor and First Supply basically said no to sourcing a plain steel tank and pushed the bladder set up...once they realized i was the end user, they opted to refer me to their suggested contractors. No worries, I get it. Kinda funny that Quality Tank refers me to one of their distributors who then steers me away from their offerings. Going to share that with Quailty Tanks today. Need to know info for Quality Tanks in my opinion..who knows,  maybe that'll sway them to sell direct to me. Thanks again for the help.
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 560
    edited December 2023
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    @steve93T4R Great, you're on your way to having less air in your radiators. If you have any problems finding a replacement plain steel tank, you might try your local Craigslist for a good used one. Or, here are some mfr's who still make plain steel tanks. You could contact them and see if they have a distributor in your area.

    http://www.johnwood.com/storage-tanks-plain-steel-expansion-compression-tanks/
    https://www.westank.com/expansion-tanks/expansion-compression-tanks/

    Also, @WMno57 mentioned an air scoop. I don't think you'll need one, as your Weil McLain may have an integral air separator inside the boiler casting at the port your expansion water line comes out of. Our Weil McLain WGO-5 boilers have those integral separators in the casting.
  • steve93T4R
    steve93T4R Member Posts: 5
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    Perfect! Now I'll find a tank for sure! Thanks again jesmed1..
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,149
    edited December 2023
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    I want to help you with this since I also have a 15 gallon steel compression tank, ATF-12 and an AIRTROL valve for my heating system.

    If you are going to reuse the refrigerant grade copper for the riser pipe to the new tank you will need to remove the old compression fitting in the tank very carefully or simply purchase a new one to fit the existing 3/4" female tapping on the ATF-12 AIRTROL Valve.

    The ATF-12 airtrol fitting has a female 3/4" National Pipe Thread tapping and a male 3/4" National Pipe Thread tapping that threads into the bottom of the tank.

    You can purchase a new steel compression tank from any B+G distributor in your local area to
    replace the existing tank.

    The price that ebay seller wants for that airtol valve is very, very high.

    Please, before you purchase that Airtrol valve from e-bay or that used steel tank please check with your local local B+G distributor, he or she can supply you with an ATF-12 Airtrol valve, steel compression tank and sight glass gauge for your system to replace the plain steel tank.

    If you can rent a pipe vice for a couple of days you will have less trouble installing the ATF-12 AIRTROL valve and the sight glass in steel compression tank OR the steel tank.

    steve93T4R
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,318
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    steve93T4R said:

    Thanks WMno57 for the very helpful info. Yep, pinhole bottom of plain steel compression tank. Found a used one online which I'll go see tomorrow and found a source in Clinton Wi; Quality Tanks, super nice people but very reluctant to sell direct, they gave me First Supply as a distributor and First Supply basically said no to sourcing a plain steel tank and pushed the bladder set up...once they realized i was the end user, they opted to refer me to their suggested contractors. No worries, I get it. Kinda funny that Quality Tank refers me to one of their distributors who then steers me away from their offerings. Going to share that with Quailty Tanks today. Need to know info for Quality Tanks in my opinion..who knows,  maybe that'll sway them to sell direct to me. Thanks again for the help.

    I have a Quality Tanks tank. It replaced a 70 year old Thrush tank. I drove to Clinton WI to buy from them direct. Great People and Great Product! Found out about them from @Hotrod .
    This is my problem with the HVAC Industry, Supply Houses, and "Pros". Too many of them go out of their way to cause problems for people like you and me. I'm not kidding, It wasted a week of my life, calling about 20 supply houses, setting up an account at one (they were willing to order one for me, would have had to wait even longer), having low life dirtbag counter boys insult me, etc.
    When my leak developed, I bought myself time by drilling, tapping and plugging the leak. I called my local pro first thing. Explained what I wanted to him. I think it was late Friday afternoon. He shows up Monday AM, with a bladder tank. I told him, no I want a plain steel tank. He tells me they are hard to find. I tell him that's what I want. He leaves. Calls me next day, tells me none of his supply houses can get one. I tell him, no problem, I'll get one, would you be able to install it? He says sure. I then wasted 4 full days of my life getting one.
    Quality explained to me their tanks are slow movers for supply houses. They have a hard time packaging and shipping a single without damage. Dents. They prefer to sell a pallet quantity to a supply house. Pros and Supply Houses don't want to carry a large inventory of obsolete slow moving parts. So consumable 10 year lifespan bladder tanks have taken over the world. Like crappy 10 year lifespan mod-cons.
    I have also bought from HeatingHelp sponser WWW.SUPPLYHOUSE.COM. I like them! They do not carry plain steel tanks though.
    Depending on your driving distance to Clinton, WI, it may make more sense for you to switch from Air Management to Air Removal. That will involve a fair amount of re-piping. Sweating copper, ProPressing copper, Oxy barrier Pex, and threaded steel pipe are all options. You can mix and match pipe materials in your system. If you go this direction you should also get some Caleffi doo dads. Specifically the Mr. Bubble air separator and a DirtMag.
    I DIY.
  • PeteA
    PeteA Member Posts: 175
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    just out of curiosity why go back with that type of tank instead of a modern type of expansion tank? What makes someone choose this style of the other? Is this house loaded with large radiators and that makes this the only option?
    Just curious
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,318
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    @PeteA
    Cost of a correct upgrade from Air Management to Air Removal. You might need two bladder tanks (they are smaller). Parts and Labor to repipe. Air Removal device(s). Dirt Magnet. The old style tanks are very tolerant of dirt and rust.
    It's like putting a digital dash, big blingy rims, and a small block chevy, in a classic International Harvester truck.
    I DIY.
    PeteA
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,149
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    @Peta,

    Speaking as a home owner:

    Adding an air scoop, more larger diameter pipe, isolation flanges and automatic air vents(which fail at the worst times) adds plumbing that is just more trouble.

    A steel compression tank or plain steel tank is with an ATF-12 AIRTROL Valve they much easier to own and you do not have to spend hours on your knees bleeding fin tube baseboard.

    Once the system is filled with the proper ratio of air to water and you start your boiler and circulator you turn the thermostat all the way up to heat the water and if the riser pipe is properly plumbed with an INTERNAL AIR SEPARATOR (IAS) or if your boiler has a cast baffle in the steam chest to slow down and divert air bubbles they will find the riser pipe to the ATF-12 AIRTROL valve and the water bubbles will rise into the steel tank and dissolve and cool water will sink back into the boiler minus any air bubbles.

    The other benefit is the weight of the water in the steel compression tank or plain steel tank keeping the circulator or circulators flooded with bubble free water.
    PeteAsteve93T4R
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,318
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    https://www.supplyhouse.com/AirTrol-Tank-Fittings-1238000

    I DIY.

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