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ESBE Mixing Valve/Logitech Question

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Hello. Long time reader of this forum, first time poster. Received much help from the info here over the years.

I'm an electrical contractor west of Boston. Have wired many boilers and controls over the years. This summer I did a remodel with an addition to my own house. I laid Warmboard R radiant in the entire addition and the remodeled rooms of the existing house. I ran all the pex and brought it to the manifolds and had the plumbing contractor do all the main piping and manifold connections.

I have an oil fired Buderus G125 with Logamatic R2107 control. After discussion with the plumbing contractor it was decided we would install the FM241 expansion card into the Logamatic to control a 3 wire floating mixing actuator. The plumber installed a Danfoss mixing valve with an ESBE actuator. There is no primary loop with a pump on this system. The system currently consists of a basic main rigid manifold with two zone pumps. These pumps feed baseboard in the untouched 2nd floor area and a first floor untouched baseboard in the living room. A line from this manifold was taken to feed the hot side of the radiant mixing valve. The cold/return was piped back from the mixing valve to the return boiler manifold. The radiant system pump was installed after the mixed output of the valve. The radiant system has two manifolds with Uponor zone valves opening and closing the loops by zone controlled Taco zone control relays with end switches to call the pump. We just got our first cold blast this winter and the heating system as a whole seems to be working ok.

All that to ask this question. With all the boilers I have wired this is my first Logamatic to ESBE actuator. Nor have I seen one run. I have wired Uponor radiant controls in the past. Is it normal for the Logamatic to constantly be making the ESBE actuator adjust? I mean non stop other than a second or two for temp check I assume. Back and forth. Its not a major swing, but it's almost like the Logamatic is hunting for the right mixed temp, but keeps overshooting it. Or like it's not waiting long enough for the mixed sensor to report back it's temp and then when it does get the info it's too late and needs to stop and swing the other way, only to repeat. (The mix sensor was originally located 3' away from the valve. I moved it to 12" away from the valve to see if it would help reaction time. It did not.) It would seem the system needs to move the valve in smaller increments and wait for the temp from the sensor. Then adjust. It is doing that in a way. But it is over shooting the hot input by adding too much hot water. Then it compensates by swinging back to mixing in more return water, but goes too far and cools down too much, then compensates by swinging back to hot, but again overshoots and keeps cycling back and forth like this. I can put my hand on the pipe and feel the temp swings. The Uponor systems I am more used to make much smaller adjustments, wait, adjust, wait, adjust etc, all with far less mixed temp water swings.

I understand there will be some adjustment going on to compensate for a cooling boiler or cooling return water or room temp swings etc. But is it normal for constant back and forth adjustments? Perhaps it is. I just need someone who has seen this setup work tell me if it's normal or what might be wrong. It seems to swing back and forth a 15-20 degree or so range.

Thanks for the help.
Mic

Comments

  • Bill_17
    Bill_17 Member Posts: 68
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    Micmann, Assuming it is all properly piped and pumped and wired, an ESBE motorized valve should not continuously "hunt", the control should be allowing it to pause regularly. Three things, combined or individually, would cause this. First, check the Logamatic to see if there is a setting which can be adjusted to match the actuator's rotation speed. If available in this control, this feature will give you the ability to adjust the "on time" of power to the actuator's rotation speed and help avoid the under and over shooting of the target temperature. Secondly, an oversized valve for the load could be the culprit and finally, selecting an actuator with too fast a rotation speed. Usually, actuators with a 90 degree rotation speed of about 90 seconds (for 90 degrees of rotation) or more are used on radiant mixing circuits. Start by studying the manual for the control and let us know how you make out. Bill
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
    edited December 2019
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    Do you have the sensor making good contact with the pipe & wrapped in insulation?
    15-20 seems way too high. I would move it farther from the mix, past the circulator and make sure up stream is all straight pipe, or as much straight pipe as you can get.
    Exactly what valve are you using?

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Micmann
    Micmann Member Posts: 6
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    Thanks for offering some information.

    Bill: No setting I can find in the Logamatic to change actuator rotation speed. Oversized valve could be a problem. Not exactly sure how to determine since I'm on the wiring side and not pipe side. Documentation about the Logamatic with a FM 241 mixing valve card is extremely limited. The only reference I can find to an actual recommended actuator comes from my original manuals. It has one note about a ESBE VM-62. All newer manuals just state an ESBE valve. Old or new manuals do not have recommended rotation speeds. The VM-62 is no longer in production and tech info is hard to come by. I'm running a ESBE ARA663 which is supposed to be a replacement for the VM-62. The rotation speed of my actuator is 100/s/90 degrees. If 90s is typical is 100s too slow?

    Steve: Yes sensor is wrapped. Even has the white contact solution between the pipe and sensor probe. I'll try moving the sensor back to where it was. I can't go to far because 3' after the valve is the pump and 1' after the pump is the first T to the first manifold. And correction the valve is not a Danfoss it is an ESBE VRG131 3way with 1" hubs. The Danfoss was something different.

    Please keep the info coming.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    Maybe try a K-type clamp on with your meter and see if the sensor and control are reading the same as your meter. Might not be the same temp, but you'll see if the same swing is going on.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Micmann
    Micmann Member Posts: 6
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    Finally an update to my issue. I'm posting in the off chance there is someone else with a similar issue that needs the help I was looking to find.

    I finally got the system working as it should almost 3 years into running the system. The key was to remove control from the Logamatic R2107 and install a Tekmar Mix Control 360. @Bill_17 really had the key with the Logamatic not having the option to adjust the actuator speed timing. The Logamatic has no such adjustment and was holding the actuator movement too long even though the actuator was within the manufacturer speed spec for the Logamatic. It was bypassing the target temp point every time and then would start hunting again, get close, hold too long and miss and start again.

    The Tekmar 360 control allows the actuator timing to be adjusted. After a week of minor adjustments, I could get just the right speed and it dials right in an no longer continuously hunts. Long story short, do not use the Logamatic to be the brains of a radiant floor heat system. It's too limited. Buderus should really expand the control options of the Logamatic.

    Hope it helps someone.
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,551
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    @Micmann

    Glad you found the fix. Some controls don't play well with others. It also could be that your control valve could be a little oversized and the logmatic ca't catch up with it.

    either way you have it fixed