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Weil-Mclain ECO 70 cycle rate.

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  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
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    yes
  • flat_twin
    flat_twin Member Posts: 350
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    Yes, if 14k btu is more heat than the zone(s) calling can use, you'll see the supply temp slowly creep above the target. On the heating menu there's a "diff on 5" and "diff off 5" setting. When the supply goes 5 degrees over the target the boiler will stop firing and the circulator will continue to run. You may have noticed the circulator running but the display screen was dark instead of blue? That's whats happening, circulator only with no fire.
    When the supply temp falls 5 degrees below the target, the boiler will fire up again. This sequence repeats as long as there is a call for heat from the thermostat.
    Don't alter the diff on / diff off settings.
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
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    Nope. Only creeped up 1 degree over for a few minutes then fall back to target then up for a while.

    Would this be indicative to getting close to that "sweet spot" you guys have been talking about?
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    Not necessarily the sweet spot, just means you can dissipate the heat. If you can go lower temps and still satisfy everything then you are getting there.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
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    Waiting back from flooring guy on estimate for the bedroom. Pulled a piece of the carpet up. Fairly thick. Plus the pad wasnt rubber and was thick as well. Going to put down laminate or vinyl. Have both in the living room and it transfers the heat very well. Should be able to drop the temps a bit more after that.
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
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    So far so good. Ive dropped everything back down more. Max at 161, min at 90, ODR max at 61 and ODR min at -20. Im at that point its getting close but tough to know sometimes. Today it was somewhat sunny but didnt get higher than 15 degrees. Boiler didnt run very much at all due to all the sun my house gets. But last time we had outdoor temps at these settinga when it was cloudy and windy, boiler was running long and harder with short off cycle times long run times. At least the bedroom zone to keep up the with carpet. Hence why i turned up a few degrees in the settings.

    I have noticed shorter cycle on/off times. Propane company delivered early today. Only been two weeks since last fill up. Getting a really bad cold snap so they showed up to top off. I didnt call them. They put in 70.7 gallons. I wasnt surprised byt that ammount but to me seems like a bit for only 2 weeks. I expected less in that time frame. My wife was cooking a lot during that time getting ready for the holidays and I havent used the pellet stove at all.

    Firing up the pellet stove tonight when i get home from work. Low of -10 tonight with high of about 2 during the day tomorrow. The next week and a half forcasted highs wont get out of the single digits with a few in the negatives. Lows looking to be -10 to -20 every night for about a week or so(BRRR). Going to see if using the pellet stove offsets LPG usage especially in the cold coming up. Wont run in constantly. Just on these super cold nights and weekends when its cold.
  • flat_twin
    flat_twin Member Posts: 350
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    I saw the forecast for your area yesterday. Only single digits for us. I'd be curious to see how your boiler performs at sub zero temps without help from the pellet stove but yeah, it's cold.
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
    edited December 2017
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    35 gallons of L.P. a week, roughly equvelant to 25gallons of oil is quite good I'd say! Here in the far NE it's been sub zero every night and single digits most days. I'd say your doing better all the time!

    FWIW, my own home uses a gas dryer and gas range, i operated those two alliances on 2 100# cylinders on a 14month intervals for 4 years. So 50 gallons for over a year. We have 2 kids and my wife stays home and cooks a lot!
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
    edited December 2017
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    > @flat_twin said:
    > I saw the forecast for your area yesterday. Only single digits for us. I'd be curious to see how your boiler performs at sub zero temps without help from the pellet stove but yeah, it's cold.

    Yea not looking forward to it. Don't mind the snow at all. Hate the cold. If my memory serves me correctly, I've seen the boiler rolling along at 35% on the smaller bedroom zone at -5. Actually had a few times where I woke up in the morning and it wasnt running. So I probably do have more room to go. I'm pretty much at the recommended settings for my set up per manual. Other than the ODR settings dropped down a bit.

    The way our house is. 1620 sqft, single story ranch open floor plan, the bedroom zone should still run a bit. Living room prob not much at all. We will see. Will be leaving town for the New Years and heading to CNY to my parents. Going to be frigid.
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
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    > @Solid_Fuel_Man said:
    > 35 gallons of L.P. a week, roughly equvelant to 25gallons of oil is quite good I'd say! Here in the far NE it's been sub zero every night and single digits most days. I'd say your doing better all the time!
    >
    > FWIW, my own home uses a gas dryer and gas range, i operated those two alliances on 2 100# cylinders on a 14month intervals for 4 years. So 50 gallons for over a year. We have 2 kids and my wife stays home and cooks a lot!

    Yea my gas range and tankless water heater doesn't use a whole lot to begin with. I thought it would have been less than what I had last month. Considerable amount of days from Nov 13 till Dec 13 when I got filled I had the boiler settings running extremely high swt and with boost. So I expected a little less. But I'm not outside filling a wood boiler twice a day and shoveling ash.
  • flat_twin
    flat_twin Member Posts: 350
    edited December 2017
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    1 degree this morning with little wind. Supply 126 / return 116. Not used to seeing a 10 degree delta. The condensate pump kicked on while I was looking it over and made me smile. Boiler output 48%. Thermostat at 72, actual indoor temp 70.7, boiler running non stop for the last few days.
    Radiators have a little sting to them if you sit on them in your underwear, LOL! I really enjoy seeing this boiler working as designed. Hope you're staying warm up there near the border.
    Solid_Fuel_Mandjc2232
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
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    -16 when I got up at 730. Fired the pellet stove when I got home from work and I'm glad I did.

    Supply is 155 return 154. Output is at 20%. Only bedroom zone running.

    Now here is the issue. Went down I to crawl space to check temp gauges on the supply and return. All good. Placed my hand on bedroom supply line and it's hot. Placed it back on it just after a loop Ts off of it and disappears into the floor joist under the insulation. Luke warm. Mmmm. Placed hand on another loop T that shoots off of supply and is cold. Well not cold but not even close to 150 swt.

    Shoved my hand up into the insulation and it's not even close to heating warmth. Kept going over till I found where it's warm and it's pretty much right at where one of the smaller loop runs comes off of the main supply.

    Very odd that just about only half is at heating temp while the rest isn't. Both supply and return temps look good both on boiler and on analog gauges on the pipes.

    I see two things. 1.) It's the coldest it's ever been yet and 2.) The pellet stove is running.

    I can't see the pellet stove causing the issue. I also highly doubt there's a blocked or frozen line. Especially with those supply and return temps and no lockout. Very odd.

    Good thing is that wife and I are toasty.
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
    edited December 2017
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    Here are some pictures to help get at what I'm saying. First one is the manifold. Bedroom zone pump which is running is on the left.

    Next one is where the first loop runs off the supply. The other orange hot pipe just below it is one of the returns.

    Third one is still the supply. Right at the point it makes its 90 degree turn back is where I start feeling a considerable temp drop.

    Last one is the other loop. Same colder temp. Other orange pipe above that and not wrapped is another return for that zone thats on the other side.

    Feeling my hand up into the joists I easily found where its supply hot and then room temp.

    1.). If there was a frozen line wouldn't it be much colder return? Not within 3 degrees of supply. And wouldn't low water cutoff kick in if indeed frozen. Or worse yet a burst pipe.

    Supply and return temps all good. Boiler running good. Half of that zone, not so much. Especially the most important room where the thermostat is only has half of it is supply hot. I'm confused.
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    Is this the first time you've ever checked to see if both loops in that zone are circulating? If it were frozen (not likely) then you'd have room temp at both ends. also with those mixing valves do you see the mixed temp the same as the supply temp?
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
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    > @Solid_Fuel_Man said:
    > Is this the first time you've ever checked to see if both loops in that zone are circulating? If it were frozen (not likely) then you'd have room temp at both ends. also with those mixing valves do you see the mixed temp the same as the supply temp?

    No. Everytime I go down and either zone is running it's just habit to feel the pipes. Its the first time I've noticed that the farther end of the supply for that zone is at room temp. Or what I think room temp feels like. But it starts getting cold way before that loop.

    Mixed temp amd supply on the gauges and boiler are pretty close. Nothing out of the ordinary there. Supply and return are within 3-5 degrees.
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
    edited December 2017
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    Possible that there's air in that loop somewhere preventing flow?

    Ran the living room zone for about 10 minutes. All loops appear to be warming up nicely. Just that one end of the bedroom zone.
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
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    Air purged from that loop. Isolated it and was able to get some air out. Still not heating. Contractor said probably a frozen line someone. Looks like it's time to break out the portable heater.
  • flat_twin
    flat_twin Member Posts: 350
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    Since this was an outdoor wood furnace system, does that mean it was filled with glycol and now is filled with water since the conversion to LP?
    Not sure I understand how you could get air out of a frozen loop unless the purge point serves multiple loops and one of them happens to be frozen.
    Can you picture a point in your floor cavities where it actually could freeze? Is it that cold in your crawl space?
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
    edited December 2017
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    I'm not sure if there was glycol or not in the wood boiler system. I asked the previous owner and he wasn't sure either. Contractor who re did my system isn't a fan of glycol in boiler systems.

    When we had the wood boiler it was 86 in the crawl space. One, because half was uninstalled between the joists and two, regardless of the two zone pumps running the wood boiler pump was continuously running 185-190 degree water heating that space with the supply and return lines.

    As of now it's about 60 in the crawl space regardless of the LP and boiler running so not that cold. There are some spaces where the return line or loops in the joists do get close to the joist bays. You can feel some pretty cold air coming in in a few spots so there's a possibility it may have frozen somewhere. Bays are insulted with batt.

    Theres two loops running off that 1 zone. Contractor isolated the one zone that was heating and purged the zone that wasn't. He said he got some air out but then there was nothing. I was down there when he was and there was nothing coming out of the return line for that loop.

    It's a possibility but I can't think of anything else it would be. I have faith in his ability to purge the loop correctly. There's some blockage somewhere preventing it from heating.

    Pressure has remained the same. He upped it to about 20 when he purged it but still wouldn't heat.

    I'm out of town for the weekend so hoping that it opens up and is heating when I get home. Frustrating. Once I think I'm getting ahead theres another set back.

    I may call another contractor I worked with before if it's still blocked and see if they can figure it out.
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
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    Back up and heating.

    Frozen pipe that runs close to exterior wall. Most likely was just a few feet into where the loop starts off the supply. Pulled some insulation back, applied some heat for about 10 min and woosh, water was flowing, pipes were heating up and my auto purge vent and fill were working.

    Woke up this morning and it's -15. Bedroom was a toasty 68 and holding temp. Hopefully I don't have to do that again.

    I'd hate to use sentinel x500 antifreeze. Will try to insulate better next year. Maybe spray foam joist bays and exterior areas.

    Pressure is holding. Didn't see any leaks before covering back up.
  • flat_twin
    flat_twin Member Posts: 350
    edited January 2018
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    Glad you found that. How long do you suppose it was frozen? Bedroom zone heating better than it has for some time?
    Besides eliminating air leaks or adding insulation on exterior basement walls / joists, odds of this happening again can be greatly reduced by dialing down the swt to where it truly runs non stop. I think your max setting of 160 is still much too high. 140 or less is probably where you need to be.

    I've had to make some adjustments due to this extended cold snap. We didn't have temperatures like this last winter to test the lower range of our new boiler so this has been interesting. The sustained winds during this time have certainly been a factor too. Our indoor temps were dropping down to 68 at times with the thermostat on 72. I raised the max temp from 128 to 130 and a couple days later to 131. I also increased the swt overall by raising the ODR min set point from 60 to 63.
    To test these settings I have the thermostat at 75. Indoor temperatures are now 71 or 72 most of the time though it got up to 73 on one sunny calm 12 degree afternoon. As was mentioned in another thread, it's all a compromise. The ODR sensor only knows the temperature, not the windspeed or amount of sunshine or how long your kitchen oven has been on.
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
    edited January 2018
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    It was frozen since Wednesday morning. I had pellet stove going so bedroom zone wasn't running much. Living room not at all. It was -26 that morning. Luckily it was just one small loop on that zone. What makes me think that it was that loop only and not a spot on the living room side was that small opening for the faucet.

    Supposed to get down into the -20s again this weekend. No pellet stove that's for sure. I'd hate to do that again as tearing down some insulation was a PITA. Sealed up a gap where a water line goes out to an outdoor faucet. I'm taking a guess that's the point where it froze.
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    It's surprising at how small of a hole/air leak it takes to freeze a pipe.

    I agree that antifreeze should be a last resort, I see it as a band-aid to a poor construction. Get a few cans of spray foam and have at it next spring/summer. Also blue board works well for joist ends/box sill. If worst comes to worst, slide some foam pipe insulation over that problematic section of pipe.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
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    It was actually a decent size. I can feel cool air in joist bays but when I got to what I believe was the frozen spot there was the pipe and hole. I also have extruded plates in that area too so that prob didnt help.

    I closed the hole up with some caulk and no more draft. The pipe is quite cold as it's pex into some metal before it goes outside so that's getting some pipe insulation.
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
    edited January 2018
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    Well, the "bomb cyclone" is upon us. Woke up this morning and was quite happy to see what my boiler was doing.

    This was just the bedroom zone running. Living room wasng calling and still a toasty 70.

    Mind you the wind chill is about 15-20 below right now. Snow is blowing sideways. Got these numbers so I knocked the max down another degree.
    njtommy
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
    edited February 2018
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    Well I thought I'd give an update. Currently since last pictures I've posted here are my settings.

    Max supply I've lowered down to 150. My mixing valves show a max adjustable temp of 150 so I thought I'd bring it down to that.

    Min supply I've dropped to 85.

    Today is 30 and sunny but windy. At these temps I'll still notice cycling just because of the amount of sum my house gets. But usually around 20 min on 20 off for cycle times.

    At night or when it gets pretty cold anywheres below 20 or so it runs for quite a long time. House temps don't drop and remain pretty stable. Only time It had to play catch up was a clear sunny day. The sun kept this house so warm for so long with the boiler off the floors took a while to heat back up once the sun went down and cooled he house. Both thermostats dropped a degree or so before catching back up.

    Great progress I believe. Even at 10 degrees outdoor the boiler is still in condensing range and keeping house temp warm.

    I'm sure I could keep lowering both min and max swt but bedroom zone may suffer with the different floor.
  • flat_twin
    flat_twin Member Posts: 350
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    Good progress for sure and no more frozen pipes eh?
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
    edited February 2018
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    Nope nothing thankfully. Running the stove hurt that I believe. We had a night where it dipped to -30 and still didn't freeze. I dropped max down to 149 just before bed. It's 0 out now. Supply is at 133 target 133. DeltaT is 3 degrees. Output is 35 percent. Both thermostat zones are holding set temp.

    If you told me a month ago to drop max down 11 degrees to 149 I'd say you're nuts. The house will go cold. Lol. Well. I forgot who said it on this thread but I'm well below 130 swt at 10 degrees and still holding.
  • flat_twin
    flat_twin Member Posts: 350
    edited February 2018
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    How is the propane consumption? The extended cold snap after Christmas resulted in our highest NG bill since replacing the boiler, $275. This month looks a little better at a calculated $235. A neighbor with an electric boiler was complaining about her $800 electric bill. She didn't buy a NG tap in 2016 like most of us. Now she's interested after I told her what we're paying for heating.
  • djc2232
    djc2232 Member Posts: 136
    edited February 2018
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    More than I expected. At 1.99 a gallon from Dec 26 to Jan 26 it was around $340 for that month. We did see some brutal temps and my wife cooks a lot. I was close to empty when the delivery came. For what the price is up here for a cord of wood delivered and how much I burned last year, the conversion to propane isnt that much more. My property doesn't allow for a 500 gallon torpedo tank so this summer im going to get another 100gallon tank. That will give me a total of around 300 gallons.

    Even though I expected to use less I'm still happy that I'm not out splitting wood and waisting a half hour twice a day filling and cleaning an outdoor wood boiler. Plus it's nice to be able to go away and visit family without bothering the neighbor to fill the boiler for me. I'll gladly pay 350 a month during the dead of winter for that. Shoulder season not as much.

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