Updating baseboard heating system

Mothra · July 2015

Bought a home, built in 1895, currently in the middle of a remodel. The propane boiler quit this past winter, so I am looking to purchase new. The old boiler was exhausted into an old existing chimney, but i want to break that dependency, so i was thinking a high efficiency model that i can vent out the side of the house. Since the boiler quit, some of the existing baseboard burst, so i'm looking to replace that, as well, running PAP as supply/return lines. I'm looking for advice on brands to investigate for the boiler and baseboards. I was thinking about frostapex for feeding the baseboards, but unsure about what all 'accesories' i need. Could someone assist me on that, as well?

On a side-note, I'm also installing radiant floor heat via warmboard, so i'm not sure exactly how to heat the baseboards and the radiant floor, if i can do it through one system, or if i should put the warmboard through the hot water heater. Any expect advice would be very much appreciated.

Mothra · July 2015

Also, would i be better suited using 3/4" Frostapex rather than the 1/2"? i was leaning towards the 3/4". thank you, again

Steamhead · July 2015

Where are you located?

Mothra · July 2015

Northwest Ohio. I did a hand calc of my heat loss, and i think i had came up w/ 113k btu/hr. It's a two story, old farmhouse, with a third story attic that isn't heated at the moment. I am planning on eventually installing an outdoor wood boiler, gassifer in an outbuilding, but that is probably a couple years away. Admittedly, thinking about all the infrastructure i'm planning on updating leaves me a little overwhelmed. The hot water sourcing also needs to be updated.

Mothra · July 2015

Should i be looking at radiant panels instead of baseboards?

hot_rod · July 2015

I prefer then look and disability of panel rads, easy to zone with TRVs. They may pair better with the Warmboard.

Best to have a load and design done, this will tell you about which emitters may or may not fit.

Mothra · July 2015

hot rod said:
I prefer then look and disability of panel rads, easy to zone with TRVs. They may pair better with the Warmboard.

Best to have a load and design done, this will tell you about which emitters may or may not fit.

So I should do a room by room heat loss calc and see how each system 'fits'?

hot_rod · July 2015

yes, you need the info for each room to properly size the heat emitter.

Ideally you would like to design the heat emitters to cover the load on design day with 130F or less supply temperatures.

So it is important to select the heat emitters to match the low supply temperature to leverage the efficiency of the boiler.

Mothra · July 2015

Ok, thank you. Tonight i will take measurements and try to come up w/ proper calcs for each room. Thank you, again.

Rich_49 · July 2015

Research Ohio programs or spend the money to have a blower door performed to determine Air changes per hour . This one element is the single most important thing to get ti right .

hot_rod · July 2015

It may be tough to get an accurate infiltration number on a leaky old farmhouse. We came across leaky old homes home that we couldn't even get pressurized with a single blower door wide open!

Ideally you would want that number after all the structure upgrades are done. It sounds like that is an ongoing project?

As such the load number you get now, with the home in the "leaky" phase, will be much different than the number after the tighten-up.

Wood gasification boilers generally have a buffer tank with them as the don't come in a lot of size choices, 40, 60, and 80 K outputs are common. Also, you want to run them hot, and for long cycles, at least a full firebox worth of run time, for best efficiency. Run them full out, store the excess energy in the tank.

Bottom line.. the boiler you calculate now may be oversized after the home is upgraded. With a modulating type boiler you have some "wiggle' room for de-rating them.

Mothra · July 2015

Rich said:
Research Ohio programs or spend the money to have a blower door performed to determine Air changes per hour . This one element is the single most important thing to get ti right .

Do i need to complete this calculation for the basement and attic?

Mothra · July 2015

hot rod said:
It may be tough to get an accurate infiltration number on a leaky old farmhouse. We came across leaky old homes home that we couldn't even get pressurized with a single blower door wide open!

Ideally you would want that number after all the structure upgrades are done. It sounds like that is an ongoing project?

As such the load number you get now, with the home in the "leaky" phase, will be much different than the number after the tighten-up.

Wood gasification boilers generally have a buffer tank with them as the don't come in a lot of size choices, 40, 60, and 80 K outputs are common. Also, you want to run them hot, and for long cycles, at least a full firebox worth of run time, for best efficiency. Run them full out, store the excess energy in the tank.

Bottom line.. the boiler you calculate now may be oversized after the home is upgraded. With a modulating type boiler you have some "wiggle' room for de-rating them.

You are very much correct in saying that is an ongoing 'upgrade'. Right now, i am working on the second floor of the home. All the second story exteriors walls will be spray foam insulated and backed w/ R-19 batting. The plan would be to carry out that method of 'tightening' the remaining house up throughout the process.

I'm trying not to close stuff up now and then have to go back and have to tear holes in the wall/floor once i have my heating situation figured out. I thought i was set on going back to BB heating, well, b/c that was what had existed in the home previously. I am all about the mindset of doing things right the first time, however, and want to make sure i am making the best decisions for the infrastructure moving forward. That led me back to here and looking into panel radiators. I'm pretty sure I could make home runs with all the rads that are needed, if that's the direction i want to go. I'm planning on doing the pex work and attaching the rads, but i don't think i'm skilled enough to install/design what is needed from the boiler, expansion tank, manifold system, etc. To say i'm trying to get my arms around everything is an understatement. Thanks for your continued advice/help.

Rich_49 · July 2015

Although it may be difficult to get the house to -50 Pa , the attempt should still be made . A quality home performance contractor should be quite able to identify glaring trash and temp address those areas to get the house depressurized enough to identify the smaller stuff . Let's face it , Mothra is performing these upgrades anyway . Someone versed in identifying the problems and making adequate recommendations should be done anyway .

Mothra · July 2015

Here is what i got for my heat loss calcs:

Downstairs + Upstairs total

TL Heat loss @ 60F = 73462
TL Heat loss @ 70F = 86683
TL Heat loss @ 80F = 98439
TL Heat loss @ 90F = 110132
TL Heat loss @ 100F = 121943

that was using http://www.usboiler.net/heat-loss-calculator.html

I did not include the third story attic or the basement

Mothra · July 2015

I have the heat loss breakdowns for each individual room, as well

hot_rod · July 2015

lower than the original 113K estimate. Common sizes for mod-cons 80, 100, 110, 120. If you chose a 100 or 110, it would modulate down as then load lessens after upgrades get completed.

There are a lot of features and functions available on boilers these days to help dial them in. I like the Lochinvar Knight as one top brand. The ramp delay function and other features would allow you to easily and efficiently de-rate the output as the home takes it's journey to completion.

Mothra · July 2015

What is the typical heat loss design temperature?

Mothra · August 2015

Anyone have any suggestions for panel rads and the accompanying pex needed to complete the heating circuit?

Updating baseboard heating system

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