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Low Loss Headers & Close Coupled T's

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Comments

  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 13,500
    Keep in mind with series connections off ghe primary loop you have variable temperatures. Of course those temperatures change depending on which pumps are running. The LLH or separator eliminate that unknown also
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • RobGRobG Member Posts: 1,850
    Off topic but what type of combustion analyzers do you folks use over there? Is there an expansion tank in the system from your original photo? What pressures do you operate your systems at? Is your gas line soldered copper? Sorry about all the questions but I am a curious person.
  • ecowarriorecowarrior Member Posts: 24
    Well first off Rob G - you are a distant part of the Maroon Machine? ( well the Yankee Version of it!) I too was airborne back in the 70's. We had some of your Noisy Neighbors visit us (101st Screaming Eagles) and got on really well. Obviously your lot couldn't keep up with us on the runs but we were playing on our own ground! I still have an Eagle Drop Zone Patch in my attic! My little pic is my Regimental Insignia. I was in the REME (Royal Electrical & Mechanical Engineers) - They broke it - we fixed it - you know the drill! Only first line repair for Airborne so very good place to learn how to get on with it & somehow get it going with what ever is available.

    Anyway - back to the boring stuff!
    Our analyzers (mine is a KANE) measure (I'm sure the same as yours) measure CO2 (around 9%) Co in ppm (less than 200) and the Co:Co2 Ratio (les than .04. For commercial Catering air quality in Kitchens also measures CO2 at ground level. I am sure US combustion is the same as ours lol. The ppm & CO/CO2 ratios I mention are the switch off levels for Domestic boilers. We still have millions of Open flues but anything new (in Domestic) has to be room sealed flue.

    Yes traditional pipework is Copper & soft soldered. Sadly now the skill has all but gone as the youngsters use plastic push fit (yuk!)
    Operating pressure on sealed systems say for 2-3 storey house is 1.5 bar so thats 1.5 x 14.7 psi i think?

    Gas pressure for Natural Gas is 20mB and Propane is 37mB. I'm on my third Jim Beam ( yes we have that!) as its late so u can work that one out.

    Yes the original pic of the two boilers on the header are on a sealed system. The expansion Vessel was parked up in the Airing cupboard with the unvented DHW cylinder.
    This US spell checker is driving me mad as you lot cant spell the Queens English lol.
    SWEI put up a line drawing with a PIG make up tank? what is that. Also what is a Furnace?
    When u put an @in front of someones name - what does that do? haven't quite sussed out how the forum works yet. I have read some really interesting stuff on here.
    About 5 years ago I was involved with the Deep Horizon Oil Spill in NOLA. (It was 35 degrees 100+?) and 18 hour sunshine - but not a Solar Panel in sight? Everything is Green Mad here & government tax incentives to have Solar for hot water & Solar for putting back into the Grid?
    It's well late here & I am installing again tomorrow. The older u get the harder it is! I tell my wife ( as I crash out on the Sofa - that) every installing day is like a day at the Gym!
    Talking of Jim - time for a last one! On that note I bid you goodnight brother!
    As a footnote - I am getting loads of help & ideas on here. I am a bit lost with the CCT's now not being close - but its really interesting!

    Never underestimate a REME soldier
  • ecowarriorecowarrior Member Posts: 24
    I note your question on pipework was regarding gas pipe - in house is soldered copper only. Various plastic & steel for outside & underground.

    Plastic push fit is for Central Heating & pottable water only (pottable means drinking)
    Never underestimate a REME soldier
  • SWEISWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    The glycol PIG is something Mark Eatherton introduced us to -- basically an expansion tank used as a source of makeup water-glycol mix, used on the inlet side of the autofill valve.
    ecowarrior
  • ecowarriorecowarrior Member Posts: 24
    SWEI said:

    The glycol PIG is something Mark Eatherton introduced us to -- basically an expansion tank used as a source of makeup water-glycol mix, used on the inlet side of the autofill valve.

    Only residential park homes ( caravans) have antifreeze over here. We are not allowed auto fill it contravenes a water reg. We must have a 100mm (4") air gap between potable (drinking) water & dirty (Heating system) water. We have a short piece of flexible pipe from the mains to the system which must be removed after topping up. (yea rite!)
    Never underestimate a REME soldier
  • SWEISWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    The configuration works just fine with water, and mitigates the risk of flooding.
  • RobGRobG Member Posts: 1,850
    The 101 Screaming Eagles or as we in the 82nd Airborne called them "The Puking Chickens" were not of the same caliber as the 82nd. I'm not surprised that you could out run them. Now if you had been up against the 82nd you cockney bastards would have been left in the dust! :D
    SWEIjonny88
  • Paul48Paul48 Member Posts: 4,492
    Did either of you continue jumping after you got out?
  • jonny88jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
    a quick derail on thread and apologies.On your potable water are you guys using pex.I heard it was mot allowed anymore.again sorry for the derail.Liverpool for next year?????
  • RobGRobG Member Posts: 1,850
    Paul48 said:

    Did either of you continue jumping after you got out?

    I didn't. The army can take the fun out of anything. By the time you got up at 4 a.m. and went through pre-jump then rigged up then sat on the tarmac for hours waiting for the C130 to show up, then got packed in like sardines and flew around for hours "to make it realistic" only to be dropped ten miles away from where you started. It kind of took the fun away. I'll stick to the ground for now, my knees are shot as well.
  • Paul48Paul48 Member Posts: 4,492
    Had a cousin that was with the 101st in Viet Nam. He kept jumping when he got home. He cheated death a few times, but lived a charmed life. Got into underwater construction when he got home, and was bringing home a couple grand a week in the late 60's early 70's. He had a playboys life, and earned every second of it.
    RobG
  • ecowarriorecowarrior Member Posts: 24
    RobG said:

    Paul48 said:

    Did either of you continue jumping after you got out?

    I didn't. The army can take the fun out of anything. By the time you got up at 4 a.m. and went through pre-jump then rigged up then sat on the tarmac for hours waiting for the C130 to show up, then got packed in like sardines and flew around for hours "to make it realistic" only to be dropped ten miles away from where you started. It kind of took the fun away. I'll stick to the ground for now, my knees are shot as well.
    I thought it was just us that did that lol. We used to call it 'Hurry Up & Wait' We practiced a long haul once. I recon we were practicing to drop on Moscow. We to use the Charlie 130 and after an hour or five u cant hear yourself scream & if u need a P - well u aint moving an inch with all that clobber on. Add to that air sickness and I take my hat off to anyone that jumped & actually had some will power left to fight with.

    I did some freefall but paying for it after demob was expensive. My knees are also shot but were revived by some herbal stuff called Animial Flex. I take it every day and can still outmarch my D of E students on their gold awards (D of E is Duke of Edingboroughs awards - they wild camp for 4 days & three nights carrying all their own kit. No small undertaking for an 18 year old these days. (I am 60 this year)
    Always proud to have served Queen & Country. On a trip years back to Disney Land with my kids you yanks made any ex military feel extra welcome.
    I live in Esat Anglia & that was the home of the Mighty 8th AirForce during the war. There was an airfield every 11 miles right up to the coast. For years we had many large air bases here & Americans were part of our culture. We used to host a single guy for Sunday dinners. Thats all gone now & so too the old airmen who used to travel back on reunions etc. There are many american cemeteries here in East Anglia. I suppose your war graves people look after them as they are immaculate. About 10 years ago when these associations knew it was probably their last trip massive long lasting monuments etc were put up all over for the various USAF bomber & fighter wings.
    We also have Duxford Airdrome - part of the Imperial War museum but sponsored still by the USAF. Massive place with megga loads of US aircraft from ww2 onward including B52.

    Someone here mentioned Liverpool (all be it about the football!)
    Most American GI's think they landed in Liverpool - but actually they landed on the other side of the river at Birkinhead. The Town hall at Birkinhead ( A very small town opposite Liverpool) is still supported by the US Army and is the most splendid place with murals of your GI's coming over to help. The place takes your breath away when you enter.
    I think it safe to say we are all on the same side!
    We are voting in a new Government today. Don't know about your politicians but I wouldnt trust any of ours as far as u could throw them.
    Bugger - must have sent you all to sleep with this lol.
    I haven't quite nailed this CCT yet - so I must crack on with gettin my head around that again soon.
    Catch u later as its bed time here!
    Never underestimate a REME soldier
    jonny88GordyRobG
  • ecowarriorecowarrior Member Posts: 24
    jonny88 said:

    a quick derail on thread and apologies.On your potable water are you guys using pex.I heard it was mot allowed anymore.again sorry for the derail.Liverpool for next year?????

    Johnny - no idea what pex is? we use copper steel & plastic. Lead is no longer allowed & has to be removed on refurbishment for both gas & water.

    Never underestimate a REME soldier
  • Rich_49Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,540
    Pex is plastic , cross linked polyethylene , Eco .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 13,500
    edited May 2015


    Here is the product I used on most of my installs below 40 KW. It gives you all the functions in one component. It takes time and fittings out of the cost, comes with an insulation jacket. Multiple boilers could be headed int it also.

    LLH on the end, P/S distribution across the branches. For precise temperature, mixing blocks can be added.
    I've also mounted them vertically, for tight space installations.

    It's not a great air separator, as long as the radiators have vents, and the boilers, it works fine. Or add a nice Discal air scrubber.

    With CCTs remember pipe sizing is critical. The main header needs to be sized for the total flow rate, or you may get flow where and when you do not want it. Check valves are a good idea on S&R as Mark mentioned.

    PEX = PE- polyethylene X- cross linked
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
    RobG
  • MikeGMikeG Member Posts: 154
    It's nice to hear talk from others in the Airborne Community. Turned 60 in Jan. Spent 36 years in the Army some active mostly reserve. Mostly Special Forces and Special OPs. Did a fair amount of training with the 23D SAS Regiment at the height of the cold war and a lot of missons with the 82ND. Retired in 2009 and made my last jump in 2008.
    Gordyjonny88RobG
  • ecowarriorecowarrior Member Posts: 24
    SWEI said:

    The configuration works just fine with water, and mitigates the risk of flooding.

    That's a really neat idea!

    Never underestimate a REME soldier
  • SWEISWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    If we do our job right, we are basically building a sealed system.

    Do we install freon feeders on our refrigerators and A/C units?
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 13,500
    It's tough to have a 100% sealed hydronic system. Air can enter around seals, pump gaskets, and even air vents under some conditions. Also in the case of PE tube, even PEX, O2 molecules can enter and do enter. That fact that the fluid in the system see a wide temperature swing also contribute to the ability to absorb, release and re-absorb air.

    If this were not true we would not be seeing so many issues with magnetite/ hematite in 100% sealed systems. O2 must be present to form that equation.

    So knowing all this it is wise to have the best micro bubble elimination and a means to add additional fluid from time to time.

    A few way to accomplish this "re-fill. An autofill valve, a PIG system, or oversize the expansion tank and provide what Viessmann calls a "safety seal" when they talk about solar systems. Or a yearly check up and manually add any additional fluid required to maintain system pressure.

    This system sludgeing seems to me more prevalent since we started using plastic tube in our systems. I don't recall these problems with the earlier cast iron/ copper systems. Unless those large section boilers hide the problem better, and longer.

    Make me nervous when a new plastic "hydronic piping" product enters the market and ignores the O2 permeation concern, since we have so much proof now of the potential for O2 migration into systems.

    Time will tell, it always does.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
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