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Sump pump without electricity

Bebes
Bebes Member Posts: 61
We were in the path of Irene, and thought we were pretty prepared, until the electricity went off, and took the sump pump with it. I get a lot of water in the basement, so I need a backup plan. I've heard about ways to manually remove the water and wondered if anyone knew how that gets accomplished, without just using buckets and my back!

Comments

  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
    how much water?

    I have a small hand pump that I connect to my cordless drill. I can generally run it for about an hour with the 2 batteries I have (good for a gallon or two a minute). But if you have alot of water you may want to check into a gas run pump..which you will need to run from the outside.
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    Thing is....

    Thanks for responding.  I currently only have an electric drill. I've heard about something called a Venturi pump, I think that's the name, but from what I can understand about it, you have the use your own water to make it work...don't know if I want to do that, although....At the Habitat site I've been working on, they have a 55 gallon drum with a simple plastic pump attached to a hose, so that we can wash our hands...thought about finding one of those. Anyway, just checking to see what the possibilities are, especially since the winds from Irene are still blowing fairly strong. Plus, I have girl scout blood, I like being prepared :).
  • LarryC
    LarryC Member Posts: 331
    Venturi sump pump

    The Venturi sump pumps I am familiar with use the munincipal water system to operate.  If you are on a well, when the well pump stops, the venturi pump won't work.



    The venturi assembly is placed down in the sump.  It has two connections, controlled city water in and discharge out.  There is a float operated valve that turns the city water on and off.  The discharge is usually teed to the existing sump pump discharge with a seperate check valve for each pump (electric and venturi).



    The advantage of these pumps are is no electricity needed.  Disadvantage is that it runs up your water bill.  Typically they are installed to operate if the electric pump fails.
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    edited August 2011
    OK

     Thanks, that's a clear explanation -I don't really like that we use our own water to make it work. Do you know of any nifty gizmo that does the same thing, without the waste?
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    The Venturi sump pumps I am familiar wit

    The only one I ever saw was a brass fitting with garden hose threads on each end. It had lots of holes in the sides. It was machined inside as two nozzles, one making a high speed narrow jet convertng pressure to velocity, and the other shaped to convert the velocity back to pressure. A suction developed where the holes were suckinig water outside the device in where the water pressure from the input forced it all up the output. I.e., no moving parts at all. I think the thermo folks call it an injector.



    They use something like this to get water from the tender of a steam locomotive into the boiler with no moving parts. But they need more pressure, so they rely on the energy extracted by condensing the steam back to water inside the device. I am fascinated by this thing. Think about filling an operating steam boiler when the water supply is much lower pressure than the boiler is running at. No moving parts.
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    I was wondering

    At a site I worked on, they had a 55 gallon drum, with a lid with two holes in it. One held the hose, and the other had a handle that gets pulled up and down, which sends water out the hose. I didn't see what was under the handle, but it seems like I could use that to get the water out. Am I missing something with that idea.
  • Grumpy_Guy
    Grumpy_Guy Member Posts: 17
    How about these?

    You are describing a transfer pump, trouble with that idea is you have to be home.

    http://www.avenuesupply.ca/material-handling/drum-accessories/b-153086?source=google_handling&cid=ppc18619



    How about a 12v backup instead?



    12v backup

    http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_4866_4866
  • Greg Maxwell
    Greg Maxwell Member Posts: 212
    Back up sump pump

    While you may not want to waste water, weighing it against having a flooded basement should clear that up. Liberty pumps makes a nice venturi pump syste. Look it up on their website
  • World Plumber
    World Plumber Member Posts: 389
    Battery backup

    You may want to consider the battery backup pump they can be mounted by way of a saddle just above you pump operate off of a car battery which is kept charged by a trickelcharger monitor. Which has LED lights that light to show the pump has run so you know to check you main pump for problems.
  • Greg Maxwell
    Greg Maxwell Member Posts: 212
    Battery sump pump

    Battery back up may be ok in areas where your power is likely to be restored relatively soon, or where your pumping needs arent too severe, but in the case that you are in a rural area that could be without power for days, a venturi pump would be my choice.
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    OK

    I'm going to check into the web sites posted....thanks for the effort to help me figure this out. I would like to have something I could take to a neighbor's house, if they should need help.I talked to this guy today who suggested a bilge pump. I'm not sure what that is, but I'm also gonna look that up. I'm hoping to find or create something people could get for themselves without spending a lot of money, although maybe neighbors could chip in and share one. What with being in a clay area, lots of people have sump pumps, so..... OK, off to check some things out.
  • LarryC
    LarryC Member Posts: 331
    Out in the country venturi pump

    Greg,

    My thought is if you are out in the country, you are probably on a well.  With no electricity, you will have no well pump, therefore no water pressure to drive the venturi pump. 

    To me, the venturi pump is better suited for folks who are on a municipal water system.
  • Ex Maine Doug
    Ex Maine Doug Member Posts: 162
    Water is Heavy

    Keep in mind the weight of water at 8.35 pounds per gallon.  No what manual method you use a lot of energy is required.  Test your abilities by carrying a 5 gal paint bucket full of water up the basement stairs a few times.  Or get some neighbors and try a bucket brigade with one gallon pails. 

    Then hope the leak is slow.
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    edited August 2011
    I found

    something pretty cool, but I can't seem to find out how to create a hyperlink. Can someone help me with that? And Doug, I actually thought I was going to empty the basement out with only half full fives of water....after one run, I knew that wasn't going to be the answer! Fortunately, that's when the electricity came back on and the pump with it.
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    I think

    it's like the piston pump. I looked more closely while I was on the site today, and it's like the part that makes a hand held spray tank work. Pull the handle out and air flows in, push the handle back in and the water flows out...I guess after a siphon is created. That's more of a question than anything.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Posting a link...

    Highlight the URL in your browser that you want to share, and COPY it.



    Then PASTE it in the body of your post.



    I saw some bicycle powered pumps on line, but they didn't look like much fun.



    I think your best bet would be to purchase a small electric generator. It can then be used for a lot of other functions if the outage is for long period of time.



    The water powered pumps (venturis) are illegal to use in most states due to possible cross contamination, and resource waste.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    water powered pumps (venturis) are illegal to use ...

    If you put an anti-backflow valve in the supply, such as a Caleffi series 573, would such a setup then be legal?
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Yes...

    The backflow preventer would stop any potential wide area contamination, but it could still contaminate the local (house) system.



    In Denver, it is against the law to use ANY water powered devices, for ANYTHING. This means it is illegal to use the water powered garbage disposers that have hit the market (In-Sink-Erator).



    There is one water powered elevator in Denver at the Brown Palace Hotel, and it was powered by a natural artesian aquifer. I think it has long since been replaced with a mechanical elevator. My dad use to work on it when he was an apprentice, MANY years ago.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    it could still contaminate the local (house) system.

    What I had in mind is to put the anti-backflow valve immediately before the venturi pump, so it should protect the local system as well. I would not actually use a device like that anyway because it wastes too much water.



    In the 19th century, some churches used "water motors" to power the blowers for their pipe organs. These were not entirely satisfactory because they could not maintain constant pressure due to water pressure varying. That was in the days before water meters.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Inadequate protection...

    you would have to use either a 1" air gap (virtually impossible) or a reduced pressure principle back flow preventer (EX$PEN$IVE, requires annual test/certification) in order to near compliance, and it still wouldn't be a good idea in my professional opinion.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    OK; I accept your greater authority.

    However if an anti-backflow device such as a Caleffi Series 573 is inadequate for a venturi pump that must be assumed to be immersed in contaminated water, why is it considered adequate when hooked up to my heating boiler that might have automotive grade anti freeze in it installed by some knucklehead, and has been stagnating around for years as part of a legionnaires disease science experiment? It seems to me if the 573 is not good enough for the one, it is not good enough for the other.
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    Hmm

    Um, can the electric generator work when the power is out? Does it store energy or something?
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    I found these directions for

    a homemade bilge pump. They are good directions, and the things he used are easy to get hold of. What do you think about this idea?



    The URL is http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/Boatz/Bilgepump/Bilgepump.html
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    It uses another energy form called....

    Gasoline :-)



    You should be able to pick up a 2000 watt generator for under a grand.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Home Depot has the same thing...

    for around $30.00



    http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202277592/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053



    If the power is out for a LONG time, and it keeps on raining, you;d have arms like Popeye by the time power is restored.



    Now, if you could figure out a way to connect it to a your stationary bicycle, you'd look like the Incredible Hulk when power was restored.



    Heres a link to the propane powered generators that HD offers.



    http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202222977/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053



    DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT USING THIS GENERATOR INSIDE YOUR HOME. It sits outside, and you run an extra heavy extension cord inside...



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Its a matter of degrees of hazard and required protection...

    And there is NOTHING that will keep knuckleheads from doing the wrong thing, hence, hose powered puddle suckers.



    Enforcement countrywide is virtually useless. You can still buy 50/50 lead solder at the hardware store, right next to the venturi powered puddle suckers, but between the illegal non anti back siphon ball cocks and the illegal claws foot bath tub fillers....



    The federal government wanted EVERY water tap to be protected by the RZP back flow preventers, but the Home Builders Association fought against it, and won a compromise, hence the double checks with intermediate vacuum break back flow preventers you see on residential boilers. Commercial boilers, regardless of what's in them are required to use a RZP back flow preventer. The primary concern on commercial systems was the use of toxic water treatment chemicals, primarily chromates.



    Keep the knuckleheads out of your house :-)



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    Mark

    That first link is what we have at the site. And no, I'm not really going for the Popeye look, although I sure did love those cartoons - the way he loved Olive and all.  I keep thinking if I could create a siphon, it wouldn't be so much work, but I can't figure out a point that's lower than the basement. I'd also have to adapt it so I could get the water flowing through the garden hose or something like that. Feel free to let me know if my thinking is off.



    That generator looks pretty cool... How do I equate the 4000 watts into what I need. I have a 150 amp service now, although I'm guessing that's not the point. I guess all I'd really need is some lights and the frig. The stove and dryer are gas...oh yah, the washer needs electricity too...and oh yah, the heat (radiant, in case you forgot). By the way, I finally learned how to purge the lines, raise the pressure, things like that.



    Thanks for your help.

    Barb
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    I do remember...

    That's the one thing that hasn't left me yet....



    The generator would not be capable of running a whole lot of equipment at the same time, but you just keep rotating the devices you have connected to it.



    Watts = amps times volts. So, for example, if your sump pump draws 10 amps at 120 volts, then that would be 1200 watts. On a 4000 watt generator, that would leave a little room for maybe a light or some other low draw appliance.



    Your thinking on siphoning is correct. Would not be that hard to adapt a garden hose to the hand pumps discharge hose.



    Good luck.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    Just so I'm clear...

    In order for a siphon to work, doesn't the end of the discharge part have to be lower than the part where the water is going in?
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
    Absolutely...

    Water seeks its own level. It MUST flow by gravity, DOWN hill. If it could flow up hill, there'd be no need for pump manufacturers...



    If it could flow uphill without pumps, there'd be no gravity, and there'd be no need for transportation systems to overcome gravity.



    Skiing would be REAL cheap...



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • Rich Kontny_3
    Rich Kontny_3 Member Posts: 562
    Resources

      The grandaddy of venturi pumps and products is a company called Penberthy they have a residential line. Also if in the country and you have some elevation to work with one could get crafty and install a syphon type system like they use in septic systems. This would require a storage vessel with the syphon and a lower elevation on you property to discharge it to. If you have these kind of conditions you may be able to run a simple gravity drainage system to a lower elevation.



      If you are in a crowded residential area with fairly flat terrain a genearator and good quality pump are most likely the most cost effective. 
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    I just learned

    about transportation systems using all(most?) of their fuel to overcome gravity. That's why hover crafts are going to be so cool.I should start saving now for one of them.



    Silly me, but I thought I could maybe cheat on the siphon/gravity  thing. The storm sewer isn't far away, but isn't all that far down in the ground. There just aught to be a way to cheat.



    If ya wanna ski cheap, maybe take up cross country skiing. I'm a master at finding the cheap ways to do good stuff.
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    I'm gonna keep that in mind

    I don't have a low spot here........yet, but I love this idea...maybe it's in my future. Does the siphon stay in tact the whole time, or does it have to be primed?
  • Jim Pompetti
    Jim Pompetti Member Posts: 552
    Home Guard

    A great back up pump , uses water to operate . see www.zoeller.com
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    Jim

    Can you tell me what that's called. I didn't see back up sump pump listed. What is the source of the water that makes it work?
  • Ex Maine Doug
    Ex Maine Doug Member Posts: 162
    It is called Home Guard

    Look under Our Products / Specialty Products



    http://www.zoellerpumps.com/ProductBenefit.aspx?ProductID=65
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    I see

    that the name was in the title. Boy, that's a cool web site, the way the stuff floats around with the movement of the little hand. I love the idea of having something automatic, but I'd bet I get hundreds of gallons of water in my basement when it really rains, so I'm not sure that's the answer for me. Hmm, I'm gonna have to think about it some more as to the best answer for me.



    Y'all sure have been helpful. Thanks for that.

    Barb
  • Ex Maine Doug
    Ex Maine Doug Member Posts: 162
    Perhaps a windmill or

    a big dog on a treadmill.  My Uncle in Ontario had a big dog to walk on a dog treadmill which ran the vacuum pump for the cow milkers.

    Since storms are often windy, how about a windmill to run a water pump.
  • Bebes
    Bebes Member Posts: 61
    Doug

    Ya know, I was thinking about making a windmill as part of a plan to generate my own electricity...I love these "rural" ideas......how would that work for the sump pump?
This discussion has been closed.